Replies to post #8400 on Zeev's Turnips Talk Politics (ZTTP)

[sylvester80]

<Any persons who participate in blowing up a tank are not innocent civilians anymore, they have made themselves into combatants. If the Israeli military's response to the blowing up of a tank is to kill noncombatants, then that is wrong.>

Come on Richard! Innocent civilians means innocent civilians. They have nothing to do with this. Ok, so you are saying is wrong for Israelis to kill innocent civilians yet they continue to do so. Day after day. Now put yourself in a Palestinian's position. Let's say your mom was the pregnant woman who was days away from giving birth to your brother. Instead the Israelis kill her and your 9 month unborn brother. What would you do?

<The Palestinians and the Israelis are at war. Nobody seems to want to admit it, but that's what it really is, IMO. I believe the Palestinians have no realistic hope of victory in this war. Given that, I think the Palestinians should surrender. I think the Palestinians should cease all acts of violence, and if they did that, I think the Israelis would do the same. If the Israelis did not do so, I think they would lose the support of the American people in short order, and they know that.>

Of course they are at war. I already said that. But surrender? Are you kidding me? Why isn't America surrendering to the terrorists? Why didn't we surrender to the British? You have got to be kidding me? This is THEIR LAND! Their HOMES! Their families! Their people! They will fight till the last one like every other freedom fighter before them just like our forefathers did. And they will use every means necessary. Which means EVERY MEANS NECESSARY!

<But if the Palestinians want to continue fighting this futile war, it is their right to do so.>

And that is exactly what they are doing.

[AndrewL]

<The Palestinians and the Israelis are at war. Nobody seems to want to admit it, but that's what it really is, IMO. I believe the Palestinians have no realistic hope of victory in this war. Given that, I think the Palestinians should surrender. I think the Palestinians should cease all acts of violence, and if they did that, I think the Israelis would do the same. If the Israelis did not do so, I think they would lose the support of the American people in short order, and they know that.
But if the Palestinians want to continue fighting this futile war, it is their right to do so.>

I am no great historian, and correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that every time in the recent past a period of ceasefire/moratorium has been achieved between Israel & Palestinians, it is always disrupted by some form of violence coming from the Palestinian side. This suggests that there are those among the Palestinians who simply don't want peace, however few their numbers percentage wise, even though they cannot reasonably win a war against Israel. In my opinion, it is their hatred that compels them, a hatred ingrained over generations, compounded by a leadership that is inept at best, and unable or unwilling to provide positive inspiration and direction towards a nonviolent coexistance at worst. To aspire towards violent "martyrdom" as an ultimate goal in a life briefly lived, seems extremely misplaced and sad.