grommitt : re your question 'elder' + 'belkin' rule , here is my reply : <A HREF="http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CLB01233&read=9" target="_blank">http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CLB01233&read=9</A> this is my 'protected member forum' : <A HREF="http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CLB01233&startfrom=1" target="_blank">http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CLB01233&startfrom=1</A> jwg