Investor Help (NO Ihub questions)

[pitboss22]

No, I don't trade pennies at all.

Unless you swamped the bid with your order, I would have gotten in touch with the SEC immediately. Unless the bid was swamped with selling, your broker screwed you and should have made it good or gone to jail. Since the market became computerized, there is a record of every trade and the conditions at the time of execution.

[cintrix]

You are using market orders on penny stocks? I can tell you that years ago I put a market order in on a NYSE stock and they filled my sell order $2 below the bid. When I called up to complain they told me that there was nothing I could do since I used a market order. Using market orders on pennies is even more dangerous.

[pitboss22]

You may want to check if that applies to sell orders. Most restrictions that I have heard of are limited to buy orders.

[cintrix]

There you go! I can remember years ago that a lot of brokers didn't even allow market orders on penny stocks, but I never ever use them so I didn't know for sure if they still had that rule.

[pitboss22]

If you need to sell immediately in a fast moving market, the only way to be sure of selling is to use a market order. I've seen stocks go down so quickly that by the time you've entered a price, it's already too late. The same goes in the opposite direction sometimes.

One needs to be judicious in their use but a market order is the only sure way to get a fill.

[1990Flstf]

My scottrade won't let me trade pennies unless a limit order is placed

[pitboss22]

If you sell at market, you don't need the AON.

If you have 500 shares to sell when you reach the front of the queue, and there are only 400 on the inside bid, you will fill 400 at the inside bid and then the next 100 at the next lower bid.

If you use an AON limit current bid price, your order will not be executed unless more shares are added to the bid at or above your asking price. Meanwhile several 100 share lots could go off ahead of you.

[cintrix]

I NEVER use market orders - too dangerous. But in theory you are right. Especially if you are trading pennies you should not use market orders.

[cintrix]

Yes, but there is no guarantee that you will get the fill even if you put your order in at the bid - they might not have enough shares at that price to sell you. I rarely use AON orders. The only time I ever use them is if it is getting close to the end of the day before the close. I don't want to get stuck selling say a penny stock at 100k shares and have them fill me 1k right before the close. It is a waste of a commission.

[pitboss22]

Actually, if you need to sell immediately, you put in a market sell order. The order should fill at the current bid price when it enters the queue. In a fast moving market, the bid price could go down faster than your order reaches the front of the queue.

[1990Flstf]

AON theory you stated, included?

[cintrix]

Absolutely, if you need to sell it right away you put the order in at the bid price.

[1990Flstf]

So another stupid question- to get a sell in, the bid is quicker to fill than the ask?

[cintrix]

Once again:

RE AON: It is not a guarantee to fill and it is considered a special order so someone else could get filled in front of you.

[1990Flstf]

I know what AON is, I got screwed by forgetting to check the box, once, in the past. My question is if I have a sell order put in and it should sell, why wouldn't it?

[PennyMann]

Time to research AON lol. Thx for the inspiration cintrix.

[PennyMann]

What is AON?

Your sell order would occur according to how you placed the sell order. If you said market sell then your broker/brokerage would try to sell (Ask) at the best price in the line of others (over simplified). If you placed a limit order at $35 then you'd have to wait for a buyer to be interested at $35 who places a limit buy (Bid) at $35 or market order and wait for that line to be dwindled through of sellers (Asks) competing if a market buy. I won't go into other order types yet.

My brokerage told me MM don't have to place my order (buy or sell). Depending on the action occurring and prices it depends how you place the order and all the situations occurring. Best bet is to "slap" the highest Bid showing to sell quickly, if the Bid has enough shares to cover your share count being sold. Or, you wait for your order type to clear if your Ask is higher than the Bid.

[cintrix]

First off, I don't think you can even use an AON for 50 shares. There is a minimum amount - you would have to check with your broker.

If you are not clear on what an AON is let me explain it using a different situation. The reason one uses an AON is so that they don't get a partial fill. So say you want to sell 5000 shares of something at $2.00, but you don't want to sell it unless you get the entire order sold at $2.00, you would use an AON. It is not a guarantee to fill and it is considered a special order so someone else could get filled in front of you.

[1990Flstf]

Stupid question but let's say I picked up 50 shares at 2$. I now wanted to sell them at or around the 35-40$ range which is where the stock is at or above. I put my sell in AON, would they sell? What would not allow it to?

[Pierre 74]

Thanks

[Pierre 74]

Thanks

[cintrix]

Listing on more than one exchange gives the stock more liquidity - I don't know that much about the Irish Exchange regarding the disadvantages to listing there.

[Pierre 74]

What are the disadvantages of a penny stock dual listing in the Irish Stock Exchange??

[Hornet915]

Thanks I understand free riding better! I do have a cash account.

[cintrix]

There is some short selling in pennies but I don't think there are that many brokers who allow it.

If you have a cash account and you buy a stock that you don't have enough to cover for and then you sell the stock before funding the account, you are free riding. You sold shares with money that wasn't in your account. If you have a margin account you don't have to worry about free riding because you are basically getting a loan from your broker to buy the stock.

[Hornet915]

Is there short selling in the OTC market? If so how does it work? Not that I will be doing that I just want to be more informed!!

Also what is free riding. I hear its illegal is that correct?

[RobinT]

Ok. Wasn't much. So I'm not worried. Thanks.

[cintrix]

They are probably under a cusip number - my guess is that you will be writing them off at the end of the year as a loss.

[RobinT]

I did own a few shares. They appear to be there still but under a number code instead of a alpha ticker. Sometimes it takes awhile to show properly. I thought the EKD ticker was being retired. Oh we'll. time will tell.

[laver]

Awesome thanks for the clarification ! Happy trading today

[cintrix]

If the mm is a seller at the ask, then you are the buyer at the ask.

If the mm is a buyer at the bid, you are the seller at the bid.

That is the rule of thumb, and if you want a definite fill, you buy at the ask and sell at the bid. But you can put in a buy at the bid price and sometimes it fills. Same as selling at the ask. It isn't guaranteed but it can happen.

[laver]

Ok I just want to clarify because I'm new to level II , the bid is what MM are buying and the ask is what MM are selling on our behalf ?

Curious because when I want to sell shares for the market price it's the Bid price I'm selling for and if I'm buying its the ask price I'm buying for kind of opposite.

[cintrix]

Because those old shares are cancelled. Hopefully, you didn't own any. If you did, you lost all your money:
http://www.otcbb.com/asp/dailylist_detail.asp?d=09/03/2013&mkt_ctg=NON-OTCBB
14:35 EKDKQ Eastman Kodak Company Common Stock 9/3/2013 100 Bankruptcy plan effective. Previously issued and outstanding shares of Kodak?s common stock have been cancelled as set forth in the Plan. Deletion time 13:44:04 **

[RobinT]

Whoops the ticker is EKDKQ. I thought I read that 500 million shares were authorized. But later the symbol was deleted. Can you clear up its status? Some 84 million dhares were traded.

[RobinT]

Eastman Kodak came out of bankruptcy today . The stock Was or IS trading as ekdqk?

[1gumbi]

Anytime JG! Just passing the help I get/got along. Hey make the most of your time in school! Good luck!

[Gixene]

1gumbi, thanks! I'll be sure to follow those boards and those people. Good luck to you as well!

[1gumbi]

Cool! focus on school good idea. I have been following a couple guys on ihub lowman on the money101 board and a guy bye the name of lowtrade on the lowtrade board. Both are very good at answering questions and chart reading in general and I thought between your book and those guys you could learn a lot. I know I have just from a few weeks of following them. good luck

[Gixene]

1gumbi, it is great! Unfortunately, I had to put a halt on TA learning for now. I'm back in college, so I have had my hands tied the past couple of weeks. The book that cintrix recommended me has been very clear and easy to understand! I'm currently learning about doji, hammers and a few other indicators. I hope I'm able to further my TA knowledge soon, but college education is a priority at the moment. I have been highlighting, taking notes and I have a page full of questions (possibly more, only a third of the way through the book) that I will need answered after I finish.

Thanks for asking, Gulley

[RJ5]

lol thanks

[cintrix]

We all have our own ways. Dave will start with a small position and when it keeps dropping he adds. I don't do that often - it isn't for me, but he seems to manage fine with that strategy. Griff won't trade anything with an X because he's superstitious lol harbs loves those penny crashes that are down over 50% - i like them as long as they aren't promos - he likes to play the promos gone bad. Just remember if you are watching that board - if Chu buys, stay the hell away from it! lol

[RJ5]

ty i understand the causes & already follow the 'boing board', u, griff, but was curious how u guys determine what a good entry point dollar wise might b. I assumed u used oversold, s/r, volume, etc.
By the way like the BB board, big fan of the show

[cintrix]

I have a lot of different criteria. I have scans set up for different exchanges. Some I have set up for 15% or higher drops. Once it triggers I immediately look to see what is making the stock go down. I check the news, and the filings. Usually there will be something in either of the two of them that gives you a good clue why it is dropping. Earnings is a major cause for stocks to drop. It could be that they are making a profit, but their guidance wasn't met - that will crash a stock. Sometimes it could be something a lot more dangerous - like they hired a firm that deals in bk. Or a biotech that got some bad news from fda trials. Or a filing that is dilutive. A lawsuit is another. A deal going bad. A contractor not renewing with a company. There are so many things that can drop a stock. Sometimes there is absolutely nothing happening and a stock drops - I like those but tread that water very carefully jic something pops up . If I determine that the selloff is an overreaction i jump in. My 15% drops are for nasdaq, nyse, and amex stocks. With pennies, if I am playing them for a bounce it needs a much bigger drop for me to even consider playing it. http://investorshub.advfn.com/BOUNCE-2346/ is a bounce board.

[RJ5]

Hi cintrix,
I think I remember reading you say u were into to bottom bounces. If you don't mind me asking how do you determine an entry if you don't use TA.

[1gumbi]

How is your charting going?

[Kristi]

I’m not sure, but you can start here for more information…. Or you can give them a call and ask them.... 800-747-2537

http://www.epinions.com/review/finc-Financial_Services-Online-Brokerages-O-Z-Sharebuilder/content_27881213572?sb=1

https://content.sharebuilder.com/mgdcon/core/financials/index.htm

Kristi

[TheWatcher51]

What MM does sharebuilder use? Does anyone know?

[Gixene]

cintrix, I bought the book and I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks

[cintrix]

I am not into TA but if you want some info about it I will pm you the person who I think is one of the best for info on that.

[Gixene]

cintrix, thank-you! There is a location nearby that has the book. I will try to pick myself up a copy sometime tonight after rush hour traffic. When I do get the book and have questions. Should I speak to you, or do you recommend another board to get help? I obviously trust your advice because I keep bugging you.