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aleajactaest

02/19/08 10:11 PM

#4933 RE: goin fishn #4928

goin,
The creation of an orthodoxy around the idea that Christ was the same substance as God, rather than of like substance as Arius had it, had enormous implications.

It turned the church into a machine for the promotion of orthodoxy and the suppression of ideas - adhere to the literal teaching of a man who was a God, rather than loosely follow the example of a God-like man.

So, the first thing you get is the implosion of the civilisation of the Greeks and Romans on the altar of a strict Messianic interpretation of the universe. Why fight for the idea of the unholy and worldly Romanitas, when the world is due to end imminently? And then the dark ages which followed.

A thousand years later, the return of the works of Aristotle and others to Christendom from the Moslem East which had preserved them resulted in an enormous hunger for secular knowledge pushing hard up against this Nicene orthodoxy. But without any release valve. You see people like Copernicus conceding in the introduction to his work on the suncentric universe that what he is offering is simply a mathematical model, not the reality of the heavens. You see braver souls burnt at the stake or castrated.

Finally, we see the invention of the telescope, which was used, at first, as a method of watching armies maneouvre, until someone asked the mathematician and instrument maker, Galileo Galilei, to make one, and he had the idea of pointing it not horizontally towards the horizon and the landscape beneath it, but upwards to the heavens. And when he looked at Jupiter and saw its moons, the supernova event of Western science exploded into the consciousness of philosophers throughout Europe. The Church could only deny what was incontrovertibly so, and absolutely anti-orthodox, by refusing to look. The earth was not the centre of the universe. Look. You cannot miss the moons of Jupiter spinning around their planet as our moon does around the earth.

Lock up Galileo, if you will. But the power of his observation ruptured the religious status quo, and led to the birth of modern secular evidential science.

The council of Nicaea made modern science necessary. Nicaea meant that one day, there would need to be a much bigger, stronger idea to displace it. So in making incontrovertible proof necessary, Nicaea helped create the tension which the telescope and the mind of man finally resolved. And when Galileo wrote his discourse on the two systems of thought, in which he suggested the universe itself draws a more reliable picture of God's handiwork than any words in a book, he ushered in the modern age.

In my - much simplified - view.
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unixguy

02/20/08 3:42 PM

#4956 RE: goin fishn #4928

Wow, what a discussion, not to many people know about Jan Huss and the Hussites. Great discussion. Regards Unix
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aleajactaest

02/20/08 4:10 PM

#4958 RE: goin fishn #4928

By the way, re Church corruption as the impetus for change:

Maybe so, but there was another battle which was equally important: between the Church and the State.

The basic underlying issue concerned the rights of ownership over land. As you probably know, the Church and the Crown were the largest landowners in the Middle Ages. Land was the source of wealth and power, and who controlled it was important. Not only because income is useful. But also because bishops served two masters: the monarch and the Pope. Who did the bishops owe their allegiance to?

The friction shows itself in events like the murder of Thomas Becket, in changes to ecclesiastical processes like the investiture of bishops, in confrontations such as that between the Emperor Henry IV and Pope Gregory VII, with the development of new systems of belief, such as Lutheran and Anglican Protestantism and finally with entirely new ways of corralling Church power, such as the English system of putting its bishops in the House of Lords.

The popular movements were stinted by a lack of power early on. But the church-state dispute was titanic from quite an early stage.