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bar1080,,,I actually think it already started, but will take several qtrs to get better,,,as I stated earlier I'm looking for some divvie growth with a stable to up pps,,,lol. I want it all.
Major cleanup needed in aisle "AOD"
I got into aod at the wrong time(last top at 4.50), however I got into it looking for the divvie not the pps growth. My rule is that if the divvie is cut by more than 10% I cut losses and move on. I'm out with small loss, but peace of mind here.
For those still long, I hope it goes to the moon,,,lol.
GLTA
Keycruiser, thx,,,I also like this site for individual research.
http://www.dividendchannel.com/
Just remember to "spread the wealth" or "don't put all of your eggs in one basket." I try to never (never say never) buy more that one fund out of the same fund family, unless I check their individual characteristics to make sure they're not the same type of investments.
BTW, I just looked at AOD's B/A, and you're right, it could open down 20 - 30 cents. It has dropped below 4 before, and re-bounded. I think the "fiscal cliff" deal left investors feeling better about the tax on dividends, so they took the risk of high dividend funds. 6.7% doesn't look as good as 16.7%.
PHK yes,,,I've been tracking a basket of Pimco funds,,,,they have great management with Gross and El Arien(not sure of spelling)
Or....... The PPS will rise, and the dividend will increase. AOD's biggest holding is Apple, and we know where that's gone the last few months, down $200.
There are several boards that discuss dividend plays. Just type "dividends" in the search box. The 2 securities that bar1080 mentioned have performed well over the years. Another one I like is PHK.
Here's a great website, but do your research carefully. The highest dividend plays are not always the best.
http://www.dividendyieldhunter.com/
In this case the price will drop because of the dividend cut announcemnet. The Annoucment came from the fall in price over time kinda like a loose loose situation. Price will drop by 50% over time to adjust to the new dividend rate. Not a very pretty picture for sure.
Yep, it's a catch 22. Does the price drop because the dividend is cut, or is the dividend cut because the price drops...???
There are boards here for NLY and IVR. IVR's had a great year. Mortgage REIT performance depends on the trust making the right combination of bets and the timing. I also follow ARR. I'm not convinced that REIT's will do well over the long run. They've been around for maybe 50 years and their track records are just so-so.
How would mREIT's do in a period of rising mortgage rates? Probably get destroyed. So don't bet the farm.
Let's keep this group for CEF equity funds. I guess we could talk about some beyond the Alpine Group. I don't hate CEFs. But those from Alpine and Cornerstone are quite dubious, in my opinion.
Does anyone here know a good board on IHUB to discuss dividend plays. I'm pretty much a long term investor. I wanna build some positions for income in the long term.
Based on current bid/ask, AOD will open lower on Tues. but you never really know till the bell rings with these.
I think you gotta see how they are gonne trade first and not just dump at the open.
Had to look up IVR. I think I used to trade that when it was called something else? Darn, why didnt' you tell me about that a year ago.. Good job on that one.
I've owned NLY and IVR, they both are back on the upside with the feds efforts now loosing influence on the share price via the spread on the rates.
This last quarters dividend will be the lowest for NLY and from this point out they should increase.
Another shrinking dividend security. This held up very well through the housing turmoil. I've owned NLY for quite awhile getting in around 15 - 17. Again, using the DRIP plan, I can't complain. The last couple divvys were .50+ but they change every quarter, which is AOD's plan now with the monthly divvys instead of announcing them 3 months ahead. (I only use my dollar cost averaging on one stock at a time)
Unfortunately, I did get burned with a couple of REIT's during the downfall, but I'm still holding them. (yes, I'm stubborn) One of them RHY, which is now HMH acted the same way AOD has. My divvy's went from $300 a month to $30 a month. But I still kept using the DRIP, and just got a $2800 check from an SEC settlement, so I'm back in the green on that after many years. Two of the other REIT's I owned quit paying dividends, one finally started paying them again, but no DRIP. The other one changed it designation so it's not a REIT any more, and it tanked, but has been holding steady, so I buy shares of that with the divvys from the other one! You're right though, the good REIT's are making a come back.
Can't wait 'till Tuesday to see what AOD does.
Hey not to distract from the AOD board, but I believe you can find higher dividends now with REITs..
I've been seeing upgrades on NLY lately.
The divy is at .45/quarter and its pretty solidly managed.
No apology necessary, bar1080 was right, the distrubution rate was way too high. I'll still get my .055 this month, then wait and see what the PPS does with the divvy cut. Maybe I'll buy more at .50!
Sorry dude, the writing was clearly on the wall with this ETF.
Now the dang share price will drop 30-40% and then they will have to R/S
To keep it listed.
Death Spiral may start.
Or not.
AIMHO
Hope he put the stop in..
This clearly is only profitable for the fund managers, long term.
Thanks TD.
NEWS: Div Slashed... again!:
Bar1080 said (1/17/13): "Don't get too used to it, Keyscruiser. The current 5 1/2 cent distribution will probably soon go the way of the 12 cent distribution from 2009 and the 18 cent distribution from 2008."
Just Out: "The regular monthly distribution for AOD will be $0.027 per share versus the previous month’s distribution rate of $0.055 per share. Annualized, this new distribution rate of $0.324 per share represents a current distribution rate of 6.97% on AOD’s closing NAV of $4.65 per share on January 17, 2013"
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alpine-total-dynamic-dividend-fund-234800322.html
green is better than red..
That worksheet was only to give you an idea of that strategy, not the exact method I used or of course when or how may shares I bought at one time. I can assure you that I'm in the green (NOT ZERO) and could sell at a profit, but prefer getting the "dividends." At this time, I'm no longer re-investing or purchasing any more shares, I'm using that strategy with another security right now. I've reduced my PPS drastically, and hoping for a buyout of that particular energy company. I didn't even want the stock, they bought a company I owned at a huge discounted price, so I got stuck with the shares.
BTW, I ran out that spreadsheet this morning, and it would be 20 more years before a zero position. Like I said, you have to be young to get started. Regardless, I'm happy with my AOD investment, but after listening to you guys, I've put in a stop loss at my PPS price. As far as ROC, I do subtract my "dividends" each month from my dollar amount invested, lowering my PPS.
And there's always the chance that AOD will rebound, keep the faith. So as to my ZERO comment, I apologize, if I sold today I would be green, getting all my money back with a profit! ZERO investment!
It's possible he's done OK in AOD but only if he bought about 4 years ago, not 5 years ago, especially around March 2009, when the market and AOD bottomed. The S&P 500 has since doubled. Just about any stock, aside from pennies, has done well since then. Most have done far better than AOD.
I benchmark all my investments against the S&P 500, which has been my core holding for 20 years. Very, very few investments beat the S&P.
---
"AOD on it's website has the facts,"
I've studied their website. Getting the facts isn't easy there. BTW, I believe that Apple is now AOD's #1 holding.
thanks for the effort...
what I see after all that time is, you paid almost a dollar more per share over time than you could of today.
Technically, you lost 25% of your money, so nothing close to zero/free trading status.
someone else has your cash, you paid them with no return.
good luck
I have gone back and done the math, and you are correct, I'm NOT at zero! It will take a few more years..LOL!!! However, I am NOT at a loss, I'm showing a profit, and that I CAN prove. Rather than sharing my finances with you, I've attached a worksheet showing what would happen If you bought 1 share 5 years ago, an extra share every month, and re-invested the dividends. (without comissions) The worksheet is not 100% accurate, and does not reflect my portfolio, but gives you a good idea of how low your PPS would be.
After listening to you and bar1080 the last few days, I may have to change my investing strategy... Although I still like the majority of my portfolio in the green, while listening to my friends crying.
I recommend a good book, Dave Ramsey's "Financial Peace" A friend gave me a copy 20 years ago, before anybody knew who he was, and didn't even have a publisher. I've bought the book for family and friends. The ones that have followed it aren't complaining, and held steady through the tough times. I hope you can see this worksheet!
AOD on it's website has the facts, I suggest you read the truth like it's written.
Or better yet provide me some facts.
I'm not bashing you, it's impossible that you could be at zero on AOD.
I'll challenge you to prove it's true what you claim.
Like how much you bought, and when you bought, I'll do the math for you.
Well, I never claimed to be sane, but I certainly wouldn't come here to insult anyone. I do not use a human "broker" that convinced me of anything. I do my own investing with TD Ameritrade. If what your saying is correct, perhaps I should change brokers that will show my investment in AOD as a loss, and not send me any more checks!
All investors do not use the same investing approach. I'm not looking for the next Apple or Google, I'm a dividend investor, not a growth investor, although AOD has shares in some great growth companies. I do own some growth funds that haven't performed very well.
AOD is not the only holding I have with a ZERO out of pocket expense using the DRIP and dollar cost averaging technique. You should try it before you start bashing companies and posters!
it's all ROC, the total return is negative 200%. even If you were to get 3X your original shares with DRIP, you would of still lost 33% of your original investment.
No matter how you say you are ahead, it's physically impossible.
There is zero chance of that being true, in fact it's a full on BS lie.
AOD is a suckers bet, no sane person would claim its a winner, especial long term.
Short term you can dodge the bullets they fire off, but long term your gonna get hammered.
You will have to talk to TD Ameritrade about their math, and the checks they send me every month. As far as the share price loss, that's the advantage of monthly dollar cost averaging, a lesson learned from Warren Buffett, Dave Ramsey, and Jim Cramer. I own several etf's, and have never been concerned about the fees. They may affect the PPS, but not the dividends. If a part of the dividends is ROC, and I re-invest them through the DRIP plan, then I've made my point, AOD has returned my capital.
I doubt if AOD will do a RS. If they do, the dividend may also increase. BTW, I'm not young and dumb any more, just older and wiser!
Lortap, I'm guessing the broker who sold him AOD at $20 is now trying to convince him that was actually a smart buy even with shares now at $4.23!
--
Quote: "I just love getting that nickel and a half"
Don't get too used to it, Keyscruiser. The current 5 1/2 cent distribution will probably soon go the way of the 12 cent distribution from 2009 and the 18 cent distribution from 2008.
BTW, calling it a "dividend" isn't proper. The correct term--the one Alpine often uses-- is a "distribution."
http://www.alpinefunds.com/default.asp?P=856340&S=857562
there is ZERO truth to you being at free trading on AOD. Your math is missing the share price loss.
It says right on the AOD website that the ETF fund has lost twice as much as it has made, through ROC and fees.
Being young and all, you'll get wiser when the reverse split comes.
Seeking Alpha is a good source of information. That author made some good points, but I'm not concerned about performance with AOD. I just love getting that nickel and a half per share every month after 5 years of investing!
Ha! You have a good memory about QQQ/QQQQ. The core of my portfolio has been in SPY or Vanguard Total Portfolio Index fund for 20 years.
The math on compounding of AOD is complex. But it hasn't done nearly as well as SPY or any of those other indexes.
If a broker sold you AOD don't trust him if he now says it did well. It's really pretty dreadful.
Read this about AOD. It's about year old but that doesn't change the basic premise.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/316706-4-reasons-to-sell-alpine-total-dynamic-cef
have to run now...
Well, let's see, in 2000 I bought SPY at 147, PPH at 115, DIA @ 107, and QQQ around 20... (I think it had 4 Q's then.)
Still like AOD the best, especially now!
The IPO, if that's when you bought it, was $20, I believe. Yes compounding the distribution monthly would help and it certainly helped that you continued buying as the market (and AOD) tanked in 2009.
Still you would have done much better with a simple S&P 500 index fund bought 5 years ago and compounded each Q during the recession. Regular investing in quality stocks is smart, buying AOD isn't.
Do the math.
I think I paid more than 17 when I first got in. Keep in mind, those dividends were paid monthly, and re-invested in shares, so they increased my number of shares, which increased my dividends, and lowered my cost. It's referred to as compounding, which actually increases the APR. Every month I would purchase more shares at a lower price, lowering my PPS, increasing my dividends each month, and re-investing them.
Find a good ETF, or dividend paying stock, do it faithfully every month, and you will be surprised. I know we shouldn't refer to other stocks on this board, but I have another example. Years ago I bought Phillip Morris (MO) around $48. Using the dollar cost averaging, and dividend re-investing, my cost now is around 3 bucks. Since my original purchase, they have done a 2-1 split, spun off PM and KRFT. Last year KRFT spun off MDZL. So my cost in those 3 companies is zero, I apply the dividends to my original MO cost, re-invest the MO dividends, and by the end of this year, I will own all 4 companies with zero out of pocket investment.
The key to doing this is you need to be young, and have a great job!
AOD was about $18 a share 5 years ago. Its since dropped $13.75 to $4.23 a share. AOD's only paid out about $6 during that 5 years. How do you figure you own the shares free?
Annual Divs
2013: .055 (YTD)
2012: 0.66
2011: 0.66
2010: 1.06
2009: 1.57
2008: 2.16
Source:
http://www.dividendinvestor.com/historical.php?no=2263
I love AOD! I have owned it for 5 years, and yes the divvy's have gone from .18 to .055, but with monthly dollar cost averaging, and a DRIP plan, I own this ETF for $0.00 Yes, ZERO PPS. Now I don't buy any more shares, or re-invest the dividends, and get a big fat check from my broker every month. I hope I got enough last year to pay my taxes and accountant....LOL! And with the "Fiscal Cliff" plan passed by Congress on New Year's Day, the divvy tax is only 20%
Now, I'm concentrating my monthly dollar cost averaging on another stock, (not an ETF) Since it doesn't pay divvys, it looks like a while before I'll be even on that one...LOL!
Alpine Total Dynamic Dividend Fund (NYSE: AOD), Alpine Global Dynamic Dividend Fund (NYSE: AGD) and Alpine Global Premier Properties Fund (NYSE: AWP) Declare Regular Monthly Distributions for January 2013
8:07 PM 12/19/2012 - Business Wire
PURCHASE, N.Y.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 19, 2012-- The Board of Trustees of Alpine Total Dynamic Dividend Fund (NYSE: AOD), Alpine Global Dynamic Dividend Fund (NYSE: AGD) and Alpine Global Premier Properties Fund (NYSE: AWP) announced their same regular monthly distribution for the month of January 2013 as each had paid in the previous month. Announcements of distributions will be communicated monthly going forward for all Alpine closed-end funds.
Alpine Total Dynamic Dividend Fund (AOD) $0.055 per share
Alpine Global Dynamic Dividend Fund (AGD) $0.06 per share
Alpine Global Premier Properties Fund (AWP) $0.05 per share
Dates related to the distribution declaration for all three Funds are as follows:
Ex-Distribution Date/Record Date/Payable Date
January 22, 2013/January 24, 2013/January 31, 2013
These monthly distributions may consist of net investment income, net realized capital gains and / or a return of capital. Final determination of the federal income tax characteristics of distributions paid during calendar year 2013 will be provided on U.S. Form 1099- DIV, which will be mailed to shareholders.
Alpine Global Premier Properties Fund (AWP) has previously adopted a level distribution policy under which AWP anticipates making monthly distributions of $0.05 per share and intends to manage its monthly distributions to include amounts that have otherwise been paid through a year-end special distribution. This amount may be adjusted from time to time depending on current market conditions and the projected performance of the Fund. AWP’s level distribution policy will be subject to regular review by the Board of Trustees. There can be no assurance that the amount of AWP’s monthly distributions will be maintained or that this level distribution policy will not be discontinued or substantially modified in the future.
More information about the Funds is available on www.alpinefunds.com.
Based in Westchester, New York, Alpine Woods Capital Investors, LLC was founded in 1998.
This release contains forward-looking statements based on currently available information. The Funds’ actual results could differ materially from those anticipated due to various risks and uncertainties. Alpine Total Dynamic Dividend Fund, Alpine Global Dynamic Dividend Fund and Alpine Global Premier Properties Fund are closed-end funds and do not continuously offer or redeem shares. The Funds trade in the secondary market and investors wishing to buy or sell shares must place orders through a financial intermediary or broker.
To read about the Funds, access the Annual and Semi-Annual Reports in the Related Documents section of the website or call 1-800-617-7616 to receive a copy of the annual and semi-annual reports by mail. An investor should consider the investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses carefully before investing.
Source: Alpine Woods Capital Investors, LLC
Investors:
Alpine Woods Capital Investors, LLC
Marc Rappaport, 914-251-0880
Actually Fridays's discount was 10.75% which reflects its poor performance.
http://www.cefconnect.com/Details/Summary.aspx?ticker=AOD
Pity those who paid a fat premium for AOD in 2010. Sister fund AGD has lost almost all of its premium lately. I can see many of these trading at 20% discounts before long.
CEFs that pay unsustainable high yields have had a terrible month.
"Alpine Announces a New Team Approach to the Portfolio Management of Its Dynamic Dividend Funds"
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alpine-announces-team-approach-portfolio-230000437.html
it's still on discount by about 6%. Alpine is on Forbes/Lehmann's Income Securites Recommended Buy List.
"The [CEF] Flash Crash You Missed" Not me!
http://www.fool.com/investing/mutual-funds/2012/11/19/the-flash-crash-you-missed-last-week.aspx
"Sixty-six percent of taxable bond funds and 73% of municipal-bond funds trade above their net asset value, versus about 30% a year ago and about 30% in 2006. What changed?"
All that’s different is this: The Federal Reserve is suppressing interest rates. The Fed is driving income-seeking investors to become reckless in their effort to sustain yields of six percent, seven percent or higher. Rather than move into supposedly riskier assets like stocks, they’re buying into some absurd premiums on many closed-end funds, a market that historically has been a poster child for irrational investor behavior."
http://blogs.barrons.com/focusonfunds/2012/10/17/these-rich-yielding-closed-end-funds-trade-at-a-discount/?mod=BOL_qtoverview_barlatest
Economists have long been baffled by CEFs. Many investors (including myself) and most economists subscribe to the "efficient market theory" of stock selection which says that stock prices usually reflect all that is known about the stock's prospects. That is, stock picking is futile. A dartboard or Index fund is just as good as an MBA from Harvard or MIT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis
My own stock money is mostly in Index funds and I've done VERY well for the 20 years I've used that approach. Very few mutual funds or even hedge funds beat the S&P Index when dividends are included.
There are arguments against the EMT: Warren Buffett, for one! How does he usually beat the averages for many decades?
Then there are CEF oddities. Why do some sell at discounts for very long periods? And--more puzzling, why do some sell at premiums, sometimes bizarrely high premiums? Some very, very brainy economists have been unable to solve that that puzzle:
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/shleifer/files/closed_end_mut_funds.pdf
Yes, AOD sells for a (deserved) discount. It's performed terribly since it IPOed in 2007 at $20 a share. Low yield/high quality CEF's like TY and ADX sell at discounts that have sometimes exceeded 25%!
But how does one explain the current premiums on CEFs that are nearly as stinky, such as AGD or the Cornerstone Funds? Read the Seeking Alpha articles in the IBOX and see what some very smart professional analysts and investment hobbyists have to say.
---
Read my posts on this board: I don't like AOD, AGD or the Cornerstone funds. My money is in SPY, QQQ and Diamonds and the like. Overall, those have beaten AOD, AGD, CFP and the other cornerstone CEFs. Ultra high yield CEFs are sucker bets.
Thanks for sharing this article .. It's really an eye opener that how these Corner stone funds r going down with time .. What's your opinion on AOD and AGD .. AOD seems to be trading on discount..
Must read: New article exposes ultra high distribution CEFs and the fools who fall for them. SA piece mostly discusses sister fund AGD, but also AOD.
The similar Cornerstone CEFs deserve a special place in investment hell!
Equity CEFs: The High Cost Of High Distributions, Part II
http://seekingalpha.com/article/932521-equity-cefs-the-high-cost-of-high-distributions-part-ii?source=yahoo
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What is a Closed-End Fund (CEF)? "Despite the name similarities, a closed-end fund has little in common with a conventional mutual fund, which is technically known as an open-end fund. The former raises a prescribed amount of capital only once through an IPO by issuing a fixed number of shares, which are purchased by investors in the closed-end fund as stock. Unlike regular stocks, closed-end fund stock represents an interest in a specialized portfolio of securities that is actively managed by an investment advisor and which typically concentrates on a specific industry, geographic market, or sector. The stock prices of a closed-end fund fluctuate according to market forces (supply and demand) as well as the changing values of the securities in the fund's holdings". read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/closed-endinvestment.asp | About Alpine Total Dynamic Dividend Fund (NYSE- AOD) INVESTMENT OBJECTIVE The Alpine Total Dynamic Dividend Fund's primary investment objective is high current dividend income.The Fund also focuses on long-term growth of capital as its secondary investment objective. INVESTMENT STRATEGY The Fund seeks to achieve these goals by employing a research-driven approach to identifying companies globally with the potential for dividend increases and capital appreciation.The Fund expects to invest at least 80% of its net assets plus amounts borrowed for investment purposes in the equity securities of domestic and foreign companies that pay dividends. The Fund seeks to provide dividend income without regard to whether the dividends qualify for the reduced federal income tax rates applicable to qualified dividends under the Internal Revenue Code. For more info PLEASE see: http://www.alpinecef.com/pdfs/aod-fs.pdf DISCLOSUES AND WARNINGS: Mutual fund investing involves risk. Principal loss is possible. The Fund may include equity-linked securities and various other derivative instruments, which can be illiquid, may disproportionately increase losses, and have a potentially large impact on Fund performance. Leverage may magnify gains or increase losses in the Fund's portfolio. Investing in small and mid-cap stocks involves additional risks such as limited liquidity and greater volatility as compared to large cap stocks. The Fund invests in foreign securities which involve greater volatility and political, economic and currency risks and differences in accounting methods. Diversification does not assure a profit or protect against loss in a declining market. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. The specific market, sector or investment conditions that contribute to a Fund's performance may not be replicated in future periods. Favorable tax treatment of Fund distributions may be adversely affected, changed or repealed by future changes in tax laws. Alpine may not be able to anticipate the level of dividends that companies will pay in any given time frame. Risk of dividend reduction may be high with AOD in this moderator's (bar1080) opinion. I don't own AOD and I recommend not buying it. Material on this page is for informational purposes only. The author is not an investment professional. Consult your investment advisor and company filings for more information. |
SEC Filings:Research Databases:CEF Connect (Nuveen) Closed-Endfunds.com (Closed-End Fund Association)
Alpine Funds:Articles:Top Monthly Dividend-Dogs - List-To-Buy-and-Hold (Seeking Alpha) 2012 Don't Be Fooled by Yield in Closed-End Funds (Barrons) 2011 4-Reasons to Sell Alpine Total Dynamic CEF (Seeking Alpha) 2011 | AOD Chart From 2007 IPO At $20 Per Share
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