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nsomniyak

06/28/09 1:16 AM

#23911 RE: Madclown #23910

I think you are correct. Having some elements of a company outside of bankruptcy does not preclude a share cancellation. What it does is limit the involvement of the bankruptcy court to where the court is needed to provide protection and can have an impact, while leaving healthy operations and those beyond the reach of the court to function without encumbrance.

I believe that the reason that only certain parts of the company are in bankruptcy has to do with which operating units are actually party to the debts that were due, and perhaps some limits to the jurisdictional "reach" of a US bankruptcy court.

Let's say for example there are 3 subsidiaries--A, B and C. A has a debt coming due and a liquidity problem. B is OK, and C is foreign. The bankruptcy would cover subsidiary A and the parent company. The bankruptcy court has to approve significant operational decisions for A, and will intervene to assure that assets are not transferred out of A to other units. B would not be included as there is no reason for the bankruptcy court to oversee its operations, and no reason to constrain those operations or make them more cumbersome. C would not be included as there is nothing a US court could do about it anyway.

In reality, you could have several units with problems (A1, A2, A3...), several more domestic units that are fine (B1, B2, B3...) and multiple foreign subs (C1, C2, C3...).

The publicly traded shares deal with the parent company only, providing an interest in the subs only indirectly through the cash flows they generate for the parent (operationally or via asset sales). Shareholders do NOT have a separate direct interest in each sub, and therefore do not have any direct "share" in units outside of bankruptcy.

If original shares were to be canceled (which, like you, I think unlikely for CEMJQ), followed by issuance of "new" shares, the the owners of the new shares would own the entire company.

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MarketGeometry

06/28/09 3:29 AM

#23916 RE: Madclown #23910

Yes, most important thing about CEMJQ is its book value/liqudation value. Its about 1.66.

Buffett says people trys to understand his investment secret and only secret is I buys stocks trading significantly lower than its book value or intrinsic value. This significantly lower price is nothing but "MArgin of Safety" in value investment circle. So if liqudation value of CEMJQ is 1.66 at todays trading price your margin of safety is 1.44 . Buffett says I buys dollar bills for 50 cents or less and doing this for whole investment career...its nothing complicated but some people cant understand this secret even if you tell them.

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g2nec

06/28/09 8:22 AM

#23918 RE: Madclown #23910

Worst analogy I've seen trying to compare these two opposites.
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oaps222

06/28/09 9:53 AM

#23920 RE: Madclown #23910

madclown,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and DD. It is very informative. Especially, it will be good information for those who believe the common shares won't be cancelled because of the foreign assets not covered in the BK. I believe CEMJQ's positive BV and getting-better monthly operations keep the PPS in a range of 20 to 50 cents now. If/when any asset sale and/or financial arrangements for that lousy $375 M loan due July 15 are announced in a positive way, we will be heading to a dollar land. And moving upward from there in the coming months. By the way, I appreciate for your extra effort to contact Ms. Golden at the U.S. trustee’s office regarding forming a common share holder committee, although the Big Boys (e.g., ICC, Heartland, Trian, FMR, York, Citi, GS, etc.) are not even attempting it yet. It is true effort and contribution for LONGs invested in CEM. It is the value that can make quiet and meaningless of those discussions about a few cents up/down daily/hourly movements and arguing each other.

Have a nice the rest of the weekend, and wish you the best luck with CEM.
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LCLiving

06/28/09 10:01 AM

#23921 RE: Madclown #23910

Madclown, Thanks for that post. Basically just reaffirms my belief that the commons will in fact stay intact. Positive Book value and operating profits seem to be a guarantee that we are going to come out smelling like a rose. While it may not be an iron clad guarantee, seems we are about 99% there with all the other DD such as institutional holders coupled with insiders still holding. I seen a very green future.
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mortgage1

06/28/09 1:13 PM

#23941 RE: Madclown #23910

Great synopsis madclown!