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Short it then. Good luck with your investment.
Anyone looking to get out at .03¢?
That's kind of the conclusion I came to aswell. That'd mean filings are potentially right around the corner and we just need the appeal to wrap up. Exciting times that's for sure.
I think I'm going to print off Attis' first on time filing and Greenshifts first filing in three years, frame them, and put them on my wall as a giant middle finger to everyone who said it would never happen. I'm looking forward to walking by those everyday.
Good luck everybody.
Is it possibly a part of restructuring? Sounds like they just opened up a deep rabbit hole to me and I refuse to go down that path without more information. Gonna lock up my shares and sit on them I think. Hopefully they don't disappear.
Didn't they play a major role in Greenshift's downfall?
VIC Write Up Dated 06/26/19 for anyone interested. Good luck everybody.
https://www.valueinvestorsclub.com/idea/LARGO_RESOURCES/5766898219
There are so many good things going on here I managed to get myself excited. The last time that happened I bought Attis at 1.75. Two completely different investments but the same gut feeling. Since I'm planning on buying at .80, you should probably wait for it drop to .30. That's how I prefer to start all my long-term investments, down 70%. Thanks for the response and good luck out there :)
Are you still accumulating this one?
Anyone have a list of Greenshift Partners?
If it makes you feel better Harry, I agree with you about 75%. Maybe that's KK's gift this year. Transparency to shareholders. A man can dream. Happy Holidays my friend.
Thanks for the history lesson.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160128006279/en/FLUX-Carbon-Completes-Acquisition
Ah. I always thought GreenShift was the parent company of Flux Carbon. Maybe that assumptions wrong.
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2018/05/31/1514744/0/en/Attis-Industries-Acquires-Clean-Technology-Licensing-Business.html
This is the way I interpreted it.
Attis paid $28m for intellectual property from GERS. The IP was then placed into the Flux Carbon LLC (JVCo) and GERS paid off debt.
So if we assume Flux Carbon LLC (JVco) is its own independent entity, then Attis owns 80% of the earnings coming from Flux Carbon LLC (JVCo) and GreenShift owns 20%.
Other assets (like Advanced Lignin Biocomposits and Genarex FD LLC) that were acquired by Attis were placed into the JVCo aswell.
Total revenues at the times of acquisitions for JVCo added up to around $14,000,000 I believe. The Patent IP acquired from GreenShift was responsible for around half of those revenues and had a gross margin of 70%.
Anyone interpret the JVCo relationship different?
"Not a real downside so far, but I would like to know if this buy is a normal buy, or some kind of reward."
I haven't read about any potential rewards throughout their agreements. Maybe I missed something, but I'm comfortable assuming they were purchased on the open market until the company states otherwise.
"Also does it mean more dilution for them, of are these shares that already have been available."
Answers to the dilution questions come when filings are released. IR still states 4.31m shares outstanding, but I'm sure it's higher than that. Cosman has stated he's ok with dilution as long as the terms are skewed in Attis' favor. So I don't believe he'd dilute for pennies on the dollar. Speculation though. I'll just wait for the filings to be released to give the rest of my opinions on dilution. I'm sure they will have changed at that point.
"And what does it mean for the previous deal of Attis buying GERS. Like I've said before, it seems strange that a company is 'bought' for 80% by another company and then buys a percentage of the company that buy them. It seems like a circle to me."
Did Attis technically buy into GERS or did they buy a majority ownership in a joint venture with GERS? From my recollection, Attis doesn't own any shares in GERS, just Flux Carbon. Maybe I missed that purchase. Again, wouldn't surprise if I did. If I did, I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to that purchase. Lots of information to take in here.
It isn't the same as a buyback.
Agreed, but I'd rather have the shares locked up by GreenShift than some other investor with a shakey hand. Decreases supply (assuming open market purchase) and increases demand. Worst case scenario, Greenshift sells the shares and pays down debt or completes restructuring. I'm ok with those outcomes too.
Lots of unknowns here my friend. Lots of certainties aswell, like a 10-year off-take agreement and CLIA and CMS certification. Any valuation under $20m doesn't do the company justice, KK knows that. If all the purchase was was an investment in Attis then he's made it an oportun time. I'm just hoping they don't make the same dilution mistakes GERS has.
Sorry for the long winded reply. These posts help me get my thoughts in order and allow for feedback. It's kinda nice.
KK is equivalent to GERS in my view.
This is good news for GERS shareholders if Attis becomes current.
KK would benefit greatly aswell with his ownership of GERS.
Shareholders of Attis benefit because more shares are locked up for the long-term.
Win, win, win. (If Attis ever files)
If there's flaws in this logic, please point them out. I'm always trying to learn. I don't see any downside to the purchase.
Attis would be a great investment if they'd update their filings and show some of those revenues they've been claiming. Healthcare alone should be around $12m with margins between 18 and 25%. Why would the general market know that though. There's no financials. I'm sure KK is just a savy investor looking for the capital gain like you stated.
I'm game.
What is everyone's opinion on what the company should do if this appeal is lost?
Just trying to find what the common consensus is among you long-termers.
I'd argue no news. But it'd be nice to know what's left on the restructuring and financing list since the Attis deal didn't accomplish that. Was that not the main goal of the deal? To pay off lenders, get restructuring completed, and bring things up to date?... The only winner here so far has been Attis. They made out like a bandit. Just kinda waiting to see if Greenshift shareholders benefited in any way. Looks like they're still stuck in the same situation but with fewer assets to their name. Meanwhile, Attis picked up cash flow producing assets at a discounted price. Kinda sucks tbh. As an investor in both, I'd like to know what happened to the money. Because now Attis is stuck not filing as well. So much secrecy here. Definitely my two most entertaining investments. Profitable, not so much. But hey, maybe one day we'll get there :)
Read it Carefully
Effective May 25, 2018, Attis and GreenShift entered into a Securities Purchase Agreement and related transaction documents pursuant to which Attis acquired 80% of the membership interest of JVCo. and $10,000,000 of GreenShift’s subordinate secured debt, in exchange for an earn-out based purchase price equal to the greater of $18,000,000. The agreements additionally call for Attis to pay $200,000 over sixty days, and for GreenShift to pay certain working capital surplus equal to about $200,000 to JVCo. An initial payment against the SPA purchase price was paid at Closing in the form of 2,000,000 restricted shares of Attis’s common stock and 180,000 shares of Attis’s Series G Stock. GreenShift is required to use the first proceeds received upon sale of the shares to pay or refinance its senior secured debt. In connection with closing under the SPA, 100% of the issued and outstanding equity of Advanced Lignin Biocomposites LLC and 49% of the issued and outstanding equity of Genarex FD LLC was transferred to JVCo.
The SPA transaction documents also include an Amended and Restated Limited Liability Attis Operating Agreement and a Management under which GreenShift and CleanTech have in essence ‘outsourced’ its operations to JVCo, which the parties have agreed to fully capitalize to meet a number of specific objectives, including servicing the continuing and future needs of licensees, investing in growth with the parties’ combined intellectual properties, protecting GreenShift’s intellectual properties, and supporting all pending and future litigation for infringement and related matters. JVCo agreements further require that no distributions shall be paid by the Company prior to the date on which GreenShift’s senior secured lender is fully paid.
On and subject to the terms and conditions of the SPA and related transaction documents, at the Closing, GreenShift issued to Attis a subordinate secured convertible debenture in the original principal amount of $10,000,000. Commencing November 22, 2018, the Debenture shall be convertible into GreenShift’s common stock at the sole and exclusive option of the holder in one or more installments up to 9.9% of the GreenShift’s issued and outstanding common stock at the time of conversion (when taken with any other shares of GreenShift common stock held by the holder at the time of conversion). The Debenture converts into GreenShift common stock at the greater of $0.10 per share or 100% of the lowest closing market price per share for the GreenShift common stock for the thirty Trading Days preceding conversion. The Debenture shall accrue interest at the lesser of 2% or the minimum allowable rate under applicable law and shall be waived if the GreenShift Debenture is converted or otherwise fully paid on or before June 30, 2028. The Debenture shall be exclusively paid in the form of GreenShift common stock, provided, however, that the principal balance due under the Debenture shall be reduced on a dollar for dollar basis in an amount equal to any distributions paid as provided for in the SPA and Company Agreements.
The following table summarizes the estimated fair value of the JVCo assets acquired at the date of acquisition:
Long-Term Note Receivable 10,000,000
Intangible Intellectual Property 18,000,000
Purchase Price $28,000,000
JVCo is subject to a first priority lien granted in favor of Candent Corporation (“Candent”) on February 18, 2015, under a guaranty agreement executed by JVCo in connection with the issuance by JVCo’s former parent company, EXO Opportunity Fund LLC (“EXO”) of a $15 million senior secured loan to Candent on the same date. Effective May 25, 2018, on and subject to applicable agreements, Candent agreed to release the foregoing first priority security interest and lien upon satisfaction by JVCo’s parent company, Attis, and its affiliates of certain conditions under the SPA.
The joint venture also holds various investments in early-stage technology development companies, and the rights to many proprietary, patented, and patent-pending technologies, including (i) methods for real-time data acquisition, verification, and analytics in renewable energy applications, (ii) methods of using blockchain to manage commodity risk in emerging carbon and agricultural markets, (iii) low temperature catalysis of carbon dioxide into renewable fuels, (iv) power production from low temperature thermal emissions, and (v) methods to increase the efficiency and profitability of corn ethanol production facilities by intercepting and processing corn ethanol coproducts into value-added renewable offsets for fossil fuel-derived products.
I contacted IR, no response yet. I'll let you know if I hear anything back. Not expecting to, but we'll see.
I hate to agree with you, but I do. I also think the world is telling me I'm getting fat and need to workout. I'm just going to take this as a sign and start doing it. Hopefully all is well at the company.
Anyone having issues with the Attisind.com page?
Is it just me or is Attisind.com loading wrong?
Wouldn't it be more like $27m/year?
I'll just remind everyone of what Attis has claimed:
(I'd say this is relevant to Greenshift because the two are tied at the hip through JVCo and litigation.)
Estimated Financing
Fulton Ethanol Plant
$30m
Barnesville Refinery
$45m
Wausau Pilot Biorefinery
$2.5m
Flux Carbon LLC Joint Venture
$28m
Advanced Lignin Biocomposites LLC
$2.3m
DxT Medical
$462,000
Verifi Resource Group, Integrity Lab Solutions, Wellnes Benefits LLC
$4m
Total Company Stated Financing
Roughly $100m
Estimated Revenues
Fulton Revenue
Stated Low End - $133,095,000
Median - $146,995,000
Stated High End - $160,895,000
After Upgrade - 181,745,000
Barnesville Revenue
$35,000,000
Advanced Lignin Biocomposites Revenue
$7,000,000
Estimated Healthcare Revenue
$15,000,000
Total Revenues
Low-End Estimate - $193m
Median Estimate - $207m
High-End Estimate - $220m
While these figures are not exact (because there are no up to date financial statements to back them up), if you read through "everything" the company has posted over the past 4 years (financial statements included), and glue their statements together, it is what you will find. These are the potential revenues the company could be posting within the next two years.
If their main goal has been to create shareholder value, the last 5 years (21% of my life) of share depreciation does that claim no favors. BOOK VALUE: (probably) in excess of $40m, MARKET CAPITALIZATION: $1.5m, Multiple Partnerships and Revenue Streams. There's no reason, other than missing financials, this company should be trading for anything less than $3.00 per share. Why are you making shareholders suffer unnecessarily? Update your financials. You've had plenty of time.
My only goal in asking for the financial statements to be released for both companies is to ascertain the fair value of the common shares that I currently own. If a physical copy of the withheld statements can be obtained, I will gladly provide any personal information that is required to obtain them. If it is not possible to obtain these documents that I believe as a shareholder I am entitled to, I simply ask that a well documented and thorough explanation is given as to why that is the case. A well-typed out response is amazing but material evidence is what I am looking for. If it is truly detrimental to both company and shareholders to release said information, then give your shareholders a bona fide reason to believe that. It's not what you know, it's what you can prove. Cite your sources.
Shareholders' Rights to Financial Information
Shareholders' rights to financial information are not limited by common law or inspection statute limits. The shareholder is, however, required to exercise good faith when requesting financial information. (I simply want to know the fair value of my shares, nothing more.) The shareholder must also have a proper purpose for the request. When a shareholder exercises his or her inspection rights, it's a requirement that the reason for the request is presented in writing. When the reason for the request is considered proper, the information rights of the shareholder include every corporate record related to the purpose.
What the Term "Proper Request" Means
A proper purpose is the force behind a request for financial information that centers around protecting the shareholder's interest. An improper purpose is a reason that centers around damaging the corporation itself or the other shareholders in the corporation.(I have no intent or motivation to bring harm to either company. I have hard-earned money in both companies and would simply like to know what I own. If that requires me signing an NDA, so be it. I just want to know what I "currently" own.)
The statutory requirement that a shareholder has to state a proper purpose when requesting corporate financial records:
-Doesn't mean that the shareholder has to express every reason for wanting the information
-Doesn't mean that the stated purpose is the only purpose for wanting the information
-Doesn't mean that there isn't also an improper purpose behind the request
Proper Requests
A corporation doesn't have to grant the request for financial information. If the request isn't proper, the corporation can easily resist sharing the information. This increases the importance of stating proper purposes when making a request for financial information. Some reasons that are considered proper in all situations include:
-To ascertain share value
-To determine if management is engaging in wrongdoing
-To get shareholder information for the purpose of communication with others who hold stock in the company
Ascertaining Share Value
One of the more common reasons for shareholders to request corporate financial records is to check out the financial well-being of the company. This kind of request is proper because it is directly connected to what the shareholder receives from his or her investment in the company. Historically, courts have upheld ascertaining value as related to a shareholder's ownership in the company as a proper, legitimate reason to request the company's financial information.
Investigation of Management Wrongdoing
Common law states that the investigation of corporate wrongdoing is a proper reason for a shareholder to ask for a company's financial information. It is also considered a proper request when the shareholder has begun litigation against a corporation's directors or the corporation itself.
Enabling Communication With Other Shareholders
If a shareholder has a grievance or concern about how the corporation is being managed, seeking contact information for other shareholders is considered a proper purpose for requesting information from the company. Under the law, shareholders have the right to discuss issues that are of common interest, so requesting the names and addresses of other stockholders for the purpose of communication is acceptable. Courts typically favor stock registry requests over many other types of record requests.
When the Corporation Doesn't Want to Share Information
The one issue that comes into dispute when these cases go to court is whether the shareholder who is the plaintiff has a proper purpose. The statute that allows shareholders to inspect corporate documents also gives corporations the right to argue that the shareholder isn't acting in good faith and doesn't have a proper purpose for the record request. The corporation can argue that the request is improper because it is not related to shareholder status. The corporation can also argue that releasing the information would harm the corporation's interests.
(If this is true and financial statements cannot be produced without causing harm to both shareholders and company, point me to the SEC documentation, or other documentation, that proves it.)
Corporate Information That Shareholders Can Request
A shareholder can only request information for the specific reasons that relate to his or her position as a shareholder. (Again, I simply want to be able to reach a perceived fair value on my investment.) Personal interests that are not related to owning shares in a corporation are not considered proper, and courts can even deem those requests harmful or wrongful to the corporation. Some specific items that shareholders can ask a company to share include:
-Lists of shareholders and the company's stock ledger
-Operational documents such as meeting minutes and records of shares -being transferred
-The financial statements classified as books and records of account
All basic financial records are included in the books and records of account category. One statement that does not require a purpose is the annual financial statement. This document must be mailed to the shareholders' homes.
Source Information
https://www.upcounsel.com/shareholders-rights-to-financial-information
Thank you!
Small Two Cents Post (Apologies in advance for my strong viewpoints. I sincerely hope open discussion is welcomed here and my goal here is not to offend anyone. They are simply my thoughts and feedback is always beneficial.)
I wanted to mention that as well. I think it’s fair to assume at this point that filings for both companies are contingent on an appeal victory. It’s either victory for Greenshift right now or financial statement limbo for the next 5 to 10 years (for both GERS & ATIS). The Supreme Court is not going to accept a new appeal once this one comes to a close (assuming we lose). That will take years. If we are not victorious now, the only thing I see in the future is more shareholder suffering if management decides to continue to beat the dead horse that is subject to litigation. Years of suffering to be precise and for both groups of shareholders. Destroying one company's shareholders can be classified as a mistake, but now there are two groups of shareholders being destroyed. Come on now, that's unnecessary and insane. That's also a pattern. Fool me once and Fool me twice. If multiple judges come to the same conclusion, you've lost. Take existing operations and start returning value to shareholders. It's your moral obligation at that point. Pursue patent litigation as a secondary project. If won, it will be an added bonus at some point in the future.
If we win the current appeal, congratulations. I will be ecstatic for everyone that has lost money both here and on Attis and I would gladly eat my shorts in front of all of you (Assuming I can salt and pepper. Maybe butter them too. I really don't know if I'd be able to get them down). All wrongs will have been mended. That would be huge. If we lose this appeal, rip the band-aid off, face reality and start mending what has been taken. I know there are two functional, well-run businesses here, with a more than capable management team. Make something of them. Start giving back to your shareholders that have lost everything or offer to buyback the shares at a reasonable premium so that people can move on. Making people suffer 10 more years of what they have already been through for a non-guaranteed and highly unlikely (at that point) victory is a punishment no one deserves. People have given both companies their hard-earned money in hopes of a promised future return. One that can be, but has not been delivered.
Business is not rocket science. Stop trying to make it seem that way. You either have cash flows or you do not. You either return the value you have created to your shareholders (through capital gains or dividends) or you buy them out. You keep your investors informed on the financial status of what they own at all times, whether it's detrimental to the share price or not. Hiding financials only makes you look guilty, even if you're not.
If we lose, move on or allow investors to leave. At the very least, give investors an update on operations. Quit leaving them in the dark for extended periods of time and expecting them to be ok with that. They have a right to know things, you sold the shares to them. Withholding information from investors is a choice. It's premeditated and deserves an above-average explanation. One that has not been given (by either company).
Where talking about two companies here that could be, or are (who knows), and claim to be leaders in their respective fields and you're telling me that they're trading for literal pennies on the dollar of book value. If that's not classified as management failure, does the world even exist?
(That concludes this thought session. I don't believe anyone here is bad. Misguided, yeah maybe, bad, no. I wish you all the best here. My condolences to all that have suffered. Here's to hoping that this appeal will end that and for a brighter future. Good luck everybody.)
"We’re one of the largest, most advanced ethanol producers in the United States." Prove it
Mr. Kreisler,
Is there an established timeframe for when both Greenshift and Attis' financials will be filed? As a longtime investor in both Greenshift and Meridan/Attis, that is my one and only concern.
I'd like a clearer picture of what I currently "own."
Get it to us when you can. While haste is important to some people, I'd rather have the information at some point than not at all. Thank you for even offering.
Will someone who is planning on being in the room on the 3rd do a full write up?
Have you found anything noteworthy relating to the Barnesville biorefinery?
Jeez you're fast. Was thinking about posting this. Last medical hire I saw took place back in September. The company is alive and well <3 Now hopefully they're highly profitable. That might be asking a lot though. They must be cracking down Accounting standards too because they a hired an SEC reporting director a while back and now they're looking for a plant operator which would deal with documenting financials at Fulton. I don't normally jump with joy but I seriously think if you're sitting on Attis shares you're not going to regret it.
I know it's not Attis' plant, but if you've ever wondered what a 50m gallon facility looks like and you can't make it out to Fulton, this is a very solid tour of one. Good luck everybody.
I wouldn't pass that judgement yet.
Schwab
I'd be buying if I didn't have strict rules in place. Cause what's society without it's rules? And why deviate when those rules make you lots of money? Hopefully we see above 3 again with this recent pump. If it's not immediately followed by an earnings release I'm out at $3 and back in at $1. I'm calling it a year after that because it was a very very successful one and my soul is tired. Good luck my friend.
Have they stated their expected profitability on ethanol anywhere or has anyone done the math based on company claims/patent claims? Might make that my next project when free time opens up, assuming there's no information out there. Thanks!
If you're bored and have some free time.