arizona, i read on Professor Niels Harrit's paper for the first time the other day and yeah, it rose a couple of rather dormant goose pimples, a touch disturbing to me, too. Note the use of "conclusively shows", my bold .. in this one, and keep the validity of that, or not, in mind while reading the one below. I'll never forget the 9/11 truther people have shoveled so much garbage, for such a long time. Sheeezzzz, look how it has morphed .. at first NO PLANES HIT BUILDINGS! .. what happened to those theories???? .. how much bs has Alex Jones pushed? .. ROTFLMAO! .. now the latest are the explosions (would expect some) linked to questions of nanothermite. Well, in the beginning i did considerable research on 9/11, not as much as others, but some .. ROTFLMAO! .. guessing that's why i'm on woofer's list of those who have questioned the official version. Then i lost most interest in the whole thing until reading Niel Harrit's paper, and since have spent a little time on it. An hour, or so. Chuckle.
I learned that most, if not all his team, were long-time truthers which i haven't seen mentioned here by any of the long time truthers. How come?
Then i wondered about peer review, lol, have learned, just now, that the peer review system has many problems, it's not perfect or even validating, by a long shot.
I also learned that the so-called peer reviewers of Harrit's paper were ANONYMOUS., which sounded kinda weird to me. That how i got to the peer review business above. Little me thought OH, of what value is anonymous peer review to anyone? ZIP, in my mind. No, it does not take away all from Harrit and his fellow truthers work, but does raise questions about it in me.
Oh!, on the soil samples, well, apparently i think in, here, also, i learned that, initially anyway, they came from Alex Jones people. Haven't reread the interview today.
Anyway, just now i picked up this one up. It looks by one who has done much more research than i have. LOLOL, am putting it in full for the fun of it and to include some comment. For me this is not a total dismissal of Harrit's work, how can i be 100%? on this stuff as others choose to be. It's not me. I think this contribution does shed a little more light for consideration on the worth of Harrit's, nanothermite in 9/11 dust, scientific paper.
A final word on Niels Harrit, nanothermite, 9/11 "truth" and basic common sense Sunday, April 19, 2009 .. all bolds, fuagf ..
Please note the previous two entries before reading this item:
So - I felt the need (after another brave Anonymous "truther" kept me up until 3 am reading a psuedo-scientific paper) to put a final stamp on this topic before moving on. Last night, I was forced to actually delve into Niels Harrit's magical mystery tour and actually address the "facts" that were presented within it once and for all. It unfortunately turns out that despite the hopes of the conspiracy people that the more I "search for the truth" the more I will turn to their side...the more I read about this the LESS convinced I am that there is any merit whatsoever to this study.
Here's the abstract from the report if you don't feel like downloading/reading the entire thing (which I could hardly blame you for):
We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples we have studied of the dust produced by the destruction of the World Trade Center. Examination of four of these samples, collected from separate sites, is reported in this paper. These red/gray chips show marked similarities in all four samples. One sample was collected by a Manhattan resident about ten minutes after the collapse of the second WTC Tower, two the next day, and a fourth about a week later. The properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across which are largely iron oxide, while aluminum is contained in tiny plate-like structures. Separation of components using methyl ethyl ketone demonstrated that elemental aluminum is present. The iron oxide and aluminum are intimately mixed in the red material. When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.
It's hard for me...or anyone with a modicum of common sense to take this report seriously when the items they based this report on were given to them by residents of Lower Manhattan almost SIX YEARS after the Towers fell. These samples were not kept in sterile environments by any stretch of the imagination and were handled by ordinary, non-scientist New Yorkers.
Referring to these samples, the report itself states the following:
The resulting spectrum, shown in Fig. (14), produced the expected peaks for Fe, Si, Al, O, and C. Other peaks included calcium, sul-fur, zinc, chromium and potassium. The occurrence of these elements could be attributed to surface contamination due to the fact that the analysis was performed on the as-collected surface of the red layer. The large Ca and S peaks may be due to contamination with gypsum from the pulverized wall- board material in the buildings.
So by their own admission the scientists are saying that in SIX YEARS that the samples, which were hanging out in lay peoples' homes they MAY have been contaminated. Wow, really?
The paper also never actually says that material in question is nanothermite or even regular thermite...rather that...
These observations reminded us of nano-thermite fabricated at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and elsewhere
So it REMINDED them of a substance that no one aside for 9/11 conspiracy people apparently knows anything about. Can they conclusively say exactly what it is? Well...
We would like to make detailed comparisons of the red chips with known super-thermite composites, along with comparisons of the products following ignition, but there are many forms of this high-tech thermite, and this comparison must wait for a future study.
...not really. You see they can't really get their hands on this nano stuff because we're not sure it really exists. Ok. And further...
All these data suggest that the thermitic material found in the WTC dust is a form of nano-thermite
How incredibly conclusive! I have some suggestions of my own. Well at least they're not jumping to any conclusions right?
We make no at-tempt to specify the particular form of nano-thermite present until more is learned about the red material and especially about the nature of the organic material it contains.
Why bother making an attempt to actually identify this substance, right?
Well that's ok, at least we know for sure it's not paint chips right? Well of course not! Because...
we have shown that the red material contains both elemental aluminum and iron oxide
Oh. I see. There's iron oxide (rust) and aluminum in this mixture. There's no WAY that rust or aluminum could possibly have gotten into the Twin Towers. Except of course that the Twin Towers had tons upon tons of aluminum and every building in history that had iron it also had oxidized iron (rust) in it.
How totally convincing. It's stunning even! How could anyone ignore this incredibly conclusive evidence!
The material they found, that had been contaminated over six years, reminded them of nanothermite or regular thermite but probably nanothermite no really it's almost definitely the nano kind. Or it might be just regular paint. Except that it also has rust and aluminum in it. Which may be a result of the contamination or it may just be because those two substances are present in just about every structure in the history of construction.
What's even better though, is that the inconclusiveness of this paper (and it's really stunningly inconclusive) aside...it doesn't answer any of the following issues I've raised in my previous entries:
-How did they got 10 to 100 tons of this highly dangerous substance into three buildings right under the noses of the very people they were going to kill?
-How did they detonate this substance? Was it a timer? Remote control? Telepathy?
-How did they know exactly where the planes were going to hit in order to plant the explosives in a way that would make it seem that the structure of the building gave way right around the point of impact? Because that's what it looked like to me. Also that's what it looked like to the rest of the world.
-Perhaps most importantly...if this material is as highly explosive and reactive as everyone says it is, why didn't it explode as soon as it came in contact with the burning hot flaming jet fuel that exploded all around it? Why didn't the buildings collapse immediately after the planes hit? Did this substance just decide to wait to react to the fire?
-100 other issues I've brought up about this conspiracy.
Now it's not surprising that this paper doesn't deal with any of this...aside from the fact that the writers all live in a parallel universe where plutonium is available at every corner drugstore
and addressing these issues would force them to come back to reality, this is a scientific study that is meant to address one simple question:
IS THERE NANOTHERMITE IN THE DUST/RUBBLE THAT USED TO BE THE WORLD TRADE CENTER?
And the answer...is a resounding "MAYBE? UHHH AT LEAST WE THINK IT COULD BE."
Like I've said previously, I'm not a scientist. I'm not a structural engineer. I may be completely off-base with my analysis of their methods but the one thing I AM good with is common sense. If you want to ignore the fact that this scam would be impossible to pull off in reality (especially in the reality of a world with internet and a 24/7 TV news cycle) without someone finding out that's one thing. But if you're really going to jump just because some Danish physicist and a bunch of sociologists and psychologists told you they MAY have found something that they still have no proof could actually knock down a building and would be entirely unqualified to comment on even if they did...then God bless you but I can't be bothered to show you why you're wasting your time.
I've already spent enough time on this and while it was kind of fun living in the Wonderland for a week or so,
Israel Independence Day (Yom Ha'atzmaut) is coming up and I should have my hands full with the real issues. I'll still respond to comments when they come up as I'm sure fans of this topic will continue to haunt me the same way that Ben Wedeman and Jon Stewart fans continue to pop up on occasion and send me fun little emails. It's interesting by the way what topics continue to generate traffic months and even years after I post them, but that's a whole different topic entirely.
Anyway, to the 9/11 conspiracy people I say it's been real, it's been nice...but it hasn't been real nice.
I want the last week of my life back...
UPDATE: Two major new developments concerning this topic can be found clicking here. Apparently the editor of the journal this paper was published in, has resigned in protest and the methodology for these experiments was botched in several ways.
Posted by RonMossad at 10:28 AM
Anonymous said...
I stumbled on your site and I am surprised? Frightened? Apalled? By some of your commenters. I applaud your patience in replying to the nonsense they write to you. You are organized and well informed with plenty to back up your arguments.
I applaud you.
April 19, 2009 3:19 PM
RonMossad said...
Thanks Mr./Mrs. Anonymous - let me know if you want me to add you to my mailing list when I update the site. My email is listed in my profile. Oh and tell your friends!
April 19, 2009 10:17 PM
Anonymous said...
You are one ignorant fool. If you took a science class since the third grade, it doesn't show.
April 21, 2009 2:10 AM
RonMossad said...
My, what an excellent rebuttal you've drawn up there!
April 21, 2009 8:46 AM
wardogs said...
Thank you Ron for both your patience and equanimity in dealing with this subject.
I am owner and trainer of a K9 training and deployment company in FL. We have been breeding, training and deploying our purpose bred explosive detection and SAR dogs for over 40 years as well as training K9's for the Military, LE and private industry.
In addition we are a FEMA Incident Response Team/First Responder K9 unit for FEMA Task Force II, Miami.
It was in the latter capacity that we were went to NY on 9/11 as part of the FL Task Force, arriving on scene about 3 1/2 hours after the second tower fell. We went with 4 of our dogs and handlers. Our main function was US&R, live person, (not cadaver search) but all of our dogs are cross trained in several disciplines, including EDD and Incendiary detection. In addition, of the over 300 K9 teams that came from all over the world, there were more than 70 other EDD K9's present on site. This is on top of the 6 full time EDD dogs employed full time at the WTC site, 3 of which I had trained personally. Besides the presence of the normal team that patrolled in shifts 24/7, there had been an ADDITIONAL team of 16 explosives interdiction K9's on duty for several weeks prior to the attack. They were there in response to bomb threats against the center (unrelated) and had only been removed 5 days prior to the attack. 6 of those dogs were also trained by our company.
No explosives or incendiary devices were planted anywhere in that complex. None. Our dogs and the other EDD K9's would have alerted after the fact as well. It's what they are trained for. We staged for the two weeks we were there at the Fresh Kills landfill on Staten Island. This is where much of the structural steel was brought. Despite rumors to the contrary, chain of custody was maintained and virtually all of the steel was cataloged and vital pieces were inspected. Not a single dog ever alerted to the presence of either explosives or incendiary residue.
Not one.
Two K9's were lost at 9/11 and dozens more injured. One was our lead dog and the other was one of our trainees, EDD dog "Sirius".
Sirius was K9 Officer #17 of the Port Authority Police Dept. He had just finished his rounds with his handler, David Lim on the morning of the attack. When the first plan hit David placed him in his Kennel in the basement of Tower II while he investigated what had happened. He was still there when the tower came down.
Our dog "Ali'i" was lost on Sept 13th while attempting to find a way through the tunnels under building 6 into the subway system under the complex. He was carrying a video pack and VA radio and was trapped when 6 suffered a partial collapse from fire. It wasn't until the following Dec that 6 was pulled down and the basement of Tower II was cleared to the point where the body of Sirius was found. They had a full memorial service for him. Ali'i was never found.
I'm not a scientist, but I am an expert on explosives/incendiaries, mine too their use and detection bothbefore andafter detonation. I've testified as an expert witness more than 70 times at court proceedings on explosives detection, K9 training protocol and K9 scent differrention capability.
No explosives or incendiaries were present at the Trade Center on 9/11.
Thermite has never been used in demolition, ever. It has been used occasionally in clean up, but never as an instigator for controlled demolition.
The process of controlled demolition itself is one that takes many weeks to prepare. the buildings undergo extensive preparations, and the demolitions are painstakenly placed in strategic positions. Remember also that 6 full time explosive detection dogs were on 24 hour patrol in shifts, 7 days a week. In addition, until just 5 days before, 16 additional dogs were working the Center in response to bomb threats from two weeks prior to that.
Walls are ripped apart and knocked down, beams are cut, holes are bored, wires are run to detonators. Here is a description of the work needed to take down a much smaller, 33 story building, the J.L. Hudson Department Store in Detroit. It was the largest (by square footage) building to be imploded at the time of 9/11. Keep in mind, this is just the amount of time needed to emplace the explosives, not to prepare the building in the first place:
"...In 24 days, CDI's 12 person loading crew placed 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on 9 levels of the structure. Over 36,000 ft. of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay devices were installed in CDI's implosion initiation system. As the implosion required the detonation of a total of 2,728 lb. of explosives, CDI implemented 36 “primary delays" and an additional 216 “micro-delays" in the implosion initiation sequence in an attempt to keep detonation overpressure to a minimum..."
Before the placement started, more than a month of "prep" was involved that included removal of non load bearing walls, exposure of structural beams and stripping of all internal walls and supports.
I guess no one at the WTC noticed all that work going on.
wardogs
April 22, 2009 6:24 AM
RonMossad said...
You know what's sad wardogs? I read your excellent comment and I say "wow, that's a guy who knows what he's talking about, I guess that's all there is to it" but the average 9/11 "truther" will read your entire post and fixate on the following:
"They were there in response to bomb threats against the center (unrelated) and had only been removed 5 days prior to the attack."
And they'll say "see! That proves the conspiracy! WHY would they be removed only 5 days before 9/11? We must answer these difficult questions! Launch a full investigation!"
Nevermind the fact that there were full-time bomb sniffing dogs.
Nevermind that there was no way they could have detonated this "nano-thermite" stuff.
Nevermind that based on your post it would have taken about three MONTHS (24 days for 33 floors, approximately 90 days for 110 floors) for each of the Twin Towers and an additional month for World Trade Center Seven just to prepare them for demolition.
Nevermind that no one noticed them knocking down walls and essentially gutting the building all around them over seven months' time.
Nevermind that there were full-time, bomb-sniffing dogs at the complex, 24/7 that also never noticed the bombs.
Nevermind your own expertise in the field.
They pulled some of the dogs away from the Towers just FIVE DAYS before the attacks! It's a scandal!
Thank you for your informative post and my condolences for your K-9's...I know how close people are to their K-9 support staff - those dogs are almost like people and in many cases are significantly braver.
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