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Lpool all this is public information:
www.ecita.org.uk/ecita-members/all-members
Says 23 though and not 18.
Like I said there are consumer groups and forums involved not just ECITA, but their website has lots of info!
Are you going to vapefest? Puffing away on an iStick right now.
Why not name the directors on the VIP/Vapestick board and on ECITA board then? Who are the other board members? I'm guessing a board votes right and so do members? Why make out it's two ECIG companies influencing this when there are, what 18 or so independent companies involved. You know how trade organisation works?
The regulations are set by the European Union under the guise of the Tobacco Product Directive and not by ECITA. There are other trade and consumer groups, around 10 or so in Europe besides ECITA, MEP's, MP's, Lords, doctors, professors on one side and MHRA, big pharma on the other who have all influenced the outcome of the Tobacco Product Directive. I'm guessing big pharna won as the TPD was approved in trialogue.
You are right on a few points though. It isn't cool for a vaper to and there is a risk that there will be a rise in black market trade. But this has been happening with tobacco and booze for years. Regulation was inevitable. Way too much untested crap being pushed.
ECIG's UK brands do plus clearos. Both brands have liquids available in WH Smith. VIP in Asda (Walmart UK) and Vapestick in Tesco. Not sure about FIN or Victory or if they sell bottled liquid. Can't find any on the websites.
Victory was hardly successful in its own right or a recognised brand before the acquisition route. It was a small fish in a competitor shark tank. The company was not expanding. Without the acquisitions there would be nothing to invest in. You think investors would pay 0.01c for what they had to offer?
Victory past revenue before acquisitions
August 14, 2013 10q
Last 6 months 2012 - 511,601
First 6 months 2013 - 1,581,536
Q2 - 711,845
November 14, 2013 10q
Q3 - 833,257
May 6, 2014 10k/a
2013 - 3,102,729
Q4 - 687,666
Should include Vapestick partial revenues
Victory acquires Vapestick end of December 2013 and FIN in Feb 2014
May 20, 2014 10q
Q1 - 4,138,540
Victory acquires VIP in April
Aug 19, 2014 10q
Q2 - 11,287,723
Notice the spike in sales?
I'm not sure if all the brands are selling the AVS. At least one if not two of the UK brands have sold tanks and liquids since 2013.
I've seen multiple posts here saying Fields was responsible for getting FIN into Walmart. FIN were in Walmart for at least 1 year before Victory/ECIG acquired them.
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/fin-e-cigs-at-wal-mart.378151/
Techmine had the OTC listing not Victory and Brent was involved with the process according to the SEC filings.
June 13, 2013 8k
http://irdirect.net/filings/viewer/index/1398702/000135448813003442/
Item 1.01 Entry Into a Material Definitive Agreement
On April 2, 2013, we entered into a Share Exchange Agreement with Victory Electronic Cigarettes, Inc. (“VEC”) and the shareholders of VEC to acquire all of the issued and outstanding common shares of VEC. On April 15, 2013, we entered into a First Amendment to Share Exchange Agreement with such parties which extended the closing date of the Share Exchange Agreement from April 15, 2013 to April 30, 2013. On April 29, 2013, we entered into a Second Amendment to Share Exchange Agreement with such parties which extended the closing date of the Share Exchange Agreement from April 30, 2013 to May 15, 2013. On May 14, 2013, we entered into a Third Amendment to Share Exchange Agreement with such parties which extended the closing date of the Share Exchange Agreement from May 15, 2013 to May 30, 2013. On May 30, 2013, we entered into a Fourth Amendment to Share Exchange Agreement with such parties which extended the closing date of the Share Exchange Agreement from May 30, 2013 to June 19, 2013.
June 28, 2013
http://irdirect.net/filings/viewer/index/1398702/000114036113026640/
http://irdirect.net/filings/viewer/index/1398702/000114036113026638/
http://irdirect.net/filings/viewer/index/1398702/000114036113026636/
http://irdirect.net/filings/viewer/index/1398702/000135448813003674/
http://irdirect.net/filings/viewer/index/1398702/000135448813003666/
To summarise, I'm not sure why you are dwelling on the past. New management, new structured debt and a new future to look forward to.
Honeycomb777 - every long appreciates your passion and support. But I think you are expecting way too much in Q1. They had zero cash to reinvest according to the 10k. With investment only coming in Q2 I don't expect to see the performance you are hoping for.
"This new capital allows us to eliminate the toxic, discount convertible notes from our balance sheet, affixes our capital structure and provides the working capital necessary to fund our growth,” said Dan O’Neill, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Company.
We may not know specifically, but the message from the CEO and Executive Chairman spelled it out fairly clearly.
Investment only arrived mid Q2 and the company was in dire trouble before then. I'm not expecting a miraculous turnaround in Q1 or Q2. Still see this as long term and I feel this is supported by the 36 month term.
Please don't start with the huge revenue predictions already :) Before we know it everyone is adding another 10% here and 10% there. Massive expectations too soon.
1) they were not financially stable to expand or buy product going into Q1. You saw 10k right?
2) management has focused on debt and refinancing. They have not had chance to address growth in Q1
3) too high expectations lead to high disappointment
4) $1m advertising program doesn't = 30% growth in a Q.
The biggest hurdle now achieved and IMO was more important than whatever Q1 numbers turn out to be. Would you not rather see stability for Q2 and Q3?
Long term play.
Seanboy, good to see you are still here and admit calling it wrong. Bet some others wouldn't have stuck around.
Time to focus on the long term. Peace.
How you can you say this is fact?
If you look at the store finder and check the locations they cover all manor of socioeconomic groups. The blending boutiques look to be testing or expanding in the more affluent group. Could be influenced by existing data profiling?
Even though the UK is small, there will be different buying patterns on a micro-geographic scale. That's why the supermarkets are selective in choosing locations for stores. There is an audience for who wants the best looking, latest, cheapest, safest, easiest to use and most readily available.
Think food:
Convenience
Best packaging
Fancy supplier or chain
Budget
Organic or sustainably sourced
Gluten free - allergy foods
ECIG are finding their place in the market and I see this as a way of competing with the vape shops without competing head on.
Didn't say you did. Read the post again. There are a few vape shops near me and they are not great. Perception is personal. What works for your business may not work for someone else. But you're speaking with a factual and authorative tone and what you say can't be proven or disproven. I'm skeptical through my own experience of seeing local vape stores.
Malls are packed with shoppers. Perhaps different shoppers than come into your shops? I said previously, their cash in the bank on aquisition paints a different picture.
The difference is class and an understanding of where the industry is going. Typical vape shops are run by opinionated people who vape, but do they have business sense? Sorry, but I think most vape stores are a step up from street traders dealing in watches. The blending boutique is something totally different.
Would you rather go in to a blending boutique and be greeted by someone who looks like the guy in the video or go into a sleezy looking vape shop run by a pot head look-a-like, eating a burger and in need of a wash? I'm not saying all vape shops are all like this before Lpool decides to jump in with another unprovable comment of how his stores are better.
Beginning to sound a lot like jealousy rather than investment discussion. I'm seeing a lot of negative comments and no evidence to support them.
SeanBoy not necessarily. Note due yesterday but Friday is not the best day to release positive news. Usually bad news is put out on a Friday. Let's wait to see what Monday brings.
At last a realist. Really hope everyone reads this and digests before speculating revenue at half a billion $ in Q1. It will be Chinese whispers all over again.
Isn't the general rule, bad news Friday and good news on a Monday?
With reviews, the top spots are usually reserved for affiliate partners and paid advertisers! You can see the ADs for the top brands on the website, also look for tracking codes. Those top spots are not what I see as popular brands in the UK. Competitors can also post negative reviews. I wouldn't base market position or put any faith on what is displayed on review sites. Too much manipulation.
Beware of the famous statement of ignorance "If it's posted online then it must be true."
That link is not an ECIG brand. Similar name but wrong brand.
Lpool it did not come from the acquisition deal, it was already in the bank at time of acquisition. It is declared in the 10k as 'Assets Acquired' meaning it was company money. There was no dilution, it was cash before acquisition. So again, how does a company have $14.6m in the bank if they are not profitable?
http://irdirect.net/filings/viewer/index/1398702/000161577415000652/
Page F18
Misleading article. In UK ecigs with nicotine above 20mg to be licensed as medicines.
Under 20mg to be regulated by European Tobacco Directive.
Would your views on ECIG change if they did or are you firmly opposed to this going anywhere?
You do realise how much 'cash' VIP had in the bank on acquisition 1 year ago? $14.6m. It didn't miraculously appear out of thin air. It came from sales and PROFIT not debt. You don't have a balance like that if the company isn't profitable. Have you not thought perhaps that the group is expanding rapidly and therefore more cash is being spent to secure it's future?
No one knows
1) what they have in development
2) which brands are growing
3) how cash is being spent, perhaps on development?
4) if new management have a different vision and direction
5) how much is attributed to research and regulation
You seem to have a very narrow view from the perspective of operating two? competing shops. As you have declared your $2m profit, can I ask if you made that within the first month of opening or did it take time to build the sales? Think we know the answer already. And how many shops/kiosks VIP opened recently? You don't expand something if it doesn't work. I'm not speculating on Q1 or Q2 numbers, but I wonder what the longer term picture will look like.
RAYCHAZ - it was Xmas through January, plus they were first the run an AD showing vaping on TV. Do a search on Google.co.uk for VIP advert and will give an idea of the storm it created. They've been running ads since 2013.
I've not seen or heard of anything of US marketing for ECIG apart from general PR. Need to up their game or find a less expensive way to market to compete with Vuse.
RAYCHAZ : ECIG brands have run ads on TV. VIP was on prime time TV slots on the UK's channel with highest viewers. It was the 6th most complained ad of all time too. There was a mass of PR, featuring in national news both print and media.
Recognised house name? A comedian on TV was making a joke about the AD so it made an impression somewhere.
Vapestick ran a style icon campaign and jumped on London Fashion Week.
The UK ECIG brands are active in marketing and recognised brands.
Lpool, It looks like ECIG have done mods before http://www.vipelectroniccigarette.co.uk/sirius-overview.html
Vapestick and VIP have sold tanks for ages.
IMO - very good analysis and forward thinking. What people want and what they are able to purchase through legal methods may not be the same.
What are you basing your figures on?
You are saying they are going to surpass their projected annual figures in Q1. There is no PR from the new management to support your optimism is there?
Toons39, reason is it's questionable if the products offered by these stores will comply. Part of the reason regulations are coming us because these shops are springing up and owners are blissfully unaware. Lpool may be more switched up than most but I doubt he has paid to test the thousands of products he stocks, Chinese certifications don't count...
They do already. ECIG had variable voltage, steel and glass tanks.
http://www.vipelectroniccigarette.co.uk/photon-pro-vv-kit-p-298.html
In part I agree with you. But I question if 25% QoQ growth is remotely realistic.
25% growth on $5m yes, 25% growth on $20m no. Growth % should be proportionate to revenue. Such high percentages are harder to achieve on high revenues. Despite new markets and opportunities my expectations are lower. I'm coming from the angle of ECIG now functioning as a real business selling products and not Brent's model of growth through acquisitions.
Hope you are right though!
Lpool - so what are their sales figures? You have 3 stores and they have 100+ right? You don't expand something which isn't working. Sales staff looked bored you said. Are you watching them all day? At every shop? Your comments are hardly conclusive.
Honeycomb777 - agreed. Some of the posts speculating revenues are still including Ten Motives.
Important to remember though, ECIG was mainly formed from aquisitions. The aquisitions were all established brands and will have already experienced an accelerated growth period.
I would be happier to see stability, security with some continued growth over insane revenue projections.
Lpool - online, kiosks, vape stores are NOT tracked sales channels which is why the sector is difficult to accurately value or to qualify the true number of vapers. If one's opinion is that ecommerce/vape stores generate more revenue and profit than TRACKED sales channels then data is meaningless in terms of measuring market share.
PlanetWK : store finder list here http://www.vipelectroniccigarette.co.uk/storefinder/
It's radius based and mostly shows kiosks/stores. Big presence in Ireland too.
Vapestick also have same store finder.
TESLA777
I would expect so as products do have shelf dates but depends on supply agreement and the multiple/chain. I'm sure Walmart U.S. does operate this way but I think Walmart U.K. do not. Listing fees per SKU and product take backs might explain a lot.
Lpool, VIP had $10m in surplus cash at time of aquisition, so not sure about your Rev calculations. Wonder how the goodwill was based? Perhaps future revs?
PlanetWK - agreed, they had around $10m in surplus cash at time of aquisition, not debt!
You don't get $10m in surplus cash if you're not profitable.
Filing at time of aquisition.
http://irdirect.net/filings/viewer/index/1398702/000135448814002102/
It's the way the corp financed the deals which has made investment 'appear' less desirable.
ECIG have multiple brands going places.
Honeycomb777 - agree. Seanboy should perhaps look at each deal more closely and do a little a research on each company.
Out of all the aquisitions the most up front cash was paid to VIP, plus further promissory notes.
So what does that say?
Vapestick was way more shares. Forget the PR saying what each company was bought for.
You need to understand the structure and view the entire trade history.
Historically the stock traded at around the $2 mark before the OTC listing coverted to ECIG stock. Previously this was Teckmine Industries. It shot to $20 in the space of a month but that has never been the avg. stock value. Wish people would stop quoting $20, it's hardly representative.
There many factors for causing the stock to spiral since late last year. New management fixing those issues and restructuring debt will help prevent the scenerio repeating itself.