There's some boys looking in Florida...for a body.

Just a quick update for anyone who discovers this board.

There are only 2 of the old chip Sega's still in operation as far as I have been able to ascertain. Both of these machines are in south america and are in a currency which does not allow one to make a realistic amount of profit to make it worth while to travel there to play them.

The bet60 system will work on these machines and guarantee you a cash flow of 30-50 credits per hour, but the value of those credits is far too low to make it economically viable to play there.

Also note, the number of operating Sega Royal Ascot machines worldwide has dropped considerably as the machines become more problematic as they age and parts and technicians are harder to find. The value of the total machine itself which was once as high as $2 million is now around $60,000.

Perhaps if the machines discover a new market, such as China, they will experience a surge in popularity again.

As of the end of 2005, no known crack for the current generation chip exists.

Robert May

Hi again Robert!

Well last night i went to the casino not to play, just to watch this time.Anyway friday isnt the best day to play cause there are few people playing. Saturday is the best day!

As i had said u on my last post i wrote down the numbers with the right quinellas for you to take a proper look.

here they are :

32, 3, 2, 29, 7, 20 / 3,4 - 22
16, 10, 12, 77, 3, 2 / 2.5 - 13
16, 2, 3, 21, 8, 33 / 2.5 - 6
16, 19, 3, 10, 2, 22 / 3.5 - 2
17, 6, 3, 8, 3, 15 / 2.5 - 7
41, 6, 2, 37, 3, 31 / 2.5 - 7
3, 28, 7, 25, 2, 26 / 1.5 - 2
6, 2, 3, 35, 36, 38 / 2.3 - 2
3, 22, 3, 25, 5, 8 / 1.5 - 6
24, 2, 3, 10, 18, 28 / 1.2 - 18
3, 15, 23, 20, 2, 11 / 1.3 - 30
3, 2, 23, 18, 8, 25, 2 / 5.6 - 10
3, 2, 23, 19, 18, 3 / 3.4 - 17
11, 3, 9, 5, 59, 3 / 2.3 - 11

ok...what do u think of this?
just a few note : yesterday it wasnt a busy day so it wasnt much money entering the machine.

tks once again and regards from this tiny country, Portugal.
Nuno.

Quinella odds are calcualated on the Sega by multiplying the actual single horse win odds together and dividing by 2.

For example, 2 horses that are 10-1 and 20-1 would result in a quinella of 10x20/2 therefore = 100

Of course on many of the smaller odds horses the displayed number has been rounded off. Meaning that a 3-1 horse and a 10 to-1 horse may not actually pay 3x10/2= 15 it may pay anywhere from 12-18.

With the numbers provided in the races you displayed, the longest payout combinations were 20x30 which pays 300. There must be other times then when the numbers on your machine shift and display the traditional and more common odds scenarios.

Best of luck to you

Robert

Hi Robert!

First of all let me say the denominaton coin : well Portugal is one of the countries wHere "Euros" are in the market. Lets say 1€ is a little bit higher than the dollar. 1 credit = 0.5€ OR 50cents(a little more than 0.5 dollars).
The maximum number of bets per buttom is 99 credits.

I dont want to contradict you but ive seen big quinellas such as 756 or 609 for example.And the 609 one was the "winner" last time i was in the casino!!!i figured out it was because that night was a very very busy night(large amonts of money entering) in royal ascot, which was indeed, was crowed at least.

Anyway im planing to go there this weekend so ill write down the races with the quinellas and then post here for u to take a look(please).

Once again thanks for ur time and kindness.

(im sorry if my english isnt the best, im still improving)

Best regards from Portugal again,
Nuno!

hmmm,

after looking at those numbers i can see that there would be a great opportunity to hit several quinellas inn the 30-50 dollar range. Also it is interesting to note that your machine will never hit a 999 payout. The longest quinellas you will have available to you will be about 350.

The good news is that this machine is a lot easier to win smaller amounts on a regular basis, the downside is that you will rarely if ever win several thousands in a day off those numbers. I would imagine even a $1k day is rare, but a $300 day should be almost a given.

What is the maximum number of credits you can bet on each button? and what denomination coins are you using?

Robert

welcome dark,

i'll get a look at those tonight for you.

Robert

hi guysss!!! im new in this board and in this forum in particular!!
first of all, greetings from portugal!!!a nice country, it worth a visit!
anyway ive been reading ur posts and discussion about this game which is really interesting and fun...which i also play at my local casino here in lisbon and im also trying to find a way to "beat" the machine. Anyway i noticed that on all ur explanations about bet60 or fivein/fiveout u give examples of horses with 4 odds. Well, in this machine i play horses with such odds dont exist at all, only with 2,3,5 and more.I ruled out bet60 and another bet"something" cause they dont work at all.
I was kind of hopping u could give me an hand on this one. Ill write some races down for u to look at them(I havent written down the quinellas but if u need them,which u probably will but i forgot to write the last time i was there, say something for me to write down next time ill go back there).
(p.s.- my machine is a 1991 one and in the low corner on the right says 1991,1998 i think.)

race 356 ) odds : 6,27,3,6,3,24
race 357 ) odds : 8,3,22,17,2,30
race 358 ) odds : 11,2,13,6,7,10
race 359 ) odds : 27,3,2,8,21,20
race 360 ) odds : 27,14,10,2,3,23
race 361 ) odds : 3,12,8,3,9,11
race 362 ) odds : 10,55,20,3,2,11
race 363 ) odds : 16,17,53,8,3,2
race 364 ) odds : 8,7,3,3,10,18
race 365 ) odds : 9,3,8,3,6,75

greetings and thanks from Portugal!:D
NVM

the glow stick website is back up and running if anyone is still around

www.econoglow.com is the address if you want to check it out

Robert

Daniel,
i can't seem to get you at your old email address. If you check this board get intouch with me pls.

Robert

Also note that my email million@canada.com is no longer active due to the overwhelming volume of request i receive for gambling/gaming info, you can now contact me at robertmay@gmail.com if you have any contract requests or consulting questions.

Robert

Lots of new Sega email this past month. Not sure why because the game is quite old now and has not been changed or updated. As yet the current generation chip has not been cracked despite countless hours and tens of thousands of dollars. No flaws, no loors, no eggs, it appears that many have given up research on this one now for better projects.

Robert

ROBERT,
I play the Royal Ascot Special machine in Gatineau, Quebec (casino du lac leamy) and I checked whenever the game switches screens after a race... It says, Copyright Sega 1991 ... I've got several results from races and i found it very odd and interesting that twice, two horses with 27 odds won and both those times the quinella odds were 60. I think this may indicate something, maybe the machines have not all been updated. Anyways, I am not a premium member (this is "happy hour") so PLEASE contact me at spellcaster_es@hotmail.com as I will not be able to reply in this forum, however I will be able to read replies... You can also give me your email to make communication more easy.

[horse odds] [winners] [quinella odds]
[1][2][3][4][5][6]
4 17 18 3 2 27 --- 6 & 1 --- 60 **********
8 2 4 5 10 52 --- 2 & 3 --- 4
4 4 14 9 4 6 --- 5 & 4 --- 16
4 15 7 12 4 3 --- 5 & 1 --- 7
20 13 2 3 10 20 --- 4 & 2 --- 19
7 4 9 3 4 10 --- 6 & 2 --- 22
69 3 3 8 5 6 --- 2 & 4 --- 12
5 5 4 10 3 64 --- 1 & 5 --- 7
4 7 17 4 9 3 --- 4 & 6 --- 6
27 9 2 4 27 3 --- 1 & 4 --- 60 ***********
83 4 4 6 4 5 --- 2 & 6 --- 10
4 4 4 16 4 10 --- 3 & 4 --- 30
9 5 4 28 3 4 --- 2 & 5 --- 7

As of today, no old chips are remaining. There are still gaming techniques that you can use, but no more guaranteed wins.

I have hundreds of thousands of pages of data on the current generation chip, but it appears bulletproof at this time.

If you are going to beat the game you best have a friend with a key.

Robert

Now who is going to be the watchdog over at sungold? Did you ever buy back into that stock?

Hi NS,
It took two months to receive the payout? Were they hoping you would somehow lose it back in that time? I have looked at a couple of websites for betting on the markets but have been sceptical of moneylinks, payouts and cashouts.
Take Care NS! :^)

I just got a call regarding that. He was an interesing character, I'll give him that, even though we didn't see eye to eye on many issues.

Did you hear that Kehler died yesterday?

My payout from themn did arrive eventually once I threatened to sue them and to post on every message board how they screwed me over.

Still no sign of my payout from crediplay.com
I have emailed the company a few times and even emailed the IR but have not received my money or even a response.

I think they might be a scam. PLAYERS BEWARE.

I have just talked to Imakemoney and he is also very upset with crediplay.com He is going to have them removed and blocked as a Paypal merchant if he does not get his payout soon. Not good for crediplay.com but that is what happens when you rip off gamblers.

I have been playing games for $$$ at CYOP systems (CYOI) website for a while now and have won money.

www.crediplay.com is the website they have games at.

However, I have recently discovered that they are much more willing to take your money than to give payouts. Anyone else have experience with this site? It is a 7 cent stock out of vancouver, which may indicate the potential for it to be a rip off.

I asked for my payout, it has not arrived. If I do not get it this week, I will submit a report to all of the gmaing and casino scam watchers and blow the whistle on these crooks.

Hey, I'm back and I am ready to make some serious cashola.

I wish I could count cards better. Years of studying advanced mathematics and I still can't do it well enough.

Like to enhance your Blackjack skill also? Here you go. Blackjack Chat.

Stop on by and let's share our experiences.
If we can gain just one edge to bring to the table it will be worth it!
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/board.asp?board_id=1581
You can practice your strategy at this link
http://www.blackjackontheweb.com/blackjackgame.htm

What happened to the machines in Turkey?

http://www.euroslot.com/ci/pages/issues/yr99/september/horse.tpl
Under starter's orders

horse-racing the casino way

Often referred to as the sport of kings, horse-racing can perhaps claim to be the king of gambling as it has the distinction of pulling in the biggest crowds in sporting history and of being the most popular form of gambling around.

It should come as no surprise then that horse-racing games have developed from a series of arcade machines, such as those made famous by the Whittaker Brothers, into the large multi-player machines found in gaming establishments today.

Sigma, Sega and Konami are the three main companies who have exploited the gamblers' love of horse racing and all have developed multi-player machines which use the latest technology to bring mini racetracks and thumb sized thoroughbreds to life. It's big business as well with these huge multi-players being installed in the slot parlours of casinos all over the world

Sigma made huge strides in the development of the game with the introduction of its Derby series of horse-racing machines. The demand to develop the existing machines was perhaps highest in Japan where horse-racing machines were already popular in arcades but the public was crying out for an improved version. With its finger very much on the pulse of its home market it was perhaps inevitable that Sigma would pioneer the developments in this particular field.

Kohei Okumura of the Japanese-based company explained the evolution. He said: "At Sigma we were driven by a desire to recreate the atmosphere of real horse-racing and bring it into the slot world. This basically involved two things, firstly making the game more realistic and secondly getting more players involved in each race. When you think that the first video game was developed in 1972 and the first Invader game was invented in 1978, it was quite a revolutionary step for us to introduce our first Derby machine, which was installed in Shinjuku, Japan in 1975."

Given the technology around at this time these games can now be viewed as perhaps a bit primitive. The tracks were oval and the moving horses generated excitement but the realism of the action and the betting systems were both restricted by the technology of the time.


The demand to develop the existing machines was perhaps highest in Japan... With its finger very much on the pulse of its home market it was perhaps inevitable that Sigma would pioneer the developments in this particular field.

Although it was Sigma which installed the first multi-player horse-racing machine, it was Sega's World Derby that raced off with the distinction of being the first horse-racing machine to use the free track system where the carrier is situated on the underneath of the track.

The idea of this system was to change the mechanical approach to the games already on the market, make the action a bit more realistic and so give the player more excitement. The company also adopted the method of using computer graphics with the game allowing manufacturers to translate what was happening on the track an output it on a projected television screen. This allowed the game to become more accessible to a wider audience with the introduction of up to 23 player stations.

"This had two main advantages," explained John Murphy, Managing Director of Sega Gaming Technology (Europe). "At any moment if any of the players can't see what is happening on the track then they can watch it on the screen but it really gives the whole area the feel that something exciting is happening and so draws a crowd to the machine."

A sophisticated sound system, which allows an announcer to start and finish the game as well as call out the results, makes the game even more appealing to players and observers alike giving it an interactive feel.

Sega's Royal Ascot was introduced in 1991 and was very popular in Japan. It was introduced into Istanbul and then later to Monte Carlo before gaining popularity throughout Portugal, Italy and then all over the world. It was the success of the Turkish market, which really put the company on the map until the Turkish government closed down all casinos a few years ago.

The game itself has 50 horses of which six are randomly selected to take part in the race. The race lasts for one and a half minutes with over 16 million potential outcomes, the results of which are of course generated randomly from within the machine's computer software

Players are given the option of placing a bet win or a quinella and are given odds for each horse, which change depending on how many times it has been selected and how it has performed.

"This is where a player gets a real buzz from Royal Ascot," adds John. "They know that they can have a big win as the machine doesn't use controlled software. The horses are placed on a process, which generates an exciting free style race with different leaders at different stages. After a certain amount of time the software will examine the percentage of the game, which for Royal Ascot is usually around 92 per cent, and will then recalculate the odds on certain horses to try and bring it back in line with the desired percentage. It's an interesting game from the player's perspective as it offers win odds of 99 to one and offers quinelle odds of 999 to one, which do come in quite frequently."

It is a testimony to the game that people actually watch the form of the horses and take notes on the outcome of the races as with real horse racing. It had also been known in at least one casino in Istanbul for casino operators to construct an amphitheatre around the game with a bookie offering lower stake levels to the crowd on the back tiers.

John's brother, Carlton, who is Sales Director for Sega in Europe, the Middle-East and Africa added: "It is very much a gambling game first and an amusement game second and I think this is what makes it so successful."

The two versions Royal Ascot and Royal Ascot Special are basically the same game with the same functions but have been wrapped in slightly different clothing. The can both go up to 23 players although the Special is slightly smaller with a slightly better sound system. The company is actually working on a new version, although Carlton admits that he is nervous to use the word 'improvement' as it is always difficult improving on a game which has proved to have such a winning formula.

"They have to be quite simple games though," says John. "If a player doesn't understand what a game is trying to tell him in the first minute or so of coming into contact with it, then that player will probably walk away and never come back. I think Royal Ascot does this very well it catches the players attention with the excitement of what is going on, keeps the attention as it is easy to play but then retains that attention as you do have to think about what you are doing. No Royal Ascot has ever been taken out of a casino and no operator has ever complained about its performance."

Since giving birth to the multi-player horse racing game, Sigma has been continuously looking to improve the performance, entertainment value and realism of its own simulated racing game and has released six main versions along with a few special editions.

The latest spectacular machine is the Derby MK-VI exp, which has attempted to take the realism to another level with the addition of diorama trees, lawns and fences along with advertising billboards where the casino can advertise special events. There are 10 horses in each field with three types of betting: win, quinella and bracket quinella. Operators have the option of selecting either long races of up to three minutes or short track races of around two minutes. Players can also take advantage of a horse number forecasting system to help them with their betting.

Sigma has a host of extras on this machine with five CCD cameras broadcasting the action on a 50 inch projection monitor accompanied by satellite surround sound to create what the company describes as 'a vivid sense of live presence'. The sales team happily describes the machine as 'even more entertaining than a day at the race track.'

Kohei says: "Markets have opened up for the mutli-player horse-racing game all over Asia, Europe, America and basically all over the world. Demand for the game is actually increasing, which is probably due to the fact that it is so exciting and attracts new players as well as experienced gamblers."

As these markets have opened up a further runner has joined the field with Konami Gaming coming up with its own designs and ideas with what should be popular on the multi-player horse-racing circuit.

Konami's GI Classic Winds and GI Classic games, which aren't available at the moment as the company continues its quest for a Nevada licence, were first released onto the market in the mid nineties after the company realised how popular the games were in Japan.

"Konami realised that outside Japan, there was quite a large untapped market for what was essentially a horse-racing gambling machine," explained Konami's Product Manager Graeme Noble. "We set out to try and bring a horse racing game to these areas. We included an entire year's racing in the software for our game and so over a period of time players could watch the form of a horse and predict how it was going to perform. GI actually means Group 1, which is the name given to races with the best horses such as with the Derby. The GI machine can place horses into the different groups, G1, G2 or G3 depending on their capabilities so it really is as close as we could possibly get to simulating real life horse racing."

The Konami games are also able to change many of the race conditions including the length, distance and direction of the race, as well as whether it follows an inner or outer track. As with the other latest multi-player games, the horses follow a free track system allowing them to change lane and speed throughout the race, the number of horses which run is also variable. The odds are adjusted in the same way as a fruit machine adjusts itself, depending on how the players are doing. If people are putting in a lot of money and not winning then the odds will improve across the board so that sooner or later the average pay out is kept to the level at which it has been set.

Players place their bets on touch screens and can follow the action on a series of small screens complimented with a 3D sound system with full race commentary. Players can also access a full history of the horses' performance which acts like a racing newspaper.

The technology involved in these horse racing machines makes them quite expensive and both the operators and the manufacturer needs to invest quite heavily in them. So isn't it something of a gamble for a casino manager to decide to buy one?

"There is an element of fear in the eye of most casino operators when they first receive the machines," says Carlton Murphy. "The machines are big, they take up the space of around 12 slot machines and can look quite daunting. If you're a slot machine manufacturer or operator you can take more of a risk. More people would be willing to give a slot machine a trial as it takes up little space and is easy to transport. We do understand the operators' concerns as when they invest in a horse-racing multi-player, it is probably one of the casino's biggest investments you'll make and if it fails it will cost you a lot of money. The bigger the investment, the bigger the gamble but Royal Ascot pays back very quickly and is a very successful machine. In the Italian Casinos it is well known for the Royal Ascot to have all 12 seats full from three in the afternoon to three in the morning. How can you argue with a machine, which is that popular? Casino managers are also sometimes put off by the technology involved but once we put a machine in, it works. It is a highly reliable product but like anything mechanical it will need some servicing which we will happily provide."

Horse-racing multi-players may be for gambling first and amusement later but there is no getting away from the fact that they are very entertaining with crowds screaming at the horses as they jostle for position and cheering as their horse comes in. You get the feeling from watching them that the players are so absorbed by the game that they have forgotten that the horses are only bits of plastic being randomly moved around by a computer in a casino. Whichever manufacturer you go to, the multi-player horse racing game is a very stimulating experience. Revenue which pleases the casino manager, payouts, which please the player and a level of excitement which would be hard to better at a real race ground. Casino managers worldwide are under starter's orders.

http://www.urbino.net/
http://www.urbino.net/v1/
"Would denomination make a difference in Ascot's payout?"
Introduction

The gaming machine market is not a single homogenous mass where one set of rules or criteria may be universally applied to determine what "makes" a machine appealing or how it should be positioned within the Casino environs.

What works in one location may not work somewhere else and vice-versa. Many Americans are surprised by the lack in Australia of three reel slots such as "Liberty Sevens" or "Red, White and Blue" and the proliferation of multi-line, multiplier games with seemingly unintelligible paytables.

A look at the different markets may to some extent explain these differences.

In the United States, particularly in the Las Vegas strip market,the market consists of infrequent visitors or tourists who stay for a few days and who will make a return visit in the following year or the year after.

These people prefer gaming machines that are easy to understand and less inhibiting to trial. Thus, their game preference may be likened to the "Space Invaders" or "Pacman" games of several years ago. Easy to learn, simple to use and not overly challenging.

In Australia generally over recent years and typified by the New South Wales Leagues Clubs, the market is quite different. These "local" clubs have been in existence for many years and have had access to gaming machines since 1956. They cater to frequent repeat visitors who quickly tire of any one product and who "demand" continual change. With the increased computing power in todays gaming machines that has led to nine line games with special bonus features, animated graphics and sound blasters. Todays Australian gaming machine player quite simply would be as bored with a three reel stepper as would todays Nintendo child be bored with "Space Invaders".

This is in some ways akin to the fact that most "local's Casinos" in Las Vegas only offer 20% to 25% of their gaming machines as spinning reel slots with the balance being video pokers.

Video Pokers include a greater element of "skill" and with favourable paytables offer exceptional return to player percentages. Thus these games are more complex and less like the three reel simple Spinning Reel game found in Las Vegas strip tourist Casinos.

In Australia the same did not occur with Video Poker for a variety of reasons including the fact that "card games" were prohibited from New South Wales Poker machine clubs and that Poker in itself does not have the same history or tradition as it does in the United States.

Thus, the first basic fact with regards to gaming machine placement is apparent. In a sophisticated local environment where the market does not continually change, it is necessary to continually update and enhance the product offering. Las Vegas strip Casinos merely continually change their clientele rather than needing to change the gaming machine product. Emerging "locals" orientated Casinos and gaming machine venues need to be mindful of this and not be driven by the gaming machine manufacturers who may want to supply machines based on their own requirements, but should rather heed the wants of their customer base.

The second issue is that of the "optimal" gaming machine return to player percentages. Dollar games should be "loose" or the hold on "nickels" (5 cent machines) should be "x" (y or z).
Utility of Games

Lets explore this and bring a bit of mathematics into the argument.

It is a combination of many factors which serve to make one gaming machine more appealing than another, however from an economic rationalist perspective, price is a key factor in the choice of a gaming machine or any game of chance. Price is not simply the game hold or return to player level but incorporates a range of other factors. For example in a traditional gaming environment, comparisons are often made between Casino games using purely the house advantage as an indicator. Thus games such as "live" Keno with a hold of 25% to 30% are categorised as "bad bets" in comparison to games such as Craps which have a house advantage of 1.4% or lower. On a pure pricing basis such comparatives are clearly erroneous just as they are when referring to gaming machines.

This is because we have forgotten to include in our calculations factors such as decision rates in a comparable time frame, minimum bet requirements and the variance of a player's result.

Comparing the games of Craps and Keno.

GAME CRAPS KENO
House Advantage 1.40% (Pass Line) 25% (Single Number Bet)
Min. Bet Requirement $5 $1
Decisions/ Hour 50 12
Theo. Loss Rate/ Hour $3.50 $3.00

Taking into account the variance of a single game for each specific game type, it would be anticipated that 95% of the players actual results in a one hour time frame would fall in the following approximate range.

GAME CRAPS KENO
95% Confidence Interval + $67 to - $74 +$6 to - $12

Thus in the purely economic rationalist terms of maximising profit or minimising loss, a player's utility is maximised by playing Keno as opposed to Craps, even though a perfunctory comparison would indicate that Keno was a much worse bet.

Of course the decision of whether or not to gamble and which game to choose is generally not governed purely by economic rationalist views , and may also include such factors as an entertainment and excitement value "rating" which would push, for many players, Craps to the forefront.

I have used here an example from the non-gaming machine area because it aptly demonstrates a point which needs to be made. A comparison of gaming machine hold percentages alone is not a true indicator of "price".

Factors which also need to be included are:-

i) minimum denomination
ii) hold percentage
iii) game speed
iv) hit frequency
v) game variance
vi) income

as well as many other subjective factors which determine appeal.
Price Sensitivity

To explore this further on a gaming machine basis it may be of interest to consider a hypothetical $1 spinning reel slot machine with a high hold percentage. The characteristics of this hypothetical game are:-

Denomination : $1
Hold Percentage : 15.0%
Game Speed : 400 to 600 decisions per hour

For the moment we will exclude hit frequency and game variance and just concentrate upon theoretical loss rates.

Theoretical player loss = $1 x 400 x 15.0% = $60

Theoretical player loss = $1 x 600 x 15.0% = $90

Thus we have a theoretical loss of between $60 to $90 per hour played with only one "coin" bet per game. If our hypothetical game has a hit frequency of 15% and a variance for a single play of 35 then 95% of a player's results would fall within the following approximate range after one hours play at 400 decisions.

95% confidence interval : + $180 to -$300

Quite clearly the level of expected loss and the players likely actual experience at this hypothetical game is not overly appealing and it would be unlikely to stimulate much play.

However, it is important not to over-generalise and make a broad statement that a $1 gaming machine with a 15% hold would never work. Certain gaming machines like Sega's "Royal Ascot" may produce reasonable returns at high hold percentages due to the fact that game speeds are much lower (30 decisions per hour).

Another factor which is important to realise is that the gaming machine player market is reasonably well segmented. This allows our look at pricing to be extended (firstly holding the game hold % as a constant).

Game Type S.R.M (Spinning Reel Slot Machine)

Table One

Min.Denom. $0.02 $0.05 $0.1 $0.2 $1.0
Hold % 15% 15% 15% 15% 15%
Decision/ hour 400 400 400 400 400
Theo. Loss Rate/ hour $1.20 $3 $6 $12 $60

Note:
Min. Denom. = Minimum Denomination
Theo = Theoretical

If the average coins (credits) played per game is increased and the number of lines is increased then the theoretical loss rates will increase proportionately. If for example a player were to play two credits per line and three lines on average then their expected loss rate would increase by a factor of six.

Thus we would have:-

Table Two

Min.Denom. $0.02 $0.05 $0.1 $0.2 $1.0
Factor 6 6 6 6 6
Theo. Loss Rate/ hour $7.20 $18 $36 $72 $360

Clearly unless the relative value of a $1 wager was very low it would be difficult to stimulate play at much more than a 10 cent unit under the conditions cited. Yet generally not everyone wants to play a five cent machine (for ego reasons, return, gambling to win or perception) thus several factors may be altered on higher denomination machines to improve appeal.

Firstly, the game speed on these machines may be reduced. Secondly, the number of lines played may be restricted (often $1 plus Spinning Reel Machines are single line multiplier games). Thirdly and often used in conjunction with point two, the hold percentage for a $1 game may be significantly reduced in order to improve player return.

For Spinning Reel Machines in Australia the following breakdown of hold and denomination provides a general approximation of the market and produces the following loss rates at 400 decisions per hour.

Table Three

Min.Denom. $0.02 $0.05 $0.1 $0.2 $1.0
Hold % * 15% 12% 10% 8% 5%
Factor 9 7 5 4 2
Theo. Loss Rate/ hour $10.80 $16.80 $20.00 $25.60 $40.00

* +/- 3%

The use of a factor, which essentially is at the control of the player, has merely been used to demonstrate a "likely" actual rate of loss. In this case, the factor used has been based upon the average number of credits wagered per game. Eliminating this we have:-

Table Four

Min.Denom. $0.02 $0.05 $0.1 $0.2 $1.0
Hold % 15% 12% 10% 8% 5%
Theo. Loss Rate/ hour $1.20 $2.40 $4.00 $6.40 $20.00

This illustrates the fact that much of the success of "tokenised" one cent, two cent and five cent machines to Australia can be traced not only to their low price but also to the ability the player has to either increase or decrease the number of lines and credits played per game when winning or losing. Also having a large number of credits for a small stake massages the player's ego and provides good value for money. Often these lower denomination games are designed for the player seeking to "buy time" and thus also incorporate interesting and novel feature games to amuse the player (on certain winning games free spins are awarded, or second screens appear with treasure chests to be picked etc).

On higher denomination games the same may not be true as these players are more likely to be gamblers who prefer double-up options, jackpots or increased standard prizes.

Another point of difference between low and high denomination machines may be hit frequency and variance. For lower denomination machines where players are "buying" time the average machine configuration appears to consist of a hit frequency of around 5% to 15% and variance of around 30 to 150 may be used. Higher denomination games may be configured with a hit frequency of around 12% to 20% and variance of 10 to 50.

Thus a chart looking at these factors for each game denomination may look something like this.

Table Five

Min.Denom. $0.05 $0.01 $0.2 $1.0 +
Hold % * 12% 10% 8% 5%
Hit Frequency ** 5-15% 15% 15% 12-20%
Variance *** 30-150 50-160 10-50 10-50
Other Multiline
Multiplier
Features
Multiline
Multiplier
Features Multiplier
D/Up Jackpots Multiplier
D/Up Jackpots

Note D/Up = Double Up

* +/- 3%
** +/- 5%
** approximate only

Does this provide a "magic formula" for game design? Probably not, but it does provide some guidelines as to game choice by denomination.
Denomination and Placement

Denomination choice can only be achieved by market segmentation and analysis. Based upon price alone and with products being virtually identical the market will sensibly gravitate to the lower priced option.

It is important then to differentiate products and analyse, what the market will bear, competitive activity, price/return perceptions and the overall strategic goals of the operation. Thus in a monopolistic situation with high demand levels it would not necessarily be appropriate to offer one cent and two cent games. However in a competitive market, an operator is less able to direct demand and must be willing to provide what the market requires.

On a highly simplistic basis the machine player market is pyramidal. A large number of people at the "bottom" are prepared to pay a low "price" for gambling as entertainment. Moving up the pyramid the number of players is fewer and their propensity to gamble higher. These players are the machine "gamblers" with profiles closer to table game players in many ways than to the bulk of the machine market.

Sub-segments clearly exist in all areas, with frequency of visitation not necessarily linked to the above. Thus while $1 players are important, frequently visiting five cent players may be as well. The Pareto effect is also quite evident within the machine market where roughly 20% of the players generate 80% of the revenue.

Thus in terms of determining the optimal denomination mix for an establishment, whilst there is no simple answer of "x" percent five cent machines; "y" percent ten cent machines, there is the sound business principle of considering the market you are in and adopting a minimum "price" which suits; and then structuring from that base according to market size. Thus in a highly competitive, local market, 60% to 80% of machines may be "low (base) denomination" with the balance being "high denomination".

Placement and layout of gaming machines within a facility is also a critical issue and is much like the product placement of items within a supermarket. Impulse purchase items are placed near entry/exit points with essential items or consumables as far away as possible to encourage and direct users past other items. The analogy of the supermarket is "milk at the back and sweets and tabloid magazines at the checkouts".

For the gaming machine venue this may mean "low" denomination machines at the rear with higher denomination jackpot games or novelties like oversized machines (Big Berthas) in high traffic areas. Provided activity can still be created as a first impression of the facility. As machines on ends of rows often perform well due to higher comfort it may be that these machines could have higher hold percentages at the same denomination. Smaller carousels whilst space inefficient in comparison to long rows or banks of machines offer greater comfort and opportunity for social contact. Thus players may gravitate to these and consequently revenue may be higher.

Facilities for players such as Cafes, restaurants, bars, toilets, change outlets and lounges should also be positioned to maximise revenue generating opportunities.

High denomination machines should be situated to maximise player comforts (close to coin outlets and toilets) or if these are $1 novelty games in areas with high traffic flows.

Other factors which should be considered when designing a gaming machine layout are: machine height, signage and machine numbers in distinct areas. Gaming machines are often available in three heights in Australia. "Low Boys", (0.9m), "Casino Box" (1.17 m) or "Club Box" (1.51m) above their bases.

"Club Box" machines are ideal for walls whereas "Low Boys" or "Casino Box" machines may be used more centrally as these afford clearer views across the gaming floor (particularly of other gaming machine product). I am not suggesting here that all machines should be low, however for visual reasons it is desirable to break up an area while at the same time allowing clients to see other machines behind banks or carousels.

Signage within machine areas should be designed to create atmosphere, attract and inform the machine player. Ideally players should easily be able to identify the games minimum denomination and if a progressive or mystery jackpot is included the amount and type of jackpot as well as what they need to do to win.

Signage should where-ever possible (subject to Heritage constraints) be "electric" adding to the vibrance and atmosphere of the area.

If discrete areas of machines exist it is also useful to remember that creating a "winning" atmosphere requires a critical mass in terms of play and thus machine numbers. It appears that approximately 40 machines is the minimum necessary to stimulate this.

Other subjective factors which need to be assessed when considering an individual gaming machine are; Top Box and belly panel artwork; game graphics and sound.

These are entirely subjective, however, it is important to recognise that trial will be stimulated if a player is initially attracted to the game and this is where artwork and the use of sound comes in. Distinctive colours and imagery will catch the eye while game sounds will also attract interest. The game itself and its graphics will however ultimately determine a games success. The graphics need to be easy to recognise and allow for comfortable viewing for periods of up to two to three hours without creating headaches. In some cases brand is also an important aspect from a players perspective.

Difficult to recognise symbols or characters combined with glaring colours are all things which should be avoided.
Conclusion

In conclusion the following generalisations may be made (and please remember they are just that).

i) An unsophisticated tourist market requires simple to play uncomplicated machines.

ii) A sophisticated local market or one which has continued access to machines needs continual new product introductions in line with product life cycles.

iii) Denomination, game speed, game type, hold percentages, hit frequency and game variance are all intricately intertwined with "low" denomination games having certain characteristics and "high" denomination games quite different characteristics.

Table Five (as previously displayed)

Min.Denom. $0.05 $0.01 $0.2 $1.0 +
Hold % * 12% 10% 8% 5% (or lower)
Hit Frequency ** 5-15% 15% 15% 12-20%
Variance *** 30-150 50-160 10-50 10-50
Other Multiline
Features
Multiline
Features Multiplier
D/Up Jackpots Multiplier
D/Up Jackpots

Note D/Up = Double Up
* +/- 3%
** +/- 5%
*** approximate only

iv) Base denomination levels should be judged on market characteristics, competitive activity and "strategic" objectives. A 60% to 80% proportion of "low" denomination machines in a competitive market may be appropriate given Pareto considerations.

v) Placement and layout of machines within the individual venue should seek to maximise traffic flow around higher denomination games as well as ensuring player comfort and convenience. Very low denomination machines and essential facilities should be located in areas that drives traffic past other machines and outlets.

vi) Carousels may increase performance. Similarly, the activity on poor performing machines may be improved by locating them at the end of banks.

vii) Varying machine heights throughout the venue allows the use of higher machines against walls and breaks up the view within an area.

viii) Signage should create atmosphere and attract and inform players.

ix) Machine artwork, graphics and sounds should be designed to attract and hold the players attention.

The above, whilst in no way comprehensive, does attempt to provide the reader with a very basic insight into the decision making process involved in gaming machine selection and placement. It is of course essential to analyse your own market first and remember that business is about the profitable provision of customer satisfaction. So, satisfy the customer first and forget any rules or criteria if they do not match your strategic objectives or your particular client base.

I have played mechanical horse racing games before
That was many, many years ago though. I do remember though that the odds would change before the race began based on the types of wagers that were placed, similar to a Real race. By using the Bet60 or Bet20 system and betting heavier on the favorites to get the 60 or 20 coin return will the odds generally stay the same before the race begins? In using the strategy should the bets for the Favorites be placed first in order to keep the odds the same or does it matter? I will start to keep an eye out for the Royal Ascot games. Are any located in Arizona or Nevada? There are a lot of Indian casinos in AZ and Laughlin is a free bus ride away.
TIA, Bob :^)

By the way, I got the permission of the original creator of BET20 to repost the E-mail I received...

-----
Ohh well it´s more like the BET60 system just that the base, instead of
being 60, is randomly modified by the amounts you bet, for example...
if the odds are (44) (7) (22) (04) (03) (07), then with the bet60 system you
would bet like this...
ODDS:(44) (07) (22) (04) (03) (07)
BET: (02) (09) (03) (15) (20) (09)
FOR a total of 58, then you would usually use the 2 left to get to 60 on the
quiniella bets, that way you would never lose..but with my system you would
bet like this, after you run the program the result is the following:
ODDS:(44) (07) (22) (04) (03) (07)
BET: (01) (03) (01) (05) (07) (03)
for a total of 20, and you would never lose also...the base number is 20
here though...the thing is that you always reach the base and there are no
spare points to play, but you win anyway unless the horse with odd:04 wins,
in that case you would be even...

thanks a lot...
-----

Hi Bernard,
I have been trying to avoid playing it lately as I have so many other things on the go. I still have the bug and it is tough not to be there everyday,lol. I still check your site but am not trading much these days. I am out of all stocks right now and will stay in cash until summer I think.

Robert

Welcome back Robert! Made any money from the Sega machine lately?

I am back in civilization. I will reply to all outstanding emails in the next couple days, please stop ssending them to me for a few days so I can catch up.

Is there anyone lurking here who has played the australian game 'trackside'. Please message me or post here if you have seen or played it.

I'm going out on the town late tonight and will stop by the casino and try to make a few dollars to cover my stock market loses for the week, ha ha ha.

Unfotunately this board is a premium board and only paid members can post to it or send PM's to the posters here. There are many readers though and I have sure got lots of mail from them.

He's back next week he assured me, ha ha ha. again.

For those of you who have emailed either Robert or myself regarding SEGA machines, I will reply as quick as I can. I have been out of town for a week and have over 50 i haven't read. It is a tough thing to do when I am the only one here in the office right now to do it, but I will get to them all soon.

I'm home now. Lots of sega mails in the email.

I am going to stop off in Minnesota and check out a sega machine there that may still have an old chip in it. I'll let you know.

Busy day today, but still managed to stop by the casino and donate $200 to the SEGA. The numbers were bad, the BET60 was at 73 or higher the whole time. I'm an idiot, I shouldn't have played.

ATTN: ImakeMoney and Shagala, an E-mail to me for you two, but it's for the board.

Hi, i know you don´t know me but i´ve read your posts at investor´s hub and i wanted to reply to you on the Sega royal ascot board...i made a program that calculates the combination of bets on all 6 horses in a way that you never lose, and i say never lose because some of them don´t make you win...i mean that if you used such a combination then you would win exactly the same amount you bet...some of the combinations on the other hand do make you win...and some others have a mix between them...i wanted to post but the system tells me i need a premium account to do so...

I wanted to tell you guys that i found a Royal Ascot machine that has a 1991 chip, it´s over here in Caracas...maybe you could pass this info to ImakeMoney and Shagala...thanx...

signed,
Bernard

Well I wasn't there very long today, no good races to speak of. I did make a quick 50 on the sega though.. fine with me

Well I never did get to the casino last night, but I am going this afternoon to watch the horseraces and will play between races.

I'm going to play the SEGA pretty soon. Going to make $500 if I have to take an axe to it, ha ha ha.

5in/5out

if you watch the SEGA race results section of the wagering screen you will notice an interesting thing. Many of the horses will go through a series of 5in/5out. What that means is that a horse that may not always be a good finisher, may out of the blue manage to finish 5 races in a row with either a first or second place finish. In fact, if you look at the race results, any horse that has 4 finishes in a row that are fists and seconds, is highly likely to get the fifth one as a first or a second. Where this is to the players advantage is specifically when the odds for that horse are good, for example 7 or better. In that instance you should wheel that horse and bet all 5 of his quinellas heavy.

In addition, you will notice that the favorite horses run into computer generated 'losing streaks'. Those losing streaks again follow a similar pattern. When you see a top horse (one who has 2 or 3 to 1 odds) who has 4 losses in a row, you can safely exclude him from your wagering as he is highly likely not to finish in the quinella. This often creates great opportunities for payouts in the range of 20-60 credits.

Keep in mind this does not happen EVERY single time, but it does happen VERY often. Watch the game. As a regular observer and player I can often tell you the exact finishes of all 6 horse just from looking at their past 5 races and seeing where it is it makes sense for them to finish.

hi there qcho,
Robert is away until thrusday. I'll see if I can dig up a post on the 5in/5out for you though.

JR

Hi Robert

I am from Argentina and i´d like to know how is your five in/five out method...

Thanks a lot

qcho

Hi shagala,
Robert is out of town until wednesday or thursday of this week. I'm sure he will be able to help you then.

JR

Hi i just joined the message board

Robert,

I read your BET60 technique i think it works , but i have some problem figuring out the way you have to wager on each horse to WIN (I'm playing with the 1991 version)

For example,

Odds------------Result--------Quinella
(22-4-2-44-7-7)--3-5 -----------5

Is it a way to wager on all 6 horses and WIN?

I'm trying to figure it out and i can't, you always loose.

Could you explain me with more detail this method?

Regards,

Shagala
Caracas Venezuela

Played an hour of Sega, lost a hundred bucks. In the meantime I'm moving up to 10th in the contest ha ha ha ha

Now 11th. ha ha ha