Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
I guess we're done here.
Some people trade on charts, and don't keep abreast of the news. Some just guess. Some might even speculate that a bigger fool will pay .13 next week.
Why would anyone pay 11¢ for a 10¢ stock?
Or does Final not mean final?
Final Cash Distribution and Dissolution.
See 8K. 10 cents.
I knew where to find it, and Googled it for you.
"Senior Subordinated Notes due August 15, 2012 "
http://www.trenwick.com/NoteholderInformation.htm
Sold half mine for $.25 today. Don't have a pressing need for the cash but I'll take $.25 cents. My math told me fair value was in the low $.20s and I could get to $.40 if I really stretched my estimates but I sold the 5k shares @ $.25 when I went to sell at the bid and they got hit at $.26 instead and immediately kept 5k shares for bid @ $.25. I'll hold the rest to see what happens.
I had a note that the bonds were due on 8/15/2012 but I cannot find in my notes where I had that from.
I am still watching, but I liquidated at .18.
I needed the cash for another purchase.
You still around on this?
The bid for all of March was sitting on .17 and I noticed today that it hit $.25. The current B/A is .25/.88 with 5k on both.
No news that I can find. No trading on FINRA, etc.
I may try to sell what I have and move on.
I finally found those things on FINRA.
It doesn't even look like those banks are still in, according to the outstanding debt numbers. FINRA doesn't show a coupon.
Not many positive ways to look at it, but if we hold the only senior notes and TALLCO goes BK, then we should own the shell. I am not looking forward to a share distribution. I held this shell long enough and there just isn't enough R/M potential.
Nice support at 16 cents. As I was saying......
Weren't you talking to the JL at some point?
If you chat with him again, try to find out if TALLC is paying any coupon, and if the JL is placing that on account for us, or if he is using it to pay expenses. Hopefully, by now, our expense ratio should be a bit smaller, and they would be saving up the coupon payment. After all, that is all they have left to manage.
If they aren't paying the coupon, wouldn't the notes be in default? I haven't read any default notices. As I mentioned before, my GMAC's were cheap in '08. They remained cheap for a while, but they paid the coupon every quarter, and was just happy to collect.
We should have about $1,200,000 saved up from coupon payments to date. That is 39 cents a share.
Here's the math:
5 million in face value at 8% for three years.
3 million shares O/S
It would be nice if the JL doesn't keep all of the money. I'd like to think that all of their expenses were prepaid, long ago; and that they are keeping our money somewhere in the back office.
Weren't you talking to the JL at some point?
If you chat with him again, try to find out if they are paying any coupon, and if the JL is placing that on account for us, or if he is using it to pay expenses. Hopefully, by now, our expense ratio should be a bit smaller, and they would be saving up the coupon payment. After all, that is all they have to manage.
If they aren't paying the coupon, wouldn't the notes be in default? I haven't read any default notices.
Back in 08?
My GMAC's were trading at 15.
They are trading at 94ish now.
Paid me coupon all the way.
Welcome to the world of crazy Junk Bonds.
I tried to get a get a recent quote on the CUSIP. No transactions in the last year per FINRA. The last trade was in 2008 on the Senior at 10 or $100/$1000. That is worth about $.09/share or what we were trading at.
I found that there was $79M of senior bonds issued initially and $103M of junior bonds. I have no idea if that is still the amount but I am going to assume so.
Lets say after liquidation there is $20M left (yeah!) The $20/$79M is worth about 25% of face so we'd get $687k divide by 3M shares and were worth $.22. Doing the math on this makes me want to sell @ $.30 if I could.
That's a nice bit of sleuthing.
If you buy a bond, you would have priviledged access to the financials. If you can get a quote on the cusip, you should have a good idea what this is worth.
Any quote over $50 on the "senior" should make this at least 4 bagger from our entry.
50 basis points on a bond means you get $500 on a thousand dollar note or bond.
2.5 million of bonds would be worth 1.25 million.
Divide by three million shares. 41 cents a share for the senior, and the junior won't probably pay if the senior is junk.
Oh yeah, I forgot. I've been trying to find out a little color on the type/date of the bonds that LSRAF holds on Trenwick America. Well, Trenwick has two levels of bonds out; a Senior Bond due 8/15/2012 and the junior bond due 2/15/2013. I'm trying to find out how many total senior bonds were issued by Trenwick to see how much debt they have. The CUSIP I have on the Senior bond is 895285AC8, junior bond 895285AB0.
I didn't see it was only on 100 shares until later. Stupid me I know on these I should check first.
I wonder if there is some gamesmanship going on with some holders of illiquid securities as I've noticed a few stocks that are pretty illiquid (DIMEQ another one) that had a big tick up at the EOD on low volume and wonder if someone is juicing the share price so they don't have a margin call.
That 87% uptick in share price didn't tickle your funny bone?
100 shs. Some people got no sense of humor, eh?
I was busy trading other stocks, and saw it pretty quick. I was hoping they filed an 8k.
No such luck.
BTW, a new 52 week high can stir up interest, even in a lagger like this. Highest it has been in 2 years, at least. I might have to use the profits to stir up MLDS.
Dang your post on here and the share price got me excited. Nothing on the sec website. Last Jan. When I talked to the guys who is trying to sell our bonds he was hoping for a resolution in 2011, but was not going to promise anything.
Here we go!!!
Green paint.
Is that you Jester?
100shs..
Or was that the famous Freddie Fatfinger with the wrong symbol?
I just did a bit of digging, and found this.
http://www.trenwick.com/NoteholderInformation.htm
It seems to indicate maturity dates of the notes. It would also seem to indicate that the JL has priviledged access to financials, and would have reason to indicate "that they will only be redeemed or sold at a small fraction of their aggregate face value."
I don't believe they will be "redeemed" at all. They will more likely be "distributed" from a BK court estate. You don't redeem senior notes at a fraction. You sue for BK if face value is not paid, and you are lucky to get a fraction. That's why they call them "senior notes," ie. they have a primary claim in a BK estate. A few BIG BANKS will apparently be the lead plaintiffs, and our distribution will be syncronized with theirs.
OTOH, I found no new BK filings from TALLC. As we should know, an insurance operation in runoff is not a good sign. Typically, they aren't writing any new business in a struggle to stay solvent.
Its truly a black box. Late in 2010 I spoke with one the guys liquidating LaSalle Re but have no idea on what anything is. He told me similar to the announcement that the only asset is the $5M in bonds due to TALLC of which 2.5M is senior and 2.5M is junior. I assume the juniors are worth $0. Then you try to figure out what a % recovery is for the senior bond and the time to final distribution for a potential return %.
There are only 3M shares so right now and the ask is sitting at $.15. That means you need to break in you need the bonds to be worth $450k. Now further assume that since this is risky you demand a return of 30% and you expect this to complete by Dec 31, 2012 which means the bonds need a return of $667k and it ends by 2012. Assuming the junior bonds are worth $0 the senior bonds needs to be worth $667/$2,500 = 26%. So if they can get a 25% recovery its worth my while, that said I only own 11k shares at $.08 on average.
Leftover assets?
Does any one has any link or info about the balance sheet or accounts
As per the Nov 10 annocument (http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1001384/000095014210001720/form8k_111910.htm)
Based on the potential receipts from the final liquidation distribution from TGL to LSRH, and including funds currently in hand in LSRH’s bank account, less liquidation costs and expenses, the JLs believe that a final residual distribution should be available to the Series A Shareholders. This final distribution is however unlikely to be significant given that substantially all of the Company’s assets were previously distributed to Series A Shareholders in July 2008.
So two items are critical here
1)the balance sheet
2) Potential receipts from the final liquidation distribution from TGL
I am not expecting much from the point #2 as per the announcement TALLC Notes have a combined face value of $5 million, it is expected that they will only be redeemed or sold at a small fraction of their aggregate face value.
Whoops you are right. My bid was at $.07 and I got filled at $.065.
Sure it wasn't .065?
Curious because I got 300 at .065, and there was a transaction for 2000 at .065. Also below my bid.
Seems I got 1700 shares at $.07. Below what my bid was for.
It looks like our trades sparked some computer action. I doubt any trader with a human brain would have stopped pushing it up. We tend to get emotional when a stock doubles up from the bottom. The computer just spits them right back out. They can afford it. They don't have brokerage commissions to pay and they have access to all the trade data.
It appears that I got 300 shares at .082. Wowee, I forgot that I had this standing bid out there. Also got the 500 shares yesterday.
12 cents on the ask. Amazing. Even with the likelyhood that the notes are lowballed, this is an amazing bargain, IMO. Easy four bagger. Order in.
I assume its the hedgies who owned it before the $10 payout. He told me that looking at the shareholder list so hedgefunds did very well on the payout. My guess is that they are just holding the rest and have no reason to sell.
The Bid/Ask on this is ridiculous.
I wonder who actually owns these shares. Even if they get to $5 a share.... I won't be getting any serious windfall.. No real action for a few years.
Temp-
I think we are the only people on this board. To let you know, I actually had a nice conversation with the guys doing the liquidation. Very nice and complementary fellow. Wouldn't/Couldn't say much but I appreciated that he would call me back personally from London by way of a few emails.
I would expect resolution within the year based on the fact that they appeared to be trying to sell the bonds and not wait for TAC.
I was specifically looking for information on the Trenwick Litigation Trust that was established when TAC was sepreated from Trenwick. Quite often these are funded and then the monies are returned upon completion of their litigation. The Litigation Trust sued in 2006/2007 and lost and was set to be disbanded no later than Oct 2010. I assumed this was funded by legacy shareholders and not TAC as the original documents were not clear. The rehabilitator said that he knew nothing about it and therefore it must be a TAC item. Unfortunate for Trenwick/LaSalle shareholders as I was hoping that maybe there could be a few million more but now doubtful.
Temp-
I think we are the only people on this board. To let you know, I actually had a nice conversation with the guys doing the liquidation. Very nice and complementary fellow. Wouldn't/Couldn't say much but I appreciated that he would call me back personally from London by way of a few emails.
I would expect resolution within the year based on the fact that they appeared to be trying to sell the bonds and not wait for TAC.
I was specifically looking for information on the Trenwick Litigation Trust that was established when TAC was sepreated from Trenwick. Quite often these are funded and then the monies are returned upon completion of their litigation. The Litigation Trust sued in 2006/2007 and lost and was set to be disbanded no later than Oct 2010. I assumed this was funded by legacy shareholders and not TAC as the original documents were not clear. The rehabilitator said that he knew nothing about it and therefore it must be a TAC item. Unfortunate for Trenwick/LaSalle shareholders as I was hoping that maybe there could be a few million more but now doubtful.
Also, If you didn't know...
Canopius looked like geniuses in late 2007.
The Syndicate reserves were held in British Pound notes. They continued to hold them, and squandered the exceptional gains. The managers don't seem to understand diversified risk. That is probably why there isn't anything else besides these Tallco notes.
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/BP/M
The web page cleary states the the bondholders are not permitted to disclose the financials.....
As far as I know, parts of Trenwick America have been in recievership since the first seizure, but I don't remember which parts.
The JL said that they could not get a satisfactory return on the notes at current market (if any) and that is typical of most distressed notes even after a company rehabilitates. Since TAC is in runoff, the workout should be approaching finality.
As I said before: 2.25 million of the notes were "senior secured" so that much is almost guaranteed, or we will own Trenwick America.
I contacted them to try and get financials. Unfortunately, no response. Please note that that link is to Trenwick America the new part of which we are not involved.
Further digging led me to find out that atleast part of Trenwick America is in receivership/rehabilitation by the State of New York. My guess is that if they were to try and sell these bonds they will not get face value of $5M.
I hope but I am not so optimistic.
Did you see this link I posted at TWK board?
http://www.trenwick.com/NoteholderInformation.htm
I sure would like to see what those financials look like. If they are making any money, this stock should have value. About $1.66 ($5 millon/3 mill sh)at redemption of the notes. The notes also should have a nice interest rate.
OTOH, 5 million might not be enough to pay the liquidators for sitting on their ass for the last 3 year as Canopius raped the reserve.....
Tallco owns TARCO. Tallco owes on the notes. Tallco became independent of TWK in the BK negotiation, but absorbed the liability on the notes. I don't know who owns Tallco, but I know we don't. The owners who owe us $5 million (plus) would get any gain on sale.
Gotcha.
Is there any way the commons get anything?
I believe the only thing with any assets is Trenwick American Reinsurance Co (where the $5M in loans is sitting). What happens and I doubt it but they sell Trenwick American ReIn for a positive book value of $10M. LSRAF would get their $5M loan plus interest back over 3M shares and lets say $2. Who would get the $10M of positive book value once it was sold.
Would that flow to LSRAF holders as they are preferred or does it go to the Trenwick common. I need a map of who rolls up to whom.
(Note: I don't think there will be a positive book value otherwise the business would have already been sold.
Actually, there would be a few years accrued interest on the notes, so $2 a share could reasonably be expected. $3 might be a stretch.
As I mentioned, there was no mention of default on the notes.
Where does one see a tender offer for $1.00 per.
There are 3M shares outstanding.
Only potential assets may be $5M @ 100% recovery.
100% recovery would be $5M/3M = $1.66/share.
How does someone get $3.
What do you see?
"TALLC Notes have a combined face value of $5 million, it is expected that they will only be redeemed or sold at a small fraction of their aggregate face value."
That is a strange comment, since 2.25 million of the notes were "senior secured" notes.
If TARCO goes bankrupt, then the JL is in the best position to take control of the company. Senior debt holders are the ones who hold the cards in the BK court.
The Junior Notes might bring less return, but only if TALLC and TARCO are defaulting? The 8k says "runoff"
The Mayans said no such thing. They merely made counting marks on stones which indicate the movements of the heavens. They succesfully predicted solar and planetary movements for over five thousand years.
It is a bit curious that they no longer believed they could accurately predict after that date, but the "end of the world" is only the assumed reason. Of course, if the planets stop revolving around the sun in the current order, it could be disasterous to earth's orbit. No specific reason for the failure to predict was ever given.
But the world will end on December 21, 2012, well ahead of that distribution.
So say the Mayans, anyway.
Final distribution possible by year end 2012 (11/19/10)
http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1001384/000095014210001720/form8k_111910.htm
Seems funny that they only are offering to buy up 50% of the shares. I think I'll pass on the tender offer.
I'm thinking closer to 3 dollars. But at this point who knows.
Followers
|
5
|
Posters
|
|
Posts (Today)
|
0
|
Posts (Total)
|
118
|
Created
|
11/03/08
|
Type
|
Free
|
Moderators |
SECURITY DESCRIPTION: LaSalle Re Holdings Ltd, 8.75% Series A Preferred Shares, liquidation preference $25 per share, redeemable at the issuer's option on or after 3/27/2007 at $25 per share plus accrued and unpaid dividends, with no stated maturity, and with distributions of 8.75% ($2.1875) per annum paid quarterly on 3/1, 6/1, 9/1 & 12/1 to holders of record on the date fixed by the board, not more than 60 days or less than 30 days prior to the payment date. In regards to payment of dividends and upon liquidation, the preferred shares rank equally with other preferreds and senior to the common shares of the company. See the IPO prospectus for further information on the preferred stock by clicking on the ‘Link to IPO Prospectus’ provided below. LaSalle Re Holdings Ltd has merged into Trenwick Group Inc. (NYSE: TWK) effective 9/27/2000. |
Stock Exchange | Cpn Rate Ann Amt | LiqPref CallPrice | Call Date Matur Date | Moodys/S&P Dated | Distribution Dates | 15% Tax Rate |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
OTOTC Chart | 8.75% $2.1875 | $25.00 $25.00 | 3/27/2007 None | WR / NF 1/29/09 | Suspended! 3/1, 6/1, 9/1 & 12/1 Click for MW ExDiv Date Click for Yahoo ExDiv Date | Yes |
Notes: Nov. 29, 2002--Trenwick Group Ltd. announced today that, in accordance with the terms of Trenwick's current credit facility and forbearance agreement with its letter of credit providers, Trenwick has elected to suspend, with immediate effect and for an indefinite period, dividends or distributions payable on the outstanding Trenwick Group Ltd. Series B Cumulative Convertible Perpetual Preferred Shares, LaSalle Re Holdings Limited's Series A Preferred Shares and Trenwick Capital Trust I 8.82% Exchange Subordinated Capital Income Securities. |
================================================================================================================
4.
Timing and quantum of the initial preference liquidation dividend to the Company’s Series A Preferred Shareholders
Under the Company’s constitutional documents, the Company’s Series A Preferred Shareholders are entitled to receive:
i. a preference dividend in a liquidation of $25 per share; and
ii. accrued but unpaid dividends in a liquidation prior to payments to other shareholders.
The Funds available for distribution to shareholders of the Company will be paid to holders of the Company’s Series A Preferred Shares in priority to the Company’s common shareholders to the extent described above.
The initial distribution to the Company’s Series A Preferred Shareholders will total approximately $31.5 million. This equates to $10.50 for each Series A Preferred Share of the Company.
This preference dividend is payable on July 28, 2008 to the holders of Series A Preferred Stock of record on the books of the Company at the close of business on July 17, 2008.
5. Estimated timing of further dividends to the Company’s Series A Preferred
Shareholders
This initial distribution to the Company’s Series A Preferred Shareholders represents a distribution of substantially all of the assets of the Company.
However, the Company still has a small number of contingent assets which may result in further realizations for the estate in the future. Depending on the outcome of the realisation efforts, an additional distribution to the Company’s preferred shareholders may be made prior to the formal dissolution of the Company.
It is anticipated that any further distributions to Series A Preferred Shareholders will occur within 12 months, although the exact timing and the quantum of any further distribution is uncertain.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1001384/000095014208001284/form8k_070708.htm
================================================================================================================
Volume | |
Day Range: | |
Bid Price | |
Ask Price | |
Last Trade Time: |