Replies to post #4406 on Health Discovery Corp (HDVY)

[proteome]

Excellent rebuttal! Point by point.

Thank you for taking the effort to do so.

[s402005]

Exactly.....very good post.....

S420005

[bobafett]

Great rebuttal! you woke up the bulls!

[bob smith]

"BRILLIANT!"

[ehwest]

If you live to 90 almost every man will have some degree of prostate cancer (aka PC). The idea is to try and treat those cases of PC that will kill the man before something else does it.

A high percentage of PC cases grow so slow that something else will kill before PC can. The whole game... PSA, urine test, etc etc is all about trying to determine those cases.

Researchers are trying to find treatments that can stop or slow PC at any stage of development especially at the early or late stage, but prior to causing death. It helps if they can determine if you have it early and then monitor it to a point where, if it is the aggressive type, they can cut out the prostate before it can can get into other parts of the body. Obviously, the quality of life goes way down when they cut a part or all of it out. Even after many biopsies, it is still a guess as to when (if at all) they should start cutting. With the present technology, they still have cases where the prostate was cut out when it wasn't necessary.

The PSA test (gold standard) is very inaccurate in determining who has prostate cancer. Another advantage (besides cheap, simple and safe), is that many times a quick rise in a PSA reading, is a warning that may indicate aggressive cancer and even a slow steady rise may indicate a serious increase in the severity of the cancer.

****** A "replacement" for the PSA test must not only be more accurate at determining PC but also in dermining a change in severity or aggressive behavior. If the replacement test does not deal with those two aspects, doctors must continue to use the "CHEAP" PSA, eventually in conjunction with the approximately 400% more expensive, HDC urine test.

EXPECTATED ADVANTAGES: we all expect the characteristics of the HDC tissue test to be passed onto the urine test. In that event ((1))the urine test will have 90% or better total accuracy, ((2)) will be able to differentiate between Prostate Cancer and an enlarged prostate (aka BPH), the PSA TEST can not do that and if a patient starts to develop BPH (like most senior males) it will causes the patient's PSA reading to jump to the high end of the scale misleading the doctor and a rush to a biopsy and /or removal of the prostate. ((3)) In the same situation, the urine test markers are steady and their readings are not effected by BPH and the many other problems that effect the PSA readings. ((4)) The urine test will register a score or scale based on the 4 detected markers. Over time, if the reading should increase the doctor can only guess because as far as we know those urine test situations have not yet been studied . Eventually they will develop an algorithm to use in evaluating the 4 markers to accurately indicates the severity of cancer and / or any aggressive behavior. There is a good chance the same algorithm that is already used, will already do that.

To sum it up, if the urine picks up markers from the prostate the test will be as good as the tissue test and walk all over the PSA for accuracy of actual cancer; it also will not be mislead by BPH. Eventually, it will be an accurate early tool for relating what the cancer is doing. This will be a major help in determining when to start cutting, radiation, freezing etc. It will also be an accurate early warning if the cancer has returned after treatment or when newer treatment become available that the cancer may have become dormant or receded.

IMO, based on my DD of HDC's tissue test, their urine test, in due time, should take over all aspects of the PSA test. The tissue test is only usable by specialist to make sure that BPH is not causing a false positive PSA reading or biopsy diagnosis. They are the last to adopt any new innovations. For the urine test / screener, the public and the primary care physician is our market.

Revenues will depend on whether HDC can raise money to promote the test or convince the American Cancer Society to help get it rolling.



Additional reading from the Internet.

What is a tumor?

In order to understand tumor grade, it is helpful to know how tumors form. The body is made up of many types of cells. Normally, cells grow and divide to produce new cells in a controlled and orderly manner. Sometimes, however, new cells continue to be produced when they are not needed. As a result, a mass of extra tissue called a tumor may develop. A tumor can be benign (not cancerous) or malignant (cancerous). Cells in malignant tumors are abnormal and divide without control or order. These cancerous cells can invade and damage nearby tissue, and spread to other parts of the body (metastasize).


What is tumor grade?

Tumor grade is a system used to classify cancer cells in terms of how abnormal they look under a microscope and how quickly the tumor is likely to grow and spread. Many factors are considered when determining tumor grade, including the structure and growth pattern of the cells. The specific factors used to determine tumor grade vary with each type of cancer.

Histologic grade, also called differentiation, refers to how much the tumor cells resemble normal cells of the same tissue type. Nuclear grade refers to the size and shape of the nucleus in tumor cells and the percentage of tumor cells that are dividing.

Tumor grade should not be confused with the stage of a cancer. Cancer stage refers to the extent or severity of the cancer, based on factors such as the location of the primary tumor, tumor size, number of tumors, and lymph node involvement (spread of cancer into lymph nodes). (More information about staging is available in the NCI fact sheet Staging: Questions and Answers, which can be found at http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Detection/staging on the Internet.)


How is tumor grade determined?

If a tumor is suspected to be malignant, a doctor removes a sample of tissue or the entire tumor in a procedure called a biopsy. A pathologist (a doctor who identifies diseases by studying cells under a microscope) examines the tissue to determine whether the tumor is benign or malignant. The pathologist can also determine the tumor grade and identify other characteristics of the tumor cells.


What do the different tumor grades signify?

Based on the microscopic appearance of cancer cells, pathologists commonly describe tumor grade by four degrees of severity: Grades 1, 2, 3, and 4. The cells of Grade 1 tumors resemble normal cells, and tend to grow and multiply slowly. Grade 1 tumors are generally considered the least aggressive in behavior.

Conversely, the cells of Grade 3 or Grade 4 tumors do not look like normal cells of the same type. Grade 3 and 4 tumors tend to grow rapidly and spread faster than tumors with a lower grade.

The American Joint Commission on Cancer recommends the following guidelines for grading tumors (1):

Grade
GX Grade cannot be assessed (Undetermined grade)
G1 Well-differentiated (Low grade)
G2 Moderately differentiated (Intermediate grade)
G3 Poorly differentiated (High grade)
G4 Undifferentiated (High grade)


Does the same grading scale apply to all tumors?

Grading systems are different for each type of cancer. For example, pathologists use the Gleason system to describe the degree of differentiation of prostate cancer cells. The Gleason system uses scores ranging from Grade 2 to Grade 10. Lower Gleason scores describe well-differentiated, less aggressive tumors. Higher scores describe poorly differentiated, more aggressive tumors. Other grading systems include the Bloom-Richardson system for breast cancer and the Fuhrman system for kidney cancer.


Does tumor grade affect a patient’s treatment options?

Doctors use tumor grade and many other factors, such as cancer stage, to develop an individual treatment plan for the patient and to predict the patient’s prognosis. Generally, a lower grade indicates a better prognosis (the likely outcome or course of a disease; the chance of recovery or recurrence). However, the importance of tumor grade in planning treatment and estimating a patient’s prognosis is greater for certain types of cancers, such as soft tissue sarcoma, primary brain tumors, lymphomas, and breast and prostate cancer. Patients should speak with their doctor about tumor grade and how it relates to their diagnosis and treatment.

[MSchr12345]

Couple questions of my own for Zenos


You said:
""
Adam uses ‘linguistic hedges’ (LH) throughout this article. A hedge is a qualifier used to mask a limited knowledge and therefore the truth value in an assertion.

>>>HDC's urine-based “test doesn't appear” (LH) to be close (LH) to clinical validation or commercialization<<<

Doesn’t appear? Or is not? To be close? Define ‘close.” A day? A week? A month? The term “clinical validation OR commercialization doesn’t even make sense. “Or” should be “And.” Commercialization is a corollary of validation. “Or” indicates he doesn’t understand the process, OR he is just a sloppy writer. Either way, he’s already lost credibility on both fronts.
""

I'm wondering:
Your response doesn't explain the timeframe either...
Which makes me also wonder how soon ('close/soon' are all relative words)..

You said:
""
>>>This "news" was more than a year old! HDC announced a tissue-based genetic test for prostate cancer ready for commercialization in the fall of 2008 after the completion of a phase III study earlier that year.<<<

Yes, I along with several others just on this board had mentioned that. Is he really getting paid for this drivel?
""

I'm wondering:
Again, you don't explain either.
So if the info is old news, like INO did where they reposed info from a year ago (caused huge volume/price spike), 'soon' could be 5 years or never (or a few days away)..


You said:
""
>>>it has a very good chance of replacing the current PSA test for multiple reasons, including the fact that HDC's urine-based prostate cancer test is non invasive (only requiring a urine sample) while the PSA test requires an invasive blood collection procedure," according to Biomedreports.<<<

HUH? First of all, the speculation is about replacing the PSA as a screening test for prostate cancer. Our test will not replace a test that detects prostate-specific antigens. Our test will detect the genetic evidence for prostate cancer. Why would Adam omit that, and only mention the speculator’s benefit of the test being non-invasive. Non-invasive is NOT a compelling reason for this test.
""

I'm wondering:
Why you used "OUR" a few times. Forget to keep it as "THEIR"
;)

What I noticed:
Adam makes sure that he uses vague words that keep him from getting into trouble. Next, he'll load up once he's pushed the stock down and then hype it until the stock is $4.00/share. Adam seems to also try to contradict alot of things that are found on biomedreports, like timmothysikes did last week to get more publicity for themselves. In this article, Adam seems to really not be able to commit to what he's trying to get us to think. Have the balls and just say what you think, if they're facts, adam!

My take is that while biomedreports used a much stronger tone in 'soon' (but while attempting to cover their a$$- throws in do your on DD, etc), they've clearly committed/lead us to believe soon means soon (while Adam uses big words and throws some "quotes" around, doesn't really say that the biomedreport is wrong (just wants us to think it).

...and finally that Zenos Arrow uses the term 'linguistic hedges', which only a writer/journalist would know that term.

"I could be wrong, but I don't think so" ...Monk (tv show)

[bobafett]

Things that make you go hummmm.....

http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/testmenu/jsp/showTestMenu.jsp?fn=New.html&keyword=&labCode=


Fluorescent in situ hybridization (FISH)


hmmmmm.