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Notice the comment under one of the vidoes:
Special Thanks to E2M Michael Garjian For Making This Video
Why isn't Garjian under investigation?
http://www.youtube.com/user/rhino9513#p/u/5/nmEEMSfM-JY
John Rivera's youtube channel!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1oeRpdB2Mg
WOW
just when you thought the drama was over!!!!!
Skeptics Question Report of Stock Scammer's Death
8/19/2011 @ 7:54AM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2011/08/19/skeptics-question-report-of-stock-scammers-death/2/
It’s an article of faith among journalists that you can’t libel a dead man. But can you libel one by accusing him of faking his own death?
That’s what went through my mind yesterday when somebody sent me this death notice. The victim looks a lot like John H. Rivera, the stock swindler (he’s dead, right?) who with the help of still-unnamed brokers peddled more than a million shares of a biofuels company that could only have made a profit in an alternative universe where the laws of physics and chemistry have been suspended. A federal judge ended that portion of his career last month when he granted a summary judgment in a Securities and Exchange Commission civil suit, barring Rivera from the penny stock biz for life.
There was muttering among Rivera’s victims that he might have faked his own death. Now Kevin Cooper at the Natchez Democrat writes that those skeptics include Alex Rue, senior trial counsel in the SEC’s Atlanta office, who ran the trial against Rivera.
“ “For a variety of reasons, I think the world is skeptical,” Rue said.
“I told his lawyer, ‘I don’t believe he’s dead; show me a death certificate.’”
“When I see that death certificate, whoever signed it is going to sit down with me in a deposition and explain it,” Rue said. “Color me skeptical.”
Cooper says Rivera’s attorney, Clarence McDonald Leland, filed a “suggestion of death” notice with the U.S. District Court in Natchez on Tuesday on behalf of Rivera’s wife, Alice M. Price Rivera. She’s a “relief defendant” in the case, meaning she might be considered part of the scheme, Cooper wrote.
Rivera supposedly died (he’s dead, right?) in his home in Baytown, a gritty industrial city east of Houston. Judge Larry Cryer, a justice of the peace in Chambers County, Texas, is running the inquest and told the Natchez paper he’s got a photo of Rivera who apparently died of a heart attack.
"The housekeeper came in and found him, in the bed,” Cryer told the paper.
Whatever happened, there is an SEC attorney in Atlanta who will be looking over Cryer’s shoulder. Rue said he’d request fingerprints from the body when the inquest is complete. If the reports aren’t exaggerated, he said he’ll continue collection efforts against Rivera’s estate.
“I deal with liars, big bad liars, all the time, that’s the bread and butter here, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody more inclined to just lie, lie, lie, like John Rivera,” Rue told the paper. About the dead man.
Having spent a few hilarious moments on the phone with Rivera myself, I can attest to the fact he was the type of guy who’d try to sell a physicist a perpetual-motion machine. At the end of the conversation I was almost convinced he believed what he was saying, and definitely convinced he thought I believed what he was saying. The investment world mourns his passing.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2011/08/19/skeptics-question-report-of-stock-scammers-death/2/
Attorney Rue said he believes Rivera’s death would not end the SEC’s case.
“It doesn’t make our entire case go away if he’s actually dead,” he said, adding the court could seek damages against his estate.
Rue said he looks forward to having the case resolved soon.
“I deal with liars, big bad liars, all the time, that’s the bread and butter here, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody more inclined to just lie, lie, lie, like John Rivera.”[/i]
http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/2011/08/19/rivera-apparently-dies-amid-case/
WOW!!!! Rivera apparently dies amid case
Published 12:06am Friday, August 19, 2011
Email Comments
By Kevin Cooper
The nAtchez Democrat
NATCHEZ — Self-professed biofuels wizard John Rivera apparently died on Monday near Baytown, Texas.
Rivera’s alleged death raised eyebrows among investors cheated by his schemes and the government attorneys who sought justice in Rivera’s stock manipulation scandal.
Rivera, who a federal judge ruled in July had lied about his company in order to profit from falsely inflated stock prices, proved equally as difficult to believe in death.
Several online posts on stock investment sites alleged Rivera might have faked his own death to skirt punishment.
“For a variety of reasons, I think the world is skeptical,” said Alex Rue, senior trial counsel for the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission’s Atlanta Regional Office. Rue was one of two attorneys who represented the SEC in its case against Rivera.
“I told his lawyer, ‘I don’t believe he’s dead; show me a death certificate.’”
“When I see that death certificate, whoever signed it is going to sit down with me in a deposition and explain it,” Rue said. “Color me skeptical.”
Rivera’s attorney, Clarence McDonald Leland of Brandon, filed a “suggestion of death” notice with the U.S. District Court in Natchez on Tuesday on behalf of Rivera’s wife, Alice M. Price Rivera.
She was listed as a relief defendant in the SEC’s case, meaning she was believed to have profited from her husband’s illegal activity.
Such a court notice would be made to simply alert the court that the defendant may have died. A call to Leland was not returned.
Navarre Funeral Home in Baytown, Texas, posted a small obituary notice on its website, offering few details about Rivera’s death, only that no funeral service would be scheduled.
The obituary noted that Rivera was born in Miami, on May 13, 1949, and died Aug. 15, 2011, and resided in Baytown.
Funeral director Todd Oubre said they were prohibited from releasing information because of privacy policies. He referred inquiries to Judge Larry Cryer, a justice of the peace in neighboring Chamber County.
Cryer confirmed he was handling the inquest into Rivera’s death.
A justice of the peace may act as coroner in counties in which a medical examiner’s office does not exist.
Cryer said law enforcement authorities were called to Rivera’s Baytown residence on Monday.
“The housekeeper came in and found him, in the bed,” Cryer said.
The exact identity of the body will remain undetermined pending the autopsy results, but Cryer said he believed the body appeared to be Rivera’s.
“I have a photo of him, it looks close to me, but I didn’t know him, so I couldn’t say for sure,” Cryer said, adding that autopsies are routinely requested in cases of unattended deaths. “We like to make sure (of the identity) to the best of our ability.”
The autopsy included fingerprinting the body, Cryer said. The results were not complete Thursday afternoon, he said, but could be used to confirm Rivera’s identity.
Attorney Rue said when the autopsy results were finalized his office would compare the fingerprints.
Prior to Thursday, Cryer was unaware of Rivera’s legal troubles.
Rue said that Rivera had used health issues as an excuse for not remembering details during depositions involving the case.
Court documents show Rivera claimed that prescription medication he once took blocked his memory for the eight years of time in which the government alleged he misled investors.
Rivera burst onto the Natchez scene in 2006 claiming ownership of a company that had patents to a revolutionary process to turn soybeans into biofuel.
His promises were on a grand scale. In 2006, Rivera claimed that his Adams County plans would include the possible hiring of up to 2,000 people and eventually produce 1.5 million gallons of the magical biofuel per day.
Nothing ever became of his plans in Natchez and the company eventually moved its headquarters to Texas.
The SEC’s case, filed in 2008, alleged that Rivera used false press releases and other false public statements to drive up interest — and stock price — in his company, U.S. Sustainable Energy Corp.
U.S. District Judge David Bramlette issued a judgment against Rivera in July, affirming the SEC’s allegations.
SEC attorneys had requested the court bar Rivera from ever acting as an officer or director in a company with securities registered with the SEC. In addition, they sought to have Rivera barred from participating in any “penny stock” offerings and they sought his payback of any ill-gained profits he earned.
SEC attorneys had been asked to provide additional documentation to the court prior to Bramlette ruling on the injunction request, Rue said.
Rivera’s death left investors wondering if the stock manipulator had managed to avoid justice.
One of those investors, Curtis Patrick of Wesson, said he didn’t lose lots of money in his investments in USSEC, but he knew of people who did.
“I’m just a small fry compared to some of the people,” Patrick said. “One man lost his whole (nest) egg that he put into it.
“Everything was just one lie after another,” he said. “I hope he died suffering, that’s just my opinion.”
Attorney Rue said he believes Rivera’s death would not end the SEC’s case.
“It doesn’t make our entire case go away if he’s actually dead,” he said, adding the court could seek damages against his estate.
Rue said he looks forward to having the case resolved soon.
“I deal with liars, big bad liars, all the time, that’s the bread and butter here, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody more inclined to just lie, lie, lie, like John Rivera.”
http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/2011/08/19/rivera-apparently-dies-amid-case/
Given his health issues, maybe he figured this would happen before he ever got caught and served time.
Will the SEC go after his estate now for disgorgement?
it is a testament to JR's "liars' club" infamy that even his death is looked upon with suspicion by some!!!!!!
but the timing sure is amazing......
PS: even I do not think JR had the gall to fake his demise......he did have lots of health issues, no secret there......seriously, what did he do, have el presidente fly up a private jet with a body for the death certificate??????.....maybe right now he is enjoying the lobster and senoritas "down south"!!!!
(let's hope for JR there is no such thing as ironic-karmic incarnation!!!)
It looks like it.
Rivera, John Hector Baytown, TX No Service
http://obit.navarrefuneralhome.com/obitlist.html
There's nothing new on Pacer. If it is a hoax, it's not likely to impress the judge.
I searched the local newspapers and found nothing yet.
Surely this is not a cruel hoax or a diversion tactic! ????. Where would the obit appear? I didn't see one or any news of this in the Natchez Democrat for August 16, or 17.
Apparently so, but no details available yet.
Rivera was apparently found in his home; passed away from a heart attack.
Rivera is dead?
wow.
what happened?
08/16/2011 94 NOTICE of Suggestion of Death by Alice M. Price (Leland, Clarence) (Entered: 08/16/2011)
Doc 94 PDF file
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/zI5Rh
Extract -
SUGGESTION OF DEATH
In accordance with Rule 25(a), Alice M. Price now Rivera; a relief defendant in this action, notes the death during pendency of this action of John H. Rivera, a defendant in this action of John H. Rivera, a defendant in this action.
This the 16th day of August, 2011.
Respectfully submitted,
Alice M. Price, now Rivera
/s/ Clarence McDonald Leland
By: Clarence McDonald Leland MB# 9739
Clarence McDonald Leland, Ltd.
200 Town Square, Suite A
P.O. Box 1466
Brandon, Mississippi 39043
cleland@bellsouth.net
601-825-7978
Pacer update 16 Aug 11 SEC v. U. S. Sustainable Energy Corp et al 5:08-cv-00245-DCB-JMR
https://ecf.mssd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl
Date Filed # Docket Text
08/16/2011 94 NOTICE of Suggestion of Death by Alice M. Price (Leland, Clarence) (Entered: 08/16/2011)
Defendant U. S. Sustainable Energy Corp
Defendant John H. Rivera
Defendant Alice M. Price
https://ecf.mssd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl
Biofuels Personality of the Year: John Rivera, CEO of US Sustainable Energy, is surprise write-in winner
http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/blog2/2008/01/01/biofuels-personality-of-the-year-john-rivera-ceo-of-sustainable-energy-is-surprise-write-in-winner/
REST IN PEACE JOHN RIVERA, may God forgive you when you stand before him.
oh my, i didn't notice the 2007. riviera, that must have been usse? yep, that one gave folks a pretty good screwing huh? again, best of luck.
now we found out that Stanton bought the USSE property in Natchez!!!!
(according to the SEC case)
hmmmmmmm......
Never saw Ford get deposed.
jmo
it was older than that!!!!!.....
PS: nothing personal, was just commenting after a trip down memory lane, now that Rivera has been exposed as an official scam......
you responded to a post 5 months old? honestly, i don't remember that conversation, and i don't think i ever was involved in it. i think it's an ihub flub. in any event, best of luck for tomorrow.
Just consider Baytown a gathering of fools compared to the sages of Hubville who weigh in on matters related to JR's business plan!
yep, skeptics of JR, secret catalysts, and pyrolysis in general got it wrong again.........
PS: for those keeping score at home!!!
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/os1bae
did Jim Ford ever get deposed in this mess?????
better late than never!!!!!
(20 cents pre-split looks darned good about now!!!)
how did that work out?????
Your Question: > has USSE actually found whether or not the fuel works effectively in a turbine
Unequivocally yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
did they ask about that in your deposition?????
PS: any other JR "liar's certificates" to lay on us????
think they will charge JR with perjury????
"admits that Jens and Stanton bought the 35 acre facility, not USSE, contrary to his assertions at the remedies hearing on Aug 9, 2011"
(paraphrasing in the above)
PS: would like to see STANTON get the SEC eyeball as well........he is kind of the "man behind the curtain" on much of this, IMO.......
says Rivera made threats......
08/12/2011 93 RESPONSE in Support re 61 First MOTION for Summary Judgment Securities and Exchange Commission's Submission of Transcript Cites in support of Remedies against Defendants U.S. Sustainable Energy Corp. and John H. Rivera and against Relief Defendant Price filed by Securities and Exchange Commission (Rue, Alex) (Entered: 08/12/2011)
Doc 93 PDF file
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/os1bae
Pacer update 12 Aug 11 SEC v. U. S. Sustainable Energy Corp et al 5:08-cv-00245-DCB-JMR
https://ecf.mssd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl
Date Filed # Docket Text
08/12/2011 93 RESPONSE in Support re 61 First MOTION for Summary Judgment Securities and Exchange Commission's Submission of Transcript Cites in support of Remedies against Defendants U.S. Sustainable Energy Corp. and John H. Rivera and against Relief Defendant Price filed by Securities and Exchange Commission (Rue, Alex) (Entered: 08/12/2011)
Defendant U. S. Sustainable Energy Corp
Defendant John H. Rivera
Defendant Alice M. Price
https://ecf.mssd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl
Pacer update 09 Aug 11 SEC v. U. S. Sustainable Energy Corp et al 5:08-cv-00245-DCB-JMR
https://ecf.mssd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl
Date Filed # Docket Text
08/09/2011 Minute Entry for proceedings held before Honorable David C. Bramlette, III: Hearing on Remedies held on 8/9/2011. (Court Reporter Fred Jeske) (dtj) (Entered: 08/09/2011)
08/08/2011 DOCKET ANNOTATION as to 92 : Attorney Rue's office advised that document was filed in error as depositions are not to be filed with the Clerk's office. Notice of Receipt of Depositions were previously filed as required by Local Uniform Civil Rules 5(d)(2). (PKM) (Entered: 08/11/2011)
08/05/2011 92 **ERROR**Disregard this entry. NOTICE of Manual Filing of the Original Deposition Transcripts by Securities and Exchange Commission (Rue, Alex) Modified on 8/11/2011 (PKM). (Entered: 08/05/2011)
Defendant U. S. Sustainable Energy Corp
Defendant John H. Rivera
Defendant Alice M. Price
https://ecf.mssd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl
Hopefully they've confiscated their passports.
JR and Alice must need another day to pack to bolt for the border!
08/01/2011 90 MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT re 88 Order on Motion for Summary Judgment of Remedies Against Defendants U.S. Sustainable Energy Corp. and John H. Rivera and Against Relief Defendant Price filed by Securities and Exchange Commission (Attachments: # 1 Index to Attachments to Plaintiff's Supplemental Brief for Remedies, # 2 Item 1 Excerpts from the Deposition of Robert Davis, July 13, 2010, # 3 Item 2 - Excerpts from the Deposition of Kelmer Smith, Jr., July 16, 2010, # 4 Item 3 - Excerpts of the Deposition of Keith Mazer, July 23, 2010, # 5 Item 4 - Excerpts from the Deposition of Richard Cutler, August 9, 2010; and Exhibit 66, # 6 Item 5 - Exhibit 105 from the Deposition of Alice Price, # 7 Item 6 - Declaration of Jerome Dewwitt, August 1, 2011, # 8 Exhibit A Attached to Jerome Dewitt Declaration, # 9 Certificate of Service)(Rue, Alex) (Entered: 08/01/2011)
Doc 90 PDF file
https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/daabH9
Document Number: 90 25 pages 1.1 mb
Attachment Description
1 Index to Attachments to Plaintiff's Supplemental Brief for Remedies 2 pages 38 kb
2 Item 1 Excerpts from the Deposition of Robert Davis, July 13, 2010 14 pages 428 kb
3 Item 2 - Excerpts from the Deposition of Kelmer Smith, Jr., July 16, 2010 5 pages 124 kb
4 Item 3 - Excerpts of the Deposition of Keith Mazer, July 23, 2010 9 pages 240 kb
5 Item 4 - Excerpts from the Deposition of Richard Cutler, August 9, 2010; and Ex 32 pages 1.2 mb
6 Item 5 - Exhibit 105 from the Deposition of Alice Price 17 pages 301 kb
7 Item 6 - Declaration of Jerome Dewwitt, August 1, 2011 3 pages 72 kb
8 Exhibit A Attached to Jerome Dewitt Declaration 4 pages 74 kb
9 Certificate of Service 1 page 13 kb
Pacer update 03 Aug 11 SEC v. U. S. Sustainable Energy Corp et al 5:08-cv-00245-DCB-JMR
https://ecf.mssd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl
Date Filed # Docket Text
08/03/2011 RESET HEARING: PLEASE NOTE CHANGE OF DATE. Hearing on Remedies is reset for August 9, 2011, at 10:00 a.m. in Courtroom 1 (Natchez) before Honorable David C. Bramlette III. (lda) (Entered: 08/03/2011)
08/03/2011 91 ORDER granting 89 Motion to Continue. Signed by Honorable David C. Bramlette, III on August 3, 2011. (lda) (Entered: 08/03/2011)
08/01/2011 90 MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT re 88 Order on Motion for Summary Judgment of Remedies Against Defendants U.S. Sustainable Energy Corp. and John H. Rivera and Against Relief Defendant Price filed by Securities and Exchange Commission (Attachments: # 1 Index to Attachments to Plaintiff's Supplemental Brief for Remedies, # 2 Item 1 Excerpts from the Deposition of Robert Davis, July 13, 2010, # 3 Item 2 - Excerpts from the Deposition of Kelmer Smith, Jr., July 16, 2010, # 4 Item 3 - Excerpts of the Deposition of Keith Mazer, July 23, 2010, # 5 Item 4 - Excerpts from the Deposition of Richard Cutler, August 9, 2010; and Exhibit 66, # 6 Item 5 - Exhibit 105 from the Deposition of Alice Price, # 7 Item 6 - Declaration of Jerome Dewwitt, August 1, 2011, # 8 Exhibit A Attached to Jerome Dewitt Declaration, # 9 Certificate of Service)(Rue, Alex) (Entered: 08/01/2011)
08/01/2011 89 MOTION to Continue by John H. Rivera (Leland, Clarence) (Entered: 08/01/2011)
Defendant U. S. Sustainable Energy Corp
Defendant John H. Rivera
Defendant Alice M. Price
https://ecf.mssd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/iquery.pl
Good info Morning! How do you think shareholders would go about filing a claim? Would a notice be sent out by a law firm about a class action suit, or from the brokers, or how? Thanks for the post.
Rivera is a "professional"!!!
EXCERPTS/OBSERVATIONS:
Plaintiffs make a point that Rivera's "profession" for the past 20 years has involved making false claims about the so-called Rivera Process to take money from victims to support himself and continue to develop his product; etc. Given this history, it is unlikely he will stop. Moreover, Rivera may still control USSE, now ZEONS CORPORATION, and has the ability to resurrect this fraud in another vehicle.
In the text of the 8/1/2011 filing of Support to the Motion, the Plaintiffs (SEC) point out that the Court could impose a penalty of up to $4,940,000 against Rivera and up to $22,800,000 against USSE.
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=65837039
SEC costs and fines will be paid first.
jmo
They might have assets that can be sold off to pay back investors.
Alice already spent it.
lolol
jmo
I'm guessing then that August 8 will tell how we go about getting any money back (??)
SEC wins judgment against Rivera
Published 12:01am Sunday, July 24, 2011
Email Comments
NATCHEZ — A federal judge ruled Thursday that would-be biofuels wizard John Rivera’s claims were not worth the hill of beans he claimed could be magically turned into fuel.
U.S. District Judge David Bramlette handed down a summary judgment against Rivera, affirming charges levied by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
The SEC’s case, filed in 2008, alleged that Rivera used false press releases and other false public statements to drive up interest — and stock price — in his company, U.S. Sustainable Energy Corp.
After the market manipulation was complete, the SEC said, the goal was for Rivera, his then companion, now wife, Alice M. Price and others to dump their insider shares of USSEC, reaping huge profits in what turned out to be a virtually worthless company.
The SEC says that Price sold more than 35 million combined shared in USSEC and Sustainable Power Corporation, another Rivera owned company.
USSEC was initially headquartered in Natchez in 2006, before later being moved to Baytown, Texas.
Rivera burst onto the Natchez scene in 2006 claiming ownership of a company that had patents to a revolutionary process to turn soybeans into biofuel.
His promises were on a grand scale. In 2006, Rivera claimed that his Adams County plans would include the possible hiring of up to 2,000 people and eventually produce 1.5 million gallons of the magical biofuel per day.
The flamboyant Rivera donated money to the Adams County Sheriff’s Office for protective vests in 2006. In return, a Santa-costumed Rivera was allowed to hitch a ride in the ACSO’s helicopter to drop in on a group of needy children at Christmas.
But the pinnacle of his showmanship occurred in November 2006 when he put on a sideshow routine allegedly powering the Vidalia City Hall with a generator, purportedly operating on the amazing elixir he’d managed to squeeze from soybeans.
The show was so impressive that it led to power contract negotiations between USSEC and the City of Vidalia. Rivera’s defense used the negotiations as evidence that his processes were commercially viable. The judge disagreed.
As part of the SEC’s request to the judge, Rivera may be barred from ever acting as a director or officer in a company having securities registered with the SEC. Further, he may be barred from ever participating in any “penny stock” offerings, such as the transactions involving USSEC.
Lastly, the ruling suggests that Rivera may be forced to pay back any of the money he earned illegally, interest earned on the money prior to the judgment and possible penalties for the actions.
The details of just how much he may be forced to pay will be decided at his next court appearance on Aug. 8 at the U.S. District Court in Natchez.
http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/2011/07/24/sec-wins-judgment-against-rivera/
What would Mama say? Rivera is lesson
Published 12:01am Wednesday, July 27, 2011
Email Comments
Mama’s lessons never become irrelevant no matter how much the world changes.
And it’s likely that in 2006 when a bit of a mystery man rolled in to town touting his ability to almost magically make fuel from soybeans, more than a few local residents shook their heads and remembered Mama’s lesson.
“If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is,” Mama always said.
John Rivera sounded fishy to many folks as he paraded around town appearing at special events while opening shop at the Adams County port.
Suspicions were confirmed when the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission began looking into Rivera and his company and later alleged that Rivera used false press releases and other false public statements to drive up interest — and stock price — in his company, U.S. Sustainable Energy Corp.
Last week a judge ruled in favor of the SEC, closing the book on USSEC and John Rivera.
The details of just how much he may be forced to pay will be decided at his next court appearance on Aug. 8 at the U.S. District Court in Natchez.
It’s good to see that the system identified Rivera and fleshed him out as a crook.
Now, we’d all be wise to realize next time something too good to be true pops up in front of us that we’d better think about Mama’s lesson.
http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/2011/07/27/what-would-mama-say-rivera-is-lesson/
Remember the guy from CT that was pumping USSE/SSTP and threatening anyone who disagreed?
who could forget.......
There was an episode of American Greed on CNBC last night focused on the mob in NY/NJ and how they made lots of money in pump and dump penny stock schemes. Remember the guy from CT that was pumping USSE/SSTP and threatening anyone who disagreed?
Criminal prosecution? I certainly hope so, he deserves it. He perpetrated a huge scam. Might be difficult given the missing hard drives and lack of paper records. Oh, and the 'fire and/or flood'. Testimony may do him in though. I hope they try him just for the pain it will cause him and those involved. And yet...some will still believe he really had something.
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