Replies to post #453043 on Tornado Alley (PROG)

[zab]

Once again, you chose to be a libertarian, in America that is your choice. The libertarian party has had the past 50 years to get the support of the American populace to take your place along all of the other political parties.

https://ballotpedia.org/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States

There are many political parties in America. I am sorry you do not have much support all around America, but that is what happens in a FREE society. In some ways be happy you have found this forum; in many other sites you would not even be able to post any information about your libertarian party.

I understand you do not have much representation in American politics. Most Americans just choose some other political party.

Once again some of us actually believe taxes are something we all should pay to support this country called America. Almost all of America supports the Social Security system. After reading what you posted about libertinism, I reject almost all of it. I do not want to even argue with what I find to be quite offensive.

Like our Forefathers who founded this country called America, I believe in a strong FEDERAL Government.

[newmedman]

so you would prefer all of us moving back into adobe huts and going back to horse and buggy transportation after all the roads crumble and bridges collapse? Home school our children by candle light?

Remove law enforcement and allow for a free run on personal properties. The guy with the biggest militia owns the most land like the 14th century feudal lords? Hell, you might as well bring back slavery while you're at it too. Nobody's going to want to work for free and when the technology infrastructure starts to crumble we can go back to communicating on a network of soup cans and strings

Of course you'll still have the good ol' pony express for those long distance letters.

When nasa runs out of funding you can kiss your gps goodbye too, so I hope you guys have a few good cartographers on staff

Sounds like a great plan... if you live on an island in the middle of the Pacific. There's probably one large enough to hold the handful of people who actually support this nonsense. You can then hold US Constitution burning parties every Sunday at sunset. That's only assuming that you'll still be able to tell time without a properly functioning sun dial.

[blackhawks]

So newmedman laid out the consequences of what could be a state named Impractiblestan.

Presumably, after experiencing some of the inevitable deprivation, disease and death caused by 'the replacement of most government-provided services', some of the benighted citizens of your non-participatory, non-democratic republic will say 'whoa, not THAT much liberty'.

Then what? Will you accept the election results when your deadly agenda is up for a vote?

The central philosophical issue is not individuality versus community, but rather consent versus coercion.

No, the central issue is the balance between individuality and community. You posit a state where men ARE angels.

The Federalist Papers is a difficult read; also an essential one to understand why libertarianism has never gained a foothold in any society where ambition exists, In other words, ALL of them.

Federalist No. 51
The Structure of the Government Must Furnish the Proper Checks and Balances Between the Different Departments

From the New York Packet
Friday, February 8, 1788.

Author: Alexander Hamilton or James Madison

To the People of the State of New York:

Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.


Why has libertarianism never been adopted by any large society?

ChatGPT

Libertarianism, as a political philosophy emphasizing minimal government intervention and a strong emphasis on individual liberty and property rights, has not been adopted by any large society as its dominant ideology for several reasons:

Complexity of Governance: Large societies face complex challenges that often require significant government involvement to address. Issues such as infrastructure development, national defense, environmental regulation, and public health can be difficult to manage without a certain level of government intervention and coordination. Libertarians argue for limited government, but some societal problems may be beyond the scope of purely voluntary or market-based solutions.

Historical Context: Societies have historically developed governance structures that reflect their unique histories, cultures, and challenges. These structures often involve a mix of government intervention and private sector activity. Historical events and the evolution of institutions have contributed to the establishment of various forms of government, and these structures tend to persist over time.

Ideological Diversity: Large societies consist of diverse populations with a wide range of political beliefs. While libertarianism has its proponents, it competes with other political ideologies, such as liberalism, conservatism, socialism, and social democracy. These differing ideologies reflect varying perspectives on the role of government, and societies often reach compromises that incorporate elements from multiple ideologies.

Pragmatism and Public Opinion: Public opinion and practical considerations play a significant role in shaping government policies and actions. Even in societies where libertarian principles have some appeal, there may not be sufficient public support to fully implement a libertarian agenda. People often prioritize different values, such as economic security, social welfare, or environmental protection, which may conflict with strict libertarian principles.

Global Interconnectedness: In a globalized world, nations are interconnected economically, politically, and socially. Many international issues require coordination and cooperation among nations. Libertarianism's emphasis on non-interventionism in foreign affairs and free trade can be challenging to implement in a globalized context where international relationships and responsibilities are complex.

Lack of Real-World Examples: Critics of libertarianism argue that there are few, if any, real-world examples of large societies successfully operating under purely libertarian principles. While some smaller communities or experimental projects have adopted libertarian principles to varying degrees, the practical challenges of scaling up such principles to a large society remain untested.

Policy Trade-offs: Policymaking often involves trade-offs between competing values and goals. While libertarianism prioritizes individual liberty and limited government, other ideologies may prioritize social equality, economic stability, or environmental sustainability. The choices made by societies reflect their preferences regarding these trade-offs.

It's worth noting that elements of libertarianism, such as limited government, free markets, and protection of individual rights, can be found in various political systems around the world, but they are usually combined with other ideological principles to create hybrid systems. Large societies tend to adopt a mix of political philosophies and adapt their governance structures to address the complexities and challenges they face.

[fuagf]

livefree_ordie, And in there

"To this end most Libertarians call for the repeal of personal and corporate income taxes; the replacement of most government-provided services, including Social Security and the post office, with private and voluntary arrangements; the repeal of regulations, including minimum wage and gun-control laws; and the dismantling of all regulatory bodies that do not promote freely contracted trade. In supporting an individual’s “right to liberty of speech and action,” the Libertarian Party opposes all forms of censorship, insists on the right to keep and bear firearms, and defends the choice of abortion. Noting that “the initiation of force against others” constitutes a violation of fundamental rights, the Libertarian Party supports the prosecution of criminal violence and fraud but also advocates the repeal of laws against such “victimless” crimes as gambling, drug use, and prostitution."

you have clearly why there will never a Libertarian government in any country in this world. No taxes so only volunteer or voluntarily supported police, fire service, emergency services, military, et al. Without government your postal service would be more expensive and not as good. Without regulation you would not have as clean air or water as you have today. Without minimum wage you would have more poverty and more exploitation of workers. No regulation. When in the last time you saw a person walking nude in your main street. Or fucking in a department store window. Insisting on a right to preserve your gun culture is your right, but bringing that to other places does not appeal to many in most all other countries. And remember many of your Wild West towns did not have legal open carry. Leave your gun at the sheriff's office, thanks. Would you really like to see a Proud Boy with a machine gun .. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/bang-meet-5-best-machine-guns-planet-75816 .. on every street corner.

Lastly, interesting your party "insists" on keeping your gun culture as is yet only "defends the choice of abortion." You must see the crass conservatism in that.