that makes sense .. doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results .. thanks, i will be asking .. as u know i am trying to arrange my 'learning' so i can understand u folks and vice versa .. don't think it will take long for the lights to go, the rest i'll deal with when i get there .. first things first .. like mattie, i'm still on the sideline (cept for the few bcon shares i picked up this am) .. hard to resist a fire sale .. hey, we're in the green go bcon, c10