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Hydrogenics developing HiPress as 3000psi self-pressurining electolyser, and as such there should be a benefitial result from their co-operating with ITM on an upgraded HRU. They'd bring such upgrade to market quicker with better reach. Now if they could crack 5000psi, well the sky's the limit. IMO..
Timtom2
As you know Plug Power,Hydrogenics, Proton Energy, Ballard and all the rest of the US fuel cell cos make their fcs using platinum and nafion
They typically cost in excess of $3000/Kw while ITMs latest cost projection is under $250/Kw independently verified
However its not really the cost that will enable ITM to collapse the US fuel cell and electrolyzer market
Its the reliability that their devices have over the competition
This is down to the technological breakthroughs which have enabled.......
1 Moulding of the cell stack in units of 25Kw ( my calculation so it could be wrong)
2 Replacement of nafion and platinum by low cost alternatives
3 Micro control of individual cells
To name but 3 advantages all of which improve reliability
To answer your question yes I do believe that the Yorkshire Forward mini grid investment will include both an electrlyzer and a fuel cell for the reasons below
All nafion fuel cells must be supplied with pure hydrogen and oxygen or they get contaminated and lose efficiency
So they are equipped with special gas purification widgets that cost 15% of the overall cost of an already expensive fuel cell
ITM have recognised that by re using electrolytic hydrogen and electrolytic oxygen in their domestic fuel cell they can bypass this problem
This enables ITMs lower cost fuel cell to be even more reliable since nowhere in the world (or more correctly nowhere on the net ) can i find any evidence of an electrolyser /fuel cell being sold or even developed for sale as a combination unit
This is where the ITM patented tubular cylinder within a cylinder gas storage system comes into the picture
Because one cylinder is inside the other the inner cylinder wall does not have to withstand 75 bar and can be made from any suitable lightweight material
So a 30kw electrolyser can simultaneously feed oxygen and hydrogen into this special storage vessel and charge it to 75 bar A fuel cell can then draw off 1 bar hydrogen and oxygen convert it back to power very efficiently and feed the mini grid
I would be very surprised if the Yorkshire Forward min grid does not use the above process as it would represent the prototype trial for all new domestic and commercial housing development in the region
Having got Al Gore to help launch their "Cooling the Planet" initiative Yorkshire Forward have nailed their colours to the mast in the drive to clean up the environment
So it looks very much like Yorkshire Forward have identified ITM Power as one of the Region`s leading edge cos they are determined to support
We wont have long to wait as there will no doubt be a comment in the results statement next week
I wonder if it would be ITM FC's?
Sounds very promising indeed. Great find.
Yorkshire Forward are a British Government Agency responsible for promoting and investing in economic development in the yorkshire and Humber region of England This area includes Sheffield where ITM are located
Yorkshire Forward awarded ITM a grant of $1.6m in 2004 to assist in their research work into fuel cells and electrolyzers
ITM are the only fuel cell and electrolyzer co in the region capable of using wind energy to make hydrogen during periods when there is no demand for wind power
ie the hydrogen is produced at almost zero cost
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Yorkshire Forward `s Annual Report was released today and included this interesting statement
see
http://www.yorkshire-forward.com/asset_store/document/yf_ra08_full_10236.pdf
The last sentence may account for todays leap in the sp
Encouraging innovation for the low-carbon economy
We’re investing in supporting businesses to develop products and services which will help achieve our goal of a low-carbon economy.
Yorkshire Forward is investing £9.6m in the development and operation of an incubator building to support businesses entering the emerging low-carbon energy technologies market, with work due for completion in December 2008.
The Environmental Energy TechnologyCentre (EETC), to be built on land adjoining
the Advanced Manufacturing Park, Rotherham with investment from the European RegionalDevelopment Fund, will support more than 30 enterprises engaged in the development of products and services which will aid the transition to a low-carbon economy in the region. The building is a direct development
between Yorkshire Forward and the mini-grid. Businesses based here will be able to access the expertise behind cutting-edge manufacturing techniques and other technologies within the neighbouring Advanced Manufacturing Park.
Yorkshire Forward’s goal for the building itself is that it will meet or exceed the highest standards of sustainability and emission efficiency achieved in the UK to date.
The development will feature a renewable-energy wind-to-hydrogen mini-grid to supply heat and power to tenants, enabling the EETC to be self-sufficient in electricity.
Conno wrote complimenting Al Gore's Churchillian speech.
I hope to introduce him to ITM once his team respond..
Good to see you here TT
Can't resist reproducing my post on ADVFN here:-
" The civilised world has to welcome all advances that will ultimately deliver us from Big Oil and the harm its owners and lackeys have done to the world.
These advances including Nissan's are our real fight back against terror and strangling its funders resources serves to weaken then frustrate their agenda to take over the world. I think the weakness is the existing FC technology, which ITM believes it can disruptively improve . If and when it does that, ITM will earn a place amongst great companies "
Finally registered - thanks for the invite Conno.
Nothing new to add to the discussion yet.
Watched the Gore youtube. Some good sense in there. When this current deflationary (yes, deflationary as it wil turn out to be) phase is finally being tackled a big expenditure on alternative energy or a big war wil be needed to kick us back to growth. ITM are on a good spot but as always changes are taking longer than ideal.
basbas
Final word on the flowerpot men
The content and timing of the posts by various menbers of the "team" strongly suggests that
When the team (especially new poster arrivals) post that they have bought in or added near the top of a largish rise in the sp,
they are really telling each other that they have opened a short
Similarly when they post that they have just bought in at or around a largish drop in the sp they are really telling each other they have closed their short
basbas
I think the message to take from this story is to
only top up in the early 40p`s and be prepared to ride the short term cycle to 60p or so maybe sell reinvesting profit at 40p again etc avoiding negative posting on the way down
Its easy to track the antics of "The Team" and their "new" posters
I havent done it but a simple 3 col spreadsheet listing
username,
post(positive, negative,neutral),
sp direction ( up down static )
would be all that is needed
Meanwhile
Unless we get serious news eg like a Ford Roush ITM MOU, I doubt whether there will be a spike in the next 3 months or so
meaning I reckon we will go to 60p to 65p in early Aug and back to the early 40p range within 10 days or so to linger until the next piece of news
One point worth remembering is that US auto analysts will pick up on ITM turning down a US auto co As they have no chinese walls within the analyst office ITM will eventually get onto the radar of their alternative energy colleagues and possibly attract US fund interest
ITM Power LTHs should read your note Gerry and act accordingly. Yes sounds very familiar. Bill and Ben worked it with a few minions and bashers..even when Bill pretended to turn on Ben..And how they fought to keep the thread they created for you then usurped.. They do work for MMs or a trading house. There was also an incidental 2nd school to do with a research outfit. The Platinum and the Nissan comments gave it away but I think that may have played out..
If it should start again, the LTHs should know beforehand not post on your £7@2010 and never to comment, reverting to this thread. They should understand before it starts again once price moves towards the proper level.. Loads higher than £1 as of now.
I reckon Prof Highgate is too modest to want anything named after him especially when he invented the contact lens material
RE market manipulation see below
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Role of BBs in shorting ITM shares
The ITM sp has been cycling fairly regularly over the past 2yrs
Initially from 130p to 160p then 120p to 150p then 100p to 120p now 40p to 60p
This cycling is unrelated to the quality of news releases
However the news releases do generally act as a positive stimulus to the sp wherever the RNS is in the cycle
So is there any evidence that the ADVFN BBs are influencing these cycles ?
I think they are although I have no idea by how much
Consider this scenario
If you as an individual were engaged in shorting a stock you might consider some of the following
When the sp is on the way down
1 Posting negatively
2 Agreeing with negative posts posted by others
3 Rubbishing or respectfully disagreeing with positive posts
4 Multiple posting to clog the Board
5 Picking an argument with positive posters
6 Publicly filtering positive posters
7 Banning positive posters from your thread
However
Suppose you were a member of a shorting team
Suppose your day job involved working in a Trading Office
Suppose your PC was part of the Office computer network
Suppose there was a spare pc always logged onto the BB under the same Username
Suppose other members of the team had a few Usernames each
What would your ideal scenario be as far as the BB was concerned ?
Probably
To have control over the BB like a premium user can do with a moderated thread
Then
You could flood the BB with negative comments from different posters as the sp falls
And
Stop negative posting when the sp nears its resistance level
Close your shorts
Start positive posting, (if you can be bothered that is, since you own no shares)
Move on to the next shorting target and devote your efforts to that one
Wait until ITM approaches its high resistance level
Watch for genuine signs of resistance to break out
And restart the negative posting once again
Problems for the Shorting Team
Shorters only want negativity when the sp is falling so they need to muzzle or mute any LTHs who happen to be positively posting when the sp is falling
Ways to do this
1 Indulge in personal attacks The aim is to get the LTH off subject and onto a boring agenda which can be interspersed with planned negative posts while the regular LTHs posters get frustrated and take the day off
2 Flood the BB with multiple posts The aim here is to control the screen for the vast majority of ITM holders who read but rarely post
Ideally what you do is
3 Open a new thread on which you can muzzle anyone who isn’t playing the game and posting negatively in tune with the shorting team
How to open a new thread
Simple
All you do is multiple post until another team member react by offering to open a new thread
As part of the lead up to a new thread he curries favour with the regular posters for a while and attacks his fellow shorters
But he has only one agenda
And that is to control negative posting on the BB when the sp has been shorted big time
So
That’s how I think its done
Sound Familiar ?
Gerry I did not make the point well.I understand that FC H2 is more efficient than comparable H-ICE.. The Clarity looked same or slightly bigger than the Focus;it does 68 miles per KG H2..
I actually see JH giving a come on to potential partners and he rightly should not want to job all the technology in one lot to one partner; why should he, and the partners won't run away..It is but early days..
You did not comment on giving the PEM a brand name.. I thought HIGATE is fitting recognition for the inventor.. It should start clocking mileage under that name....
The ADVFN lads gauge the mood, or create it to then deal.. They could not give a peanut for the stock or the company; They would not know great technology if it got up and bit them in the ass. They'd probably sell their mothers if it made them money..It does harm confidence when done frequently and hence damage the share price.. I've often seen the syndrome ..
basbas
for info
H2 gives 33% more mpg than the car gets on petrol so if the focus gets 30mph on petrol it gets 40mph on H2
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Re auto applications
There is no way ITM would turn down an offer by an auto co to licence its fuel cell or electrolyser technology If the terms werent good enough ITM could simply stall the negotiations pleading all sorts of excuses Unless of course the other party knew there was at least 2 auto cos chasing ITM and wouldnt play ball in a dutch auction
Nevertheless
I`m still trying to figure out the reason for telling the world such negative news concurrent with the PR launch of the HRU and bi fuel car
It may simply be a gaffe by JH in a spur of the moment effort to overcome a credibility gap but thats unlikely
It may be that one auto co was turned down because ITM were already committed to a global licence with another auto co but cannot make it public until the first fuel cell vehicle is launched
mmm...... that still wouldnt explain releasing this news now although perhaps there will be a hint of why in the Results Statement due at the end of July
Re market manipulations of ITM stock
I`ve finally figured out the role of ADVFN BBs in manipulating the stockwhat is happening and will post my opinion here
ITM IS SPOILT FOR CHOICE AS TO DIRECTION to take. Proof of concept is now done in an understated British way! Word is out to the Hydrogen community that the "Dark horse has broken from a top quality herd" with a number of world firsts.. With more to come in the near term such as an FC that will have the ITM PEM made into unique MEAs with clear advantages,is in progress, OBs are an imminent possibility and selfpressurised H2 made at 200bar and possibly 300... Does ITM go with Dupont and give the whole H2 market a lift, including companies as Hy-Drives, Distributed Energy Systems, or work with a Ford MC or GM, to perfect an Auto FC and infrastructure, or work with a GE aNorsk or a Vestas in industry and agriculture .The size of the field and opportunities beggers belief. USA would see such potential
Yet in England, we had Citigroup trash the shares twice to enable bear raids, thus inviting traders in and out of the stock to an extent that has put investors off as these do not like turbulance.. ITM would be better understood here. I am sure the market will begin to understand what ITM is about sooner than later. Gerry that is why I get so irritated when trading posters come on ADVFN just to talk the shares up or down rather than enjoy the research around ITM at the dawn of a new era and be proud of what has so far been achieved.
basbas
Hy Drive as you said over on ADVFN anticipate no income for the balance of 2008 and have an existing distribution pipeline......they must be very concerned about survival
A deal with ITM would help Hy Drive
This is an opportunity which could suit both parties...
ie Hy Drive solve their OB issues at a stroke by licencing the ITM technology and ITM get an immediate income stream and a showcase in north America for their pem OB
To Ben
Now we know you read this BB
Please pass above to Jim
........and tell him I won`t breath a word about the fuel cell transit van under development by Roush, funded by Ford and due to be trialled next Summer......Its going to be at least 6 months late in any event if ITM still havent found the mythical low cost high calibre Chief Engineer they started recruiting for in Jan....
Gerry
Spent time looking up OBs & Hy-drive. Was initially concerned that someone has beaten ITM to OBs. Not so; Firstly, ITM has simpler and more cost effective product, then I learned that after test fitting few hundred units @ retail of $11500 each, product had reliability issues, sales stalled from ~$1m to ~$0. Company which had all sales, distribution, marketing lined up, but product that did not work, expects to relaunch in 2009. ITM has field clear if they move.We shall all be thanking JH for policy to hold horses till product is really ready before launch.
HY-Drive has 61m shares in issue and market cap of $120m+ being a May 2008 number I lifted from their website. No products apart from the OB to be relaunched..also they reshuffled board.. they had slick investor presentation..6m BIG trucks, 6m BIG busses, BIG market.. Asia Pacific also waiting for the product.. Sure Prof Newborough will keep things simple so ITM won't repeat mistakes..
The only real pem competition to ITM is Distributed Energy Systems Plug Power and Hydrogenics.....none of these Cos are into OBs yet perhaps because they cant get the cost down to compete with Hi Drive at $11600 for a 400w to 500w unit
Incidentally to estabish the Kw rtg of an electrolyzer from the H2 output all you do is look at the volume of low pressure H2 in Nm(cu m)/hr
A 1Kw ITM unit will deliver around 285L or 0.285Nm/Hr
that how I discovered that these OBs are so small with the average US monster truck OB being around 400w to 500w
basbas
Re Hi Drive
Norsk Hydro swimming pool size electrolysers are the Daddy of all the Hi Drive designs
They use a wet electrolyzer cell for their OB .....potassium hydroxide solution in a box wth two non platinum electrodes
The process has worked well for 100 years but does not give the same H2 purity as a pem cell,requires frequent attention ands maintenance to keep going and can freeze in winter, The wet electrolyte solution gets contaminated and this affects its operation
This design is relatively expensive to make outside the novelty ones peddled by the cheapies on the web but more durable I think its GM who have tackled this from a cost reduction standpoint with the aim of getting the cost down to around $400/Kw you can check this out yourself on the net
I would guestimate that the Hi Drive selling price of
c$11600 is so high partly because they have no competition partly because to maintain the value propostion they have went to extraordinary lengths to "prove" the payback and keep the price up
eg satellite tracking of mpg
payment on installments
no savings no charge etc
They will be liquidated as soon as ITM get their OB and system on the market
Re patents
Since the designs are different it oculd ony be the basic idea that Hi drive could claim was patented..I doubt it is patentable enough to threaten ITM since the perfect analogy is an ICE When ICEs came out others copied the idea but invented their own version Like wise with pc operating systems
Msdos v Apple v Unix
Hope this helps
Gerry
On face of it Hy-drive, a quoted canadian entity, is established with IP/Patents and sales for its OBs; I take it that this does not affect ITM going into OBs, not being first to market etc . We are also talking of relatively small PEM surface area involved in OB means saving over Nafion for 250W is not huge, so we look for further cost saving from manufacture of MEA. Is there also a simpler bop involved?
LOL, yes of course I remember. Mr Holmes would be proud of you.
Conno
Remember a few posts back we discussed the video comment by John Mitchel that he would be launching a fuel cell version of the Ford Transit in about a years time..?
And I pointed out that when the video tape ran on....... an earlier silent version appeared which was almost a replica of the official version ?
but you would need a lip reader to confirm the comments about the fuel cell transit launch in a years time ?
And I said I wouldnt be surprised if ITM wiped the tape to remove the silent version just in case there was a lip reader among the BB readers..?
Well guess what...
ITM have wiped the tape...check it for yourself
Aint it a pity I had a lip reader read it before I posted the comment .....they must think I`m really dumb to think I wouldnt
Anyway the good news is
It shows they are not only reading the ADVFN BB
They are also reading the Investor Hub BB
Yep I agree with that....
.....its just a matter of time before the fc boffins in the competitor/partners who matter .....realise they better put their hands up and tell their Boards that the reason why ITM seem to be winning business against them is that their technology is superior
I'd just like to highlight one other sentence from the 2004 h2fc link in your previous post Gerry.
Under "H2FC's View" subheading towards the end of the article we get :-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expect the PEM "establishment" to try to ignore ITM for as long as it can, then try to talk it down.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe we have passed through the "ignore" stage and have now entered the "talk it down" phase.
So, we have a little time remaining to top up our positions before we hit the last pattern of behaviour "capitulation & resignation".
Basbas OB Electrolysers
You asked over on the ADVFN Board if I could look out some cost projections for onboard electrolyzers
I`m replying here as its probably info which is of interest to this BB since OBs are currently on sale in the US and Canada
I think they are called hydrogen generators in the North America
The benefits of OBs are well known and comprise a minimum fuel saving of 18% gross, 14% net plus a reduction in emissions in the region of 90% As you know the conservative boffins at ITM insist on validating these numbers themselves before they make any claims.
Hence ITM commissioned Bi Fuel Ltd to do some work on 29 Feb 2008
While we wait for an update
And
In the sure knowledge that ITM claim to have got electrolyzer costs under £164/Kw (nb……My private calculation is $40/Kw to $60/Kw based on the Independent Consultant Marcus Newborough`s 2004 report)
See
http://www.h2fc.com/Newsletter/PDF/ElectrolyserTechnologyReportFINAL.doc
Heres some info
The average diesel HGV would need an OB rated at 250w to 300w max
So its going to be a fairly thin CD case size which can be located under the hood The power would come from the alternator and water from a 2 litre water tank. The hydrogen would be added either via a single tube going from the OB to the air intake system or in common rail diesel engines added directly to the individual tubes which inject diesel into each cylinder The electronics needed would calibrate the hydrogen flow to optimise mpg and minimise emissions This would require a few sensors feeding data from each cylinder and the exhaust back to a controller with a display panel in the cab This unit would send signals to open, close or adjust the hydrogen going to each cylinder
So
Some numbers
For a basic OB feeding the latest “common rail” engine ..
I would guesstimate around $1000 for say an Army Truck eg a vehicle with capacity to carry 7 ton
ie
The cheapest item would be the OB at around $500 if ITM weren’t too greedy and restricted themselves to a 400% mark up
The ironmongery and electronics might cost around $400 with fitting extra but probably no more than 4hrs
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
By contrast the North American Cos sell wet electrolyzers at $11600 canadian $10000 US (These need maintenance unlike ITM`s pem design)
This hefty cost has lead these cos down the road of leasing, payment by instalment ,or pay from agreed savings monitored via a satellite link and data analysis
See
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/hydrive_secures.html
and
http://www.hy-drive.com/main/pdf/Venture50-HGSprofile.pdf
I wouldnt be surprised if ITM having such a large cost AND technical advantage became extra greedy and sold over here for $2500 versus say $10000 US
Meanwhile it is comforting to note that ITM haven’t forgotten about the rail and marine applications of their OBs as mentioned in Brochure 2 on their website
Extract
“The dual-fuel approach has potential automotive, rail and marine applications and will be of particular interest to commercial vehicle manufacturers and operators as well as ;builders and operators
of diesel-engined trains and ships. ITM Power is keen to hear from interested parties who see further applications for the technology.”
so If you thought there were mouth watering profits to be had from the world wide Trucking Industry just consider what the potential is from OBs used to reduce the cost and carbon footprint of locomotives. trawlers Merchant Shipping and other marine engines
Not forgetting military applications, standbye diesel engines for back up power supplies etc
I reckon the simplest route would be for ITM to licence the engine OEMs who could then offer retrofit kits across their customer base as well as including them in new engines
Hope this helps
The USA Hydrogen House.. Where is it ?
See
http://www.hydrogenforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=423
So
ITM have a hydrogen house in the USA powered by either solar panels or a wind turbine……or maybe both…?
This raises a few interesting questions
Like
Why wasn’t the hydrogen house mentioned at the NHA ?
After all
ITM were platinum sponsors at the NHA
They said their target market was the USA
JH has said more than once that he saw the US as the most likely “first adopters” of ITM`s technology….not stuffy old Europe where people have to be compelled by taxation to change their habits
Could it just be that the hydrogen house was ready but the HRU wasn’t ..?
And JH had to postpone the whole deal ?
And J Lloyd got the blame and did the honourable thing and retired from the Board…..?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Another question
Who supplied the solar panels for ITM`s USA hydrogen house…?
Was it
A potential partner ….?
for a future USA marketing drive to sell the whole package deal of green power to convert to hydrogen to power the car and provide cooking and heating
By which I mean
solar panels plus electrolyser plus retrofit kit for car plus a temporary HEC (Iowa) gen set for re conversion of stored hydrogen to power
plus an ITM fuel cell later on if the customer wanted to upgrade the gen set
plus an option for Farmers to make ammonia from green hydrogen later on using a future version of the electrolyser
mmmm…………
..........lots of possibilities there
If so
the partner is most likely a solar panel supplier with a US operation
……..who could be a future partner for world wide sales..
but there`s a small problem
how would ITM develop such a relationship when they had told shareholders in Jan 2007 that their own solar panel work was progressing rather well and some development update might be expected later in 2007 ?.........we are still waiting for this update ?.......thats a bit unclear at the minute
,,,,,,,
Or is the USA hydrogen house really no more than…........
The place where ITM are secretly testing out their own prototype Solar Panels…?
The ones that can make ........
Either
hydrogen direct from sunlight
Or
electricity
We will have to wait and see
Another question.......
Wherabouts in the US is the hydrogen house located ?
well for sure
The location will have been chosen forspecific reasons that tied into the objectives of ITM`s development and marketing strategy
And
It would need quite a large roof to support lots of sq m of panels
Not a problem in the USA with the large footprint you get with US homes
Where could it be...?
Maybe Southern California or Florida
But more likely…… somewhere in the mid west
…..like Iowa for example
We know that
ITM did sign an MOU with HEC of Iowa in Nov 2006 …..some 20 months ago
Since then.. we have heard nothing.. …no update from ITM still waiting
So either
The HEC MOU has got nowhere and we aren’t being told
Or
The HEC MOU continues as a secret project which we will hear about when ITM are good and ready to tell us
We do know that the relationship must still be ongoing to some degree otherwise ITM would not have mentioned a small domestic HEC genset as a means of using green hydrogen to make domestic electricity
so maybe Iowa are favourite despite the green agenda in California
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
To summarise the US hydrogen home story
My money is on
A green hydrogen home……powered by at least 2 versions of an ITM solar panel
One of which makes low cost electricity very efficiently through photo voltiacs
using the new materials which enable innovations impossible
with existing solar cells
like amplifying and capturing a much wider spectrum of light than is possible today
and achieving a stepped improvement in the yield of electricity from each m2 of sunlight striking the panel
…..At a much lower cost than the current silicon solar cell used by the rest of the world
And....also
………..by making the panel sit in a “ basin “ continuously replenished with water ........
....the other solar panel
.. makes hydrogen direct from sunlight through photo electrolysis
with the home.....
Located either in southern California or Iowa
and
will figure at some stage in ITM`s marketing strategy as the place whiere videos will be taken, the media entertained and potential US partners cultivated
Not forgetting another use..........
If that is ,,,,,you hold a senior role in ITM
The US hydrogen home will be a handy place to stay when ITM executives are visiting the US...no doubt with cleaning and catering staff laid on.....just as in the old Dallas soap opera
Maybe its a Director only holiday house ……tax free of course Ah ..well
….if any of this is remotely the case then the ITM Board are certainly headed in the direction of Fortune 500 Cos
Cos that’s how these guys make sure tax free Director perks are an essential part of the ongoing business
Dupont Nafion .. flows off the tongue.. now try mouthing
"ionically conductive cross-linked hydrophilic polymer" for size.. Yes..It is a hard mouthful for our USA friends to handle. Is it not about time ITM Graced the breakthrough PEM with a BRAND NAME so as not to waste the gushing PR and the brand name can stick?
Some ITM USA news from Conno
Hi Guys. Sink your teeth into this one Appears to me as if the giants are starting to sit up and take notice. USA Article.
ITM-Power Claims Polymer Membrane Breakthrough in Hydrogen Electrolysers
ITM-Power's new polymer cuts the cost of membrane polymer
John Dodge, Editor-in-Chief -- Design News, July 14, 2008
A British company is claiming a breakthrough in electrolyser and fuel cell technology that promises to knock down one of hydrogen’s cost barriers.
ITM-Power Plc of Saffron Waldon has developed a new polymer eight years in the making that its CEO Jim Heathcote claims cuts the cost of a square meter of membrane polymer from $500 to $5. Electrolyser membranes separate hydrogen from oxygen and convert it into an energy-carrying gas. In a fuel cell, the membrane separates hydrogen protons from electrons, which produce electrical current.
“The membrane is the most expensive component in an electrolyser,” says Heathcote. Now that ITM has built an electrolyser to demonstrate its membrane technology, it’s ready to license its patented membrane technology to electrolyser makers such as Proton Energy Systems or GE here or Norsk Hydro in Norway.
“We’ve talked to big and small companies. The big ones are less nimble than smaller ones and they’ll come when they are ready,” says Heathcote.
“Close your eyes and imagine a ball of wool in your two hands. Now take giant scissors and snip it all up and ball it up in your hands. It’s still a ball of wool,” he says in describing ITM’s entanglement polymer. However, such polymers tend to last only 50-100 hours before the ends of the polymer strings are eaten away by hydrogen and oxygen, he says.
So for years, fluorine has been used to create a fluoropolymer such as Dupont Nafion, but such a membrane is expensive to the tune of $500 a square member, according to Heathcote. ITM has figured out a way to forego fluorine to get rid of the ends of the polymer strings so there is little or no degradation. ITM’s membrane is called the “ionically conductive cross-linked hydrophilic polymer” and Heathcote says it’s patented (a web search yielded a similar-sounding patented material, but for a completely different application).
“One has to be very careful with these kinds of announcements. There are a number of people who can make these membranes and there’s many different varieties. The issue is always lifetime and that takes a while (to bear out),” says John Turner, a research fellow at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, CO. “It sounds interesting, but it awaits outside verification. We all have to be from Missouri. Show me.”
In the U.S., such claims for this type of product are verified through testing at the Florida Solar Energy Center, says Turner.
As for the membrane’s durability, he can’t say.
“I can’t tell what the durability is because we can’t identify a failure mechanism,” he says, adding ITM has seen no degradation in 11,500 hours of testing. He says the membrane can be used in both acid and alkaline electrolysers. Turner says 11,500 hours is impressive, but only equates to about a year and half whereas electrolysers should last for 8-10 years.
Heathcote is keenly aware he has to prove to companies that ITM has discovered a breakthrough. That’s why ITM, he says, has a manufacturing plant in Sheffield to make a thousand electrolysers to demonstrate the technology to potential customers. Two days ago, ITM announced it has built a small home or small business that will produce about a kilogram of hydrogen that will take a duel-fuel Ford Focus a bit more than 25 miles compressed to 1,000 PSI in the car’s 3,500 PSI tank (the Dept. of Energy has set a goal of 10,000 PSI for FCV tanks in the U.S.).
“We don’t expect them believe our claim unless they kick our tires. We’ll price them just below existing electrolysers and keep reducing prices until we are sold out and have proven it’s commercially viable,” he says. “What we’ve done is a complete step change. One U.S. group told us we’ve jumped two generations ahead of the world.”
That remains to be seen.
“It’s hard to know where people stand on how close they are to commercialization,” says James Provenzano, co-author of the book The Hydrogen Age.
http://www.designnews.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6578132&industryid=43654
A Few speculative thoughts on a down day
In the light of all the news released since the 9 July media day it is interesting to contrast what was said with the interview given by JH to The Engineer Magazine on 3 June
See
http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/306484/Power+play.htm
Talking about the HRU
“The first systems will be commercially available this year after 10 or 15 years of development. The launch model will be able to produce hydrogen with a pressure of about 75 bar, enough to fill the car tanks Heathcote envisages. 'The higher the pressure, the more expensive it becomes,' he said. 'Commercial companies may want a lower-pressure system, but a with hydrogen compressor to take it up to 300 bar.”
Later on he said
“ITM has been testing its electrolyser technology for more than 10 years. Durability and chemistry testing has already been completed, and pressure testing is under way.”
Well if you put these two comments together it suggests that
1 bar is proven for use in an HRU
75 bar is proven for use in an HRU
75bar HRUs will be available to buy this year
Commercial cos wanting 300bar HRUs this year will need to buy a hydrogen compressor and use it to get the HRU output up to 300 bar
But somewhat puzzlingly JH goes on to say that pressure testing is still continuing at ITM as late as June 2008
…. When
ITM had already announced that 75 bar had been successfully achieved 12 m earlier in June 2007
So
If 75 bar is proven why are ITM continuing to pressure test..?
The only explanation really is that ITM hope to offer an HRU at a much higher pressure than 75 bar
So what do ITM say to a co who are about to buy several 75 bar HRUs for their fleet of converted
Commercial vehicles….?
Go and buy yourself a 300bar hydrogen compressor….?..this is what JH has just said
Well
in the world of engineering business this would be a diasastrous marketing strategy
Fine for one off gov funded projects like what goes on in many Unis…
But not they way you market your product commercially
At a minimum
If ITM were genuinely intent on selling to 300 bar customers who didn’t already posses a hydrogen compressor
They would need to offer a hydrogen compressor as part of the package
So why is this such a big issue…?
Well
the real target customers for HRUs are the auto manufacturers who have a pressing need for a low cost 300 bar system to fill a 300 bar H2 tank in their nafion fuel cell vehicles which are under development
So when they heard that ITM have a 75 bar electrolyser their immediate question would be to ask if a 300 bar version was on the cards..?
And
Very likely
At least one of them would offer technical and financial help to ITM develop the 300 bar electrolyser
…. In exchange of course for an exclusive licencing deal to offer the HRU with their fuel cell vehicles..?
Why do that when a low cost ITM fuel cell may be just around the corner.?
Because here is a dire need particularly in the US to seed the market with fc cars
And this is being strangled by a lack of infrastructure which in its turn causes low interest in fc cars It’s a a vicious circle that can only be broken by the rapid spread of low cost HRUS in gas
stations
What would be the only explanation for ITM turning down a licencing offer from a mjor US auto co…?
Well
It has to be that ITM are almost there themselves and didnt like the terms of the offer
ie
They are expecting to unveil a 300bar unit later in the year
and then watch the rush for licences
Some potential US investors looking at the ITM website presentations may feel Jim Heathcote is over the top in his public persona
He has frequently been described as a evangelist for the hydrogen economy and as recently as last week stood accused of hyperbole by one media commentator
Actually its a very valid comment reflected in many BB posts by ITM investors in the UK
Let me say up front right now that…… personally…… I have always been uneasy about the claim by ITM that they
“hold the keys to the hydrogen economy”
One is tempted to reply
“Do you indeed …
how about some proof………? ”
For ITM to…….
Hold the keys to something , repeat it frequently, and write it across the bottom of many press releases……
They really need to be confident of what the phrase means…..
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
So
Heres a definition
To hold the keys to the hydrogen economy you need to control…..
Both
“The CAPITAL and the REVENUE cost of supplying hydrogen to the world”
Which is a pretty big claim
Its one thing to claim you can make a fuel cell or an electrolyser that is cheaper than anyone else in the world…….
Its quite a separate claim to say you can control the REVENUE cost of hydrogen
Having studied all 48 patents held by ITM Directors and staff
I conclude that this rather arrogant view may well be quite sincere……..
I suspect it is predicated on a belief that ITM think they can translate some interrelated prototypes into viable products
……….which impact the CAPITAL and REVENUE cost of the hydrogen economy
Well
having thought about this
i reckon all we can rely on in this world ....energy wise
.. is
that there will be daylight energy from the sun every day.......not sunlight energy ..just daylight energy...
..on a more likely probability than wind enrgy
So
this suggests ITM have concocted their claim, not from a discovery they thought would revolutionise the world of electrolysers or fuel cells
But
from a discovery they thought would revolutionise the world of solar energy
This is based on looking at the chronology of ITMs various patents which clearly started in the world of solar cells and later moved on to fuel cells and electrolysers
So ITM probably have....... right now :
,A low cost high efficiency prototype photo electrolysis solar panel converting light directly into hydrogen for storage at high pressure…..and also capable of making electricity (as an alternative to hydrogen) at a much lower cost than a silicon solar panel can make electricity
But
The ITM solar panel also giving a higher yield and lower cost than the best existing silicon based solar panels
So
Technically
……the silicon solar cell may never be able to compete with the ITM solar cell
And hence
…..for areas with enough solar radiation
The ITM solar panel may become the standard for low cost domestic solar panels
for both power and hydrogen
Well
If this is true then ITM`s technology can control the cost of solar energy to such an extent that it could replace silicon as the world standard semi conductor for solar cells
If so
ITM`s claim becomes credible........ albeit almost too fantastic to digest
.......unless you are a LTH who has lived through the history of ITM
Then
it all falls into place
Having cornered the market in being the most efficient (ie revenue) and lowest cost (ie capital ) for producing hydrogen
ITM could truly justify their claim to have cornered the market
Since it implies they can ultimately provide……….
The lowest cost solar cell
……. with the highest conversion efficiency
……… in the world……!
And
The lowest cost method of transforming this solar energy into
hydrogen power for multiple uses as at present
So
Technically anyway
If development work since the patents wer lodged confirms the original decisions to lodge the original patent
The evidence suggests that
…….. despite the many criticisms Jim Heathcote gets regularly on this BB
…..many from me in the past ……..and no doubt in the future
The Guy may just be right in the strategy he is clearly embarked on………
i.e.
ITM may well "Hold The Keys To The Hydrogen Economy"
We shall see
Conno
Glad you agree re fc transit van being quoted as being available next year
Although obviously we could both be wrong,..
......we are building up a lot of talking points for the Sterling Millionaires Dinner .....
i.e.
Despite the sp sitting at around $1.10 today
I hope we hit $30 before we eat
so that basbas can join in....although he might only be up
$1m
He has been a very regular shrewd poster all along
Despite all the sp gyrations he remains a committed investor who like us understands the true significance of the technology
Personally I remain very confident of the future although I believe the recession may mean hard numbers based on severe forward projections are needed to achieve the results....
either way
this is a superb share for tucking away
Gerry
Played the video over and over to a couple of the guys at work today....Both were of the opinion that he did say "In a years time". Well spotted and I'm happy to be in the minority.
As someone pointed out on the other board, did you also notice the large military truck parked outside the Roush workshop doors at the start of the video and half way through? OB trial maybe?
Conno
I stll reckon he said "a year" ......maybe if we correlate the lips on both versions we can confirm it either way
In any event if I`m right it ties in with some other deductions Ive made......
which iI will cover when finished
firstly on this BB .......
Interesting Gerry but I'm not sure if I interpreted what he said the exact same way as yourself. I transcribed word for word what he said and I think it could mean something else. However the stutter in the second part could be a give away. First the transcript.
"and it will be the same infrastructure that we are putting in that will come later for the FC obviously. Urm, these vehicles are available today [this is the point he gestures looking over his shoulder at the Transit] This one will be available in August [08?] but they're available today. The FC will be in (?) years time [To my ear he misses out "a" i.e "in a years time"? "in years time" could just be a manner of speech meaning in many years time when FC's do become cheaper?]
However the next part a few seconds later when he stutters* a little is curious and you might be on to something there :-
"as it will be for the FC vehicle that's going to come along lat*[er] years late to come"
basbas, BABBO get the video on your computer before it's re-edited as we need a third and fourth opinion. The highest vote wins
ps. As Gerry points out the video is badly edited towards the end with a silent repeat segment running on. If someone has a family member with lip reading abilities we might uncover a snippet or two
Basbas, ITM have posted some interesting videos on their website
I`ve had a detailed look at one of them… the Roush presentation by John Mitchell
Like all video presentations what you finally see is a cut and paste job ……”editing” to the professional movie makers
John tries to give the impression he is doing this interview off the cuff. He certainly wasn’t reading a script and will have rightly chosen to try to come across natural and conversational which he did pretty well
However given the importance of the video to Roush he will have been working off bullet points on a story board held by somebody
Having done this kind of thing myself the difficulty with bullet points is always in sticking to the message Every rerun you say something slightly different
If you let the video run on to the very end you will see an earlier silent version of what was said I hope nothing too secret was said unintentionally as it would only take a smart lip reader to work out what it was
He has done a pretty good job at sticking to the message except for letting slip that Roush will have a Ford Transit powered by an ITM fuel cell in August 2009
You have to listen carefully as it isn’t expressed in those words but he clearly says that a fuel cell version of “that” pointing to the van will be available in a years time
There is an attempt to edit a repeat of this comment later on which results in a couple of words of gibberish
There are a number of highly significant technical and commercial conclusions with massive sp implications that can be inferred about the working relationships between Roush, Ford and ITM from the message which I will summarise in a later post on this BB
All in all I was extremely pleased almost ecstatic by the
information it revealed
ps I wouldnt be a bit surprised if ITM replace this video over the weekend with one that wipes the silent bit
Thanks for the breakdown, pretty incredible figures.
Here in Saudi 91 octane is 45 Halala a litre which works out to be around 46 cents a gallon [annoying eh?]
Thailand is slightly more expensive than the States Premium gas at around $4.75 a gallon
Conno If the UK are paying $8.57 per US gal now and it is expected to rise to $ 10.90 per US gal
Then they could save quite a bit of money by converting their petrol cars to run on hydrogen
Here`s some information that might help
All pem electrolyzers on sale today in the US use platinum as a catalyst which they coat on to the two electrodes. The more platinum that is used the greater is the volume of hydrogen obtained fron each Kw of power Because platinum is so expensive the manufacturers have to balance the cost of platinum used against the hydrogen obtained this is called the cell efficiency
So
while all pem electrolyzers are capable of efficiencies in the 90% all pem manufacturers have found that the break even point is well below this figure Indeed a similar situation exists with fuel cells which also need platinum
We know from published US data that green energy from wind costs 5 cents/Kw to 7 cents/Kw We also know from ITM data that the cost of a 10 Kw electrolyzer works out at 1.6cents/Kw over a 10,000 hr life
On this basis I calculate the following "all in " cost for a US gas car retrofitted to use hydrogen for the first 25mls to 100mls per day and then switch over to gas This was the scenario envisaged by the ITM CEO Jim Heathcote
Elect....Kwh,.......H2 cost equiv to one US gallon
eff......Reqd..............5c/Kwh...........7c/Kwh
................................$..............$
95%.......27.51...............1.39............1.94
90%.......29.03...............1.47............2.05
85%.......30.74...............1.55............2.17
80%.......32.66...............1.65............2.30
75%.......34.84...............1.76............2.45
70%.......37.33...............1.88............2.63
65%.......40.20...............2.03............2.83
60%.......43.55...............2.19............3.06
55%.......47.51...............2.39............3.34
I reckon ITM can get around 90 to 95% efficiency while the best pem platinum electrolyzer will struggle to be cost effective at 60% to 65%
So even if the selling price was the same, an ITM Home Refuelling Unit ought to be able to make the equivalent of gas at say$2/gal versus $2.80/gal to $3.00/gal
But the selling prices wont be the same as ITM have already proved that they can mould an electrlyzer for something like 7.5% of the cost of similar units on sale today
This is not to say that ITM will sell at say 10% of the selling price of the competition......why should they when they have a technically superior product
However the current high price of electrolyzers is stifling growth so my guess is that ITM will launch in the USA at something like 50% of the competition
..... which unfortunately is probably the kiss of death for Hydrogenics
enough for now
PS How much is gas in Saudi....and Thailand ?
Gerry, maybe interesting for USA readers to understand what's going on at the pumps in the UK. It has just been predicted that UK gas prices are likely to hit around $3 A LITRE !! NOT GALLON !! by the end of the year. Oh how we long for a USA $4 gallon in dear old Blighty. The need for ITM's piece of plastic has never been greater.
http://money.uk.msn.com/investing/news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=8854580
Update from UK poster "notverygood"
I registered with the contact us section of ITM and they are mailing out announcements ... I got this last night..
Dear ,
Yesterday we launched our Home Hydrogen Fuelling Station (Green Box) in London after many years of research and development.
It was an extremely successful event in which we generated a huge level of interest in both the Green Box, the Hydrogen bi- fuel car and in ITM Power as a company.
We have updated our website to include two new brochures. 'Technology' helps to explain the patented materials in which ITM Power uses and 'Applied' highlights the Green Box and the HICE Ford Focus.
There was huge interest in ITM Power during the event which allowed us to highlight the important developments we have made. We hope that any specific enquiry that you may have had was answered, though if you would like to discuss anything further, please do not hesitate to contact us.
In addition to these two updates, we have put together a Launch Presentation which includes an interview with the Managing Director of Roush Technologies. This presentation can be viewed here
If you missed any of the National and International coverage which we received, the BBC News Channel report can be viewed here. We will also be collating a number of other media materials which will also be added to our website in the 'Press' section over the next few days.
We hope this has helped to keep you updated on the development of ITM Power, though if you would like to discuss anything further, please do not hesitate to contact us.
For further information on ITM Power, please visit our website.
If you know of a colleague or a friend who may be interested in this email, please click here to send them a copy.
Kindest Regards
Becky Markillie
Pleanty of links in it to the new material on the webiste..
Heres an interesting comment from another ADVFN thread which may explain why the ITM UK thread is periodically invaded by the man and good guy
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It's a well known goatfact that everyone who posts on this thread is in the employ of Blackrock.
Though I've never understood why, when we all sit next to each other, we chat on here, rather than just pop our heads over the top of the trading screens?
Pinkkfish over on our ADVFN UK ITM BB has found a great link to Intelligent Energy
who were one of the NHA representatives calling on the US Senate to accelerate development of a hydrogen infrastructure from green energy
Their message was a mirror image of ITM`s development of low cost hydrogen
i.e.
ITM can do NOW what the NHA were appealing to the US Gov to instigate
ie
Provide a low cost method of capturing and storing green energy particularly stranded green energy in the form of hydrogen to use as a means of lopping the peaks off daytime power demand
and provide a really cheap source of fuel for H2 transport
See
http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2221172/intelligent-energy-calls-senate
babbo
Good example of how ITM have taken a single giant step while BMW have ran a marathon and lost
By assuming that the norm MUST be 300mls BMW end up going down the road of liquid H2 whic means they get involved in 15% to 20% energy losses simply to fill the tank plus a high tank cost and evaporation problems
However their logic for doing this is a bit like the logic of all the other ITM competitors
ie
We must use nafion so lets develop better ways than the competition of coping with the deficiencies of nafion ,,,,,,,,,leading to a hopelessly uneconomic fuel cell versus the ICE
AND
We have no low cost infrastructure to supply hydrogen at short mileage intervals or at home so lets assume 300mls is the minimum range
which leads you down the road of liquid H2 and a very costly and inefficient fuel tank
ITM Hydrogen car compared with BMW's
http://cleantechinvestor.co.uk/content/view/1032/1/
Apologies if already posted
Watch the video and sell your platinum shares
The arrival of a hydrogen hybrid car and non platinum electrodes spells the beginning of the end for platinum
which has rocketed in price partly because of demand for its use to coat electrodes in fuel cells and catalytic converters
ITM Power have slashed the cost of kickstarting the hydrogen age with their new non platinum electrolyzers and wil shorlty be doing the same with the electrolyzers mirror image........ the fuel cell
Hard to believe....?
Watch the video excerpt Sky News satellite channel for Wed 9 July 2008
see
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Archived-Content/Environmental-Motoring-ITM-Power-Hydrogen-Car-Fuelling-A-Green-Machine/Video/200807215029415?lpos=Latest+Video_10&lid=VIDEO_1541489_Fuelling+A+Green+Machine&videoCategory=Latest+Video
Hydrogen engine Center Iowa have posted an update on their MOU with ITM on their website at
http://www.hydrogenenginecenter.com/userdocs/2008_July_NWL_Sgl_Pgs.pdf
Reproduced below
HEC is also involved in a Memorandum of Understanding with ITM
Power plc, a United Kingdom-based electrolyzer and fuel cell
manufacturer. According to ITM’s website, existing industry
standard membrane material is estimated to cost $500 per sq
metre, ITM's membrane costs $5 per sq metre. This allows ITM to
produce a lower-cost electrolyzer. The agreement between HEC
and ITM allows both parties to work together to build a turn-key
system involving ITM’s electrolyzer and HEC’s hydrogen-fueled generator systems.
With this system a renewable resource would create energy to operate the elelctrolyzer,
which would then power the HEC hydrogen-fueled power generation system.
The photo to the right displays the HEC genset produced specifically for this project with ITM Power. The combination of HEC’s hydrogen-fueled internal combustion
engine with ITM’s low cost electrolyzer could provide the essential technology to convert low-value, intermittent,
renewable energy (wind, solar) into a reliable, non-fossil energy supply.
According to the National Hydrogen Association, the main commercial advantages of hydrogen production by
electrolysis are its scalability and the emission-free production of hydrogen. This is the most common
method used to produce renewable hydrogen and involves the separation of water into hydrogen and oxygen
using an electric current. In addition, renewables rarely provide continuous power (e.g., wind doesn’t
blow consistently and the sun isn’t always out), so hydrogen can increase stationary power reliability
when used as an electricity storage device. Even after looking at the costs and benefits of the future
conjunction between hydrogen and renewable energy technology, the future is a promising one
(Source: www.hydrogenassociation.org).
Conno
some more giveaways by ITM from your excellent find in the Yorkshire Post article
To name but one (others to follow)
The article said
"The group is currently working on an industrial hydrogen refuelling system which it said could be used by local authorities and multinationals. This would compress the hydrogen, allowing vehicles to travel much further without refuelling."
I interpret this as saying ITM are working on a 300 bar electrolyzer able to extend the vehicle range to
4 x 75 bar = 300bar
Why this interpretation ?
Because technically having proven electrolyzing at 75 bar you either go on to prove electrolyzing at 300 bar
Or you use an off the shelf H2 compressor
You would NEVER try to design your own version of an H2 compressor........
in order to compress from 75 bar to 300 bar
That would be plain daft
So....the 300bar elctrolyzer is on the cards as I have been predicting and hoping for
In any event....
the conservatively minded and life cycle testing inclined Prof Highgate would not permit mention of a 300bar electrolyzer if he hadnt tested one already
.........
Another straw in the wind verifying 300bar was the article in the Engineers Magazine in early June
This mentioned a ridiculous cost of £3000 for an onboard storage tank albeit it was claimed that the price would drop with volume production...
However even for a prototype, £3000 is what you might pay for a 350bar to 500bar tank ........not a 75 bar tank
Think about / look it up .....for goodness sake ......
you can buy a 250 bar pub gas cylinder for £150/£200
Ergo
JH was actually using real prices but putting it in the context of a 75 bar electrolyzer
And he would only do that for one reason and one reason only
That is
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
ITM may never launch a 75 bar 10Kw HRU linked to a retrofit kit
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
since .......technically........ when releasing news
It makes sense to go in low and only deal in certainties
The first mention of a 75bar HRU was in a press release last year when the 75 bar achievement was trumpeted
The info released on 9 July confirms that events have moved on
since last year More technical progress has definitely been made, 300bar is now something to mention publicly (via hints about 100ml range)
The final clincher is the link to Roush and the joint news release issued on 28 March
See
http://www.roush.co.uk/files/hydrogen-powered-vehicles.pdf
This news release avoided any reference to mls per day but did indicate the same target market as mentioned yesterday in reference to local authorities and major fleets with limited daily mileages
ie The 75bar 10Kw HRU is not targetted at the Local Authority type user...
A much bigger unit is in the offing..possibly a 300 bar 25Kw
electrolyzer
Finally to confuse matters further the Yorkshire post article mentions a gal of H2 per night from offpeak
This is only one Kg of H2 versus 3Kg mentioned elswhere so it is either a mistake or there is indeed a domestic target market for which offpeak is one of the main power sources
and if thats the case then the domestic HRU is either
a 300bar 10K electrolyzer
Or
a 75 bar 5Kw electrolyzer
enough for now
WELL DONE ITM:A DARK HORSE BREAKING AWAY FROM A TOP CLASS FIELD
One reality check to measure how good a new product or method is likely to be is the smell test..
Now for Peter Hargreaves to pin his flag to the mast in no uncertain way, even more now than he did on 31st January 2008, is no bull.. I agree that this is a great British invention and have said so months ago..
To irritate Dr David Hart of Imperial College Hydrogen section and have him and his minions briefing in a silly losers way is a shame, as I had always believed that honesty in science is paramount.. they Should congratulate ITM and Britain for continuing to breed ingenuity.. which may yet get us out of the mess Mr Blair made on his way to deliver this country to Europe...ITM's technology is a National Asset like Microsoft was a USA asset which America values...
To stir and irritate the Platinum interests is further pointer to how seriously ITM's invention can be treated .. No one posts persistently { Cheap PR } without an agenda..My agenda is a) I am heavily invested in ITM and b) Big Oil and its servants have done enough damage to the world, ecologically, politically, etc..
There are many other agendas that will no doubt emerge some pleased but others miffed..
I expect more news, brokers reporting, Panmure Gordon revising targets, Nomura Code to comment, engineering and science journals reports, advisor team to be freshened up, and a string of more real news of breakthrough products and deals from ITM and Yorkshire.. Most of all the boffins at the big Nafion users will not turn up their noses.. Dupont may want to co-operate.. many more doors opening
Congratulations ITM and the Team especially Dr Highgate ..
Conno Yorkshire Post ed best news yet.. How many major car makers in USA? Each major is major enough.. Likely other major world car makers should not be far behind..
Roll out of concept on home turf in Yorkshire far sighted
..Smart people are Yorkshiremen so it could well happen..
Gerry analysis of RNS at nil platinum both clear & Useful thanks
Babbo post mention need to log out from here to get into £7@2010
No prob Gerry.
Now this one is current and most interesting indeed... Ford????
"ITM has already been approached by a major American car manufacturer about licensing its technology, but said it intends to keep the technology in-house until ready to commercially produce it."
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Firm-unveils-hydrogen-solution-to.4274009.jp
So within the next 6 to 12 months we should see a major licensing deal?
Well spotted Conno ....readers please note
basbas, what post were you referring to?
"Gerry I discovered that from Babbo's post yesterday"
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ITM Power are an English Fuel Cell and Electrolyzer Co listed on the London AIM Market They have around £25m in cash and a cash burn of under £5m pa
Website http://www.itm-power.com/
ITM make the astonishing claim that they hold the keys to the hydrogen economy
This claim is based on new patented membrane materials for use in fuel cells , electrolyzers photo voltaic cells (solar cells) and photo electrolysis cells ( which produce hydrogen direct from sunlight).
This material is 1% of the cost of the world industry standard Nafion made by Dupont
It is 25% more conductive than Nafion and does not suffer from many of the features which cause nafion fuel s cells and electrolyzers to be so expensive
These advantages over Nafion are:
The material is hydrophilic ( water tolerant ) unlike Nafion which must be kept dry
The material can be acid or alkaline unlike Nafion which can only be acidic
The material is not dependent on platinum catalysts and works well with low cost catalysts
The material can operate at either high current density or high voltage
The material water flow can be controlled ultrasonically
In addition
Individual cells in a stack can be switched on or off or varied unlike Nafion cells which can only be controlled at the stack level This means for example that the output of a 100Kw stack can be controlled in steps of 200w or 0.2%
The material is cheap to buy
The cell stack can be moulded in multiples of around 25Kw at a volume of 1m3 simply by pouring the liquid membrane material into a fuel cell or electrolyzer frame inside a box. When irradiated with gamma rays the unit becomes solid
The overall impact of these advantages is that ITM fuel cells and electrolyzers can be made for under 10% % of the selling price of the current best in class and will deliver a higher and more reliable performance
The membrane material has been successfully operated as an electrolyzer on a test rig on a 30min/off 30min on cycle for over 10000hrs
ITM fuel cells will be suitable for deployment in a wide range of products including, portable power requirements (e.g. laptops, mobile phones), domestic power plants, UPS systems, distributed (non-grid) power, motor cars and other forms of transport.
ITM electrolyzers have a wide range of applications including the production of hydrogen from off peak or green power
for use as
A fuel in domestic low carbon housing to produce peak power or use in cooking or heating
An additive to diesel where a saving of 14% in mpg is obtained together with reduced emissions (road transport, locomotives, ships and planes)
A fuel for hydrogen powered cars either manufactured at gas stations or in a home Refuelling Unit
Standbye engines
Improving combustion performance of power station boilers
Cooling power station generators
Low cost / high performance replacement for catalytic converters
Business Model
ITM intends to build income streams from a variety of sources as the advantages of ITM systems are recognised. ITM does not intend to become a large scale manufacturer but will seek to join industry partners and OEMs to deliver low cost solutions, although there may be occasions where low volume high margin production would be undertaken.
It is therefore envisaged that revenues will primarily be generated by commercialisation of both technologies
via four main avenues:
. joint ventures;
. licensing;
. grant funding; and
. niche manufacturing opportunities.
ITM claim their electrolyzer can be made for under $164/Kw
The true cost is probably around $60/Kw in high volume production
Current electrolyzers on the market today sell for over $2000/Kw
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On 9 July 2008 unveiled a a 10Kw Home Electrolyser Unit at a media event in England The volume cost of this Home Refueler is approx $4000 with a projected life cycle of at least 10000 running hrs (last real time test was over 11500hrs)
The Home Refueller is capable of making H2 at 75 bar from offpeak power for around $1.83 per gal of gasolene equivalent Approx 3hrs of electrolysis are needed to make the H2 for one gal of gas
ITM will also be offering a 75 bar retrofit H2 tank and system which will comfortably give 25mls per day in a Ford Focus Greater mileages are possible with vehicles capable of taking larger 75 bar tanks
A collaboration agreement with Roush Technologies UK was announced on 28 March 2008 to jointly market ITM`s Home Electrolyser and a Roush hydrogen/gas Ford Transit
A Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) has been signed with United States Naval Undersea Warfare Center to investigate unmanned submarine applications for ITM`s dual liquid fuel cells
An MOU has been signed with HEC of Iowa to develop non polluting green energy systems
An agreement has been signed with Mike Strizki of Renewable Energy International to provide electrolysers for hydrogen homes in the Caribbean
A productionised version of a dual liquid non inflammable micro fuel cell has been demonstated to military agencies
A project to make liquid fuel from atmospheric carbon dioxide and hydrogen from an electrolyser has produced encouraging results
A 2004 project to use low cost patented materials to replace silicon in a solar cell and therebye increase conversion efficiency is showing promising results
Hydrogen/diesel combustion trials have demonstrated that a hydrogen / diesel mixture of 20% to 30% in common rail engines will provide the same performance at greatly reduced pollution
The addition of 7% hydrogen enables engines running on natural gas to half their already low emissions and improve their mpg This hydrogen can be sourced for free using buses and similar vehicles via a low cost ITM electrolyzer powered by roof mounted solar panels
A site worth visiting is Greg Blencoe of Hydrogen Discoveries. Greg has been tireless in promoting the cause of the role of hydrogen in the global green economy His impartial assessment of ITM technology vindicates the belief of all LTHs
ie
If ITM can deliver what they claim, then they are in the forefront of opening up the hydrogen economy
see
http://www.hydrogendiscoveries.com/
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