Mr Cooper Group Inc (COOP)

[hotmeat]

Honestly some of the big A's posts are plausible and with which I agree, but a lot of the predictions/claims are utter nonsense, shrouded in ambiguous posts.

[hotmeat]

What's the real significance of the "assets" ?

It was only a $20 Mil debt that was cleared.

[hotmeat]

Actually, there were no "hidden assets" in the K-Mart bankruptcy as is believed in WMI's.

The Accounting practices utilized used their acquisition values, causing them to be severely undervalued.

Once their present day values were accounted for, their true worth was realized.

This was only done after shareholders were out of the picture and could not benefit.

[austin01]

That $25 offer "gone down the drain" makes me sad to think about.

[johnydollar]

This is something to ponder during this process.

Quote
But what if the WMILT closes, and sometime later assets are returned?

[CBA09]

Ref: As per with K-MART BK the Debtors did not disclose the safe harbour assets,which at the end shareholders got zero.

At the end the assets gave the new K-MART a big boost and rocketing the price per share close to 500% within a year or two.

So my question is could WMIH end up with this assets just like K-MART and screw escrows?

Comment:

No. WMI the parent has ownership rights. Same token those that have rights to what WMI has rights to will own the same. Here sits escrow holders.

[fwh3334zeke]

Yep 8 dollars, TD of Canada offered $25 That is when FDIC(government) took and gave to JPM for 1.9
I see up a little in DH, .9888

[austin01]

zeke, didn't JPM offer to buy WM for around $7 ? Maybe that's "fair and reasonable". I'd be thrilled even after waiting so long.

[clawmann]

Yes, Exdimer. It was AZ who first made that assertion and then LG agreed. And it was my response to LG disputing the loss of the NOLs that started the entire back and forth about 8-Ks.

[johnydollar]

Thanks, that explains why they took all the assets.

[UncleBo]

Unaudited - Last Updated: 11/21/2016

https://closedbanks.fdic.gov/drrip/Ext/BalDetails/10015

[EXDIMER]

Claw I think AZ first asserted such, LG then agreed

Of Course, as usual they are both wrong, and the latest disclosure proves the point as nothing about NOLs mentioned.

[CBA09]

Ref: CBA09, I'm guessing you have given this some astute consideration. You feel 3 to 4 bucks per escrows share is "Waaay too little". Then, is 6 to 7 bucks per escrows share doable for common?

Comment:

Yes

[clawmann]

LG: you asserted that the NOLs are gone. I disputed that arguing that such a major event would require an 8-K. You countered that WMIH had not 8-K'd the pay-off of the run-off notes. I argued - at that point in time - that WMIH could elect to 8-K that event, but did not have to. Then, later, WMIH did just that; they elected to 8-K the pay-off of the notes.

So I ask you: where is the 8-K about the loss of the NOLs? You insist that the NOLs are gone. So where is the 8-K about that? If WMIH will 8-k the payoff of the run-off notes, they certainly would 8-k the loss of the NOLs.

Answer: There is no such 8-K because the NOLs are not "gone".

[fwh3334zeke]

not CB, but I do not know when you bought, see when you started posting. Do you think 6/7 $$ is adequate for waiting 15 years? I know it is more than we had but*******

[Nightdaytrader]

Nice catch Azcowboy. Key word: assets.

[clawmann]

This, I think, is potentially the big difference between WMI's bankruptcy and K-Mart's.

If I understand correctly, K-mart shareholders got nothing at the conclusion of K-Mart's bankruptcy. No shares in the new company, no escrow markers.

So, if assets come back, they have to go somewhere. WMILT or WMIH?

My position is that they would have to go to the WMILT. But what if the WMILT closes, and sometime later assets are returned?

[austin01]

CBA09, I'm guessing you have given this some astute consideration. You feel 3 to 4 bucks per escrows share is "Waaay too little". Then, is 6 to 7 bucks per escrows share doable for common?

[johnydollar]

As per with K-MART BK the Debtors did not disclose the safe harbour assets,which at the end shareholders got zero.

At the end the assets gave the new K-MART a big boost and rocketing the price per share close to 500% within a year or two.

So my question is could WMIH end up with this assets just like K-MART and screw escrows?

[Large Green]

Yes, 8Ks must be filed within 4 BUSINESS days...key word business

[clawmann]

Thanks CBA09,

Your second item addresses the issues I was thinking about when I posted the question.

We are then left with a major issue. Assume that assets come back, this year, next year, or further in the future: which entity would be entitled to recover those assets? WMILT or WMIH. It has been and continues to be my position that WMILT is the legal successor to WMI with respect to anything not specifically assigned or transferred to WMIH by the POR.

[fwh3334zeke]

TD had another line on their site 8K must be filed in 4 days of event, unless I read it wrong.

[Fletch-42]

Good info, keep it coming.

[Large Green]

clawman, well what say you? Two 8Ks in same week discussing the very topic you tried to run over me with...you are too funny!

[clawmann]

It's about the satisfaction and discharge of the Second Lien Indenture and the consequent release of the lien on the assets of the Company that secured the Second Lien Notes:

Item 1.02 Termination of a Material Definitive Agreement

As previously reported, on March 19, 2012, WMIH Corp. (successor to WMI Holdings Corp. and Washington Mutual, Inc.) (the “ Company ”) issued $20 million aggregate principal amount of its 13% Senior Second Lien Notes due 2030 (the “ Second Lien Notes ”) under an indenture, dated as of March 19, 2012, between the Company and Delaware Trust Company, successor to The Law Debenture Trust Company of New York, as trustee (“ Trustee ”), as amended by that certain First Supplemental Indenture, dated May 11, 2015, by and among WMI Holdings Corp., WMIH Corp. and Trustee (collectively, the “ Second Lien Indenture ”).

The Second Lien Notes have been fully redeemed by the Company and in connection therewith, the Second Lien Indenture was satisfied and discharged as of October 2, 2017 as provided under the terms of the Second Lien Indenture, which resulted in the release of the liens on the assets of the Company that secured the Second Lien Notes.

[CBA09]

Ref: Any idea as to timing? Are we looking at sometime before or after the end of 2018?

Comment:

I believe timing will be two fold:

1) That what happens within the finalization of receivership before the end of Sept 2018,

2) That what happens outside of the receivership, specific to Bankrupcty remote entities - SPE's. This, I strongly believe, is were the lions share of recovery will come. Each SPE / Trust is governed by the expressed language of each PSA. There a many and most likely many have reached ripeness while others continue until to carry out payment compliance to investors / certificate holders.

These stand alone SPE's have many accounts that keep separate various types of revenue. I know from first hand experience the amount of retained assets within can be massive. Many Trusts have 6-7 tranches with 10's of Thousands of loans in each tranche.

When a given Trust's PSA has completed it's fulfillment to certificate holders a provision called "Accounts Removable" takes place. But before the actual removable is initiated a reconciliation of "Retained Assets" takes place. This is the vouching of reports to $ in the captive cash accounts along with any remaining over "Over Collateralized Pooled Receivables." Then a true-up, namely $ distribution is performed by the Master Servicer. Here, from my experience, the Holding Company (WMI) would be the receiver of these retained assets.

Now the question is when will this happen. Since this is outside of Bankruptcy it could have happened with each fulfillment of PSA. Then again it could be ( for completed "True-ups" ) in tandem with the finalization of Receivership. Then of course, as those that meet fulfillment a payout accordingly.

[AZCowboy]

~ The WMIH-Corp Debt Is Now' Paid As Of 10/02/2017 ~

"The Second Lien Notes have been fully redeemed by the Company and in connection therewith, the Second Lien Indenture was satisfied and discharged as of October 2, 2017 as provided under the terms of the Second Lien Indenture, which resulted in the release of the liens on the assets of the Company that secured the Second Lien Notes."

"which resulted in the release of the liens on the assets of the Company that secured the Second Lien Notes."

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/933136/000119312517305937/d470625d8k.htm

just sayin'

AZ

[Roach58]

WMIH Files 8K - Termination Of Definitive Agreement >WMIH
Just copied and pasted this from TDA...haven't read it yet.
This isn't a link just the headline and the timeline hasn't happened yet. 8:30pm tonight

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/933136/000119312517305937/d470625d8k.htm

[gg4]

:) Talk next happy hour all the best. GG4

[Large Green]

Jest, all you need to know for now, is yes it will happen relative to when WMIH files their 8K moving forward.

[gg4]

Thank you LG for letting me know about happy hour and Bob for reminding me. Thanks again both of you. Thank you both for the information over the years, a couple of very smart guys, along with a few others. Glta

[REALtime64]

All escrows will be paid right away when this company is done fore it's the only way it can happen now

[Jestiron]

Alright...to anyone who knows the answer....

Exactly HOW and WHEN will Safe Harbor assets get relinquished? Are there examples of this from other BKs which we can refer? How does the timing work? Before BK close or after? Ramifications of timing?

I know this has been posted before, but WHAT document actually STATES that LT is the ONLY owner of S/H assets? Is there ANY scenario where these would not/could not come back to LT.

NOTE: I am NOT NOT talking about how many assets are here.

In a scenario where the waterfall DOESN'T make it all the way to Class 19 & 22, would this affect ownership? Piers? My understanding is that this is not possible as this is the sole PURPOSE of Safe Harbor protection, but I want to make sure.

Sorry for all of the questions, but I have been listening for a while to see if I could understand from the board a better way to ask these questions.

PLEASE do not answer if you THINK you know....I need consensus on the answers....I think we all do.

Jest

[clawmann]

Any idea as to timing? Are we looking at sometime before or after the end of 2018?

Also, the LT is the legal successor to WMI. WMIH is not. So do you agree that any retained assets that are returned would have to go to the LT for distribution?

[CBA09]

Ref: CBA09 What led you to invest in WAMU and did any of your co-workers feel the same way?

Comment:

My banking experience. I am semi- retired CPA.

[CBA09]

Ref: CBA09, are you optimistic that escrows will be rewarded nicely? Nicely, as in 3 to 4 bucks per escrows share or more.

Comment:

Waaay too little. Just ponder this; some of the "Shrewdest Investors" in the world have reserved a seat here and been here over nine years. Even before they were here I was thinking massive. There presence validates my opinion.

[austin01]

That's encouraging coming from you. Thanks! Care to elaborate a little on why you are so optimistic? By the way, I changed my post to this, "CBA09, are you optimistic that escrows will be rewarded nicely? Nicely, as in 3 to 4 bucks per escrows share or more".
I would really be interested in your response to my "3 to 4 bucks per escrows share or more" query.

[Fletch-42]

CBA09 What led you to invest in WAMU and did any of your co-workers feel the same way?

[CBA09]

Ref: CBA09, are you optimistic that escrows will be rewarded well?

Comment:

On a scale of 1 to 10 and ten being the highest level - 10! I have too much experience within the banking industry and specifically Pooling and Serving Agreements (PSA) to believe otherwise.

[austin01]

CBA09, are you optimistic that escrows will be rewarded nicely? Nicely, as in 3 to 4 bucks per escrows share or more.

[gg4]

Can't wait!!!!!

[BBANBOB]

Paid into WELLS ACCTS so far and the rest, well you get it

[CBA09]

Ref: Our interests are in what was OUTSIDE OF THE WMI BK CASE, not what was in it, now we'll be glad to take that as well, but the MONEY AINT IN WMI BK CASE, it's outside of it in our/my opinion.

Comment:

Yes exactly -- Outside, specifically bankruptcy remote assets. Those within SPE's classified as "True Sale" securitized assets.

Simply put, "Off Balance Sheet Assets" reflects assets that WMB gave up the legal ownership rights and complete control to SPE's which in turn is owned by WMI.


WMI being the parent, it is highly unlikely the court will dispute of the final ownership of retained assets to WMI. Just look at the Facts:

1) Off Balance sheet assets are removed from WMB. (Legal ownership given up)

2) Off Balance sheet assets initially transferred / sold to SPE # 1

3) Off Balance sheet assets subsequently transferred to SPE # 2 / Trust.

4) Neither SPE # 1 & # 2 are subsidiaries of WMB but rather WMI.

5) Generally SPE # 1 is the credit enhancer within SPE # 2. Thus SPE # 1 would have ownership in the form of subordinate tranches, namely called a equity ownership.

6) Both the SPE's # 1 & # 2 along with assets and income generated within are isolated from WMB.

[BBANBOB]

Who sir would you then pick? WELLS OPPS Bear Sterns ooops Lehmans OOOPS GS ooops MS oooops, really ya need to wak up pard they don't get that large being honest/moral/ethical SORRY!!

[Zalviny]

yay up one tenth of a penny

[austin01]

I would have liked much more transparency and communication from our leaders. That's been a concern for me, too.

[BBANBOB]

Johny
I have been NOW dealing with getting everything straight in my wife's estate (an atom on a gnats ass compared)for almost 6 yrs when their was a trust involved many good lawyers and now even probate and am still not completely done,so YEP I GET IT and yes you're correct WMAU was HUGE one of the biggest around

[johnydollar]

Sometimes you got to stop and wonder, either there is Big money to settle or money leaving through the back door.IMO

[fwh3334zeke]

I know that before they changed to Electronic checks JPM used to write my PAPER CHECK.

[austin01]

The duration of settling this fiasco has had me suspicious for a long time.