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It'll be interesting to watch gold's trading action near 1640. This is where some figured short covering would begin. I'm wondering if (selling) support/manipulation will be able to keep the price below 1640 much longer ?
Stinky pinky, the sad story of economic shenanigans with its shocker ending seems to be nearing the end of a chapter and the beginning of the next chapter.
Only the ultra rich - Central Bankers, Soros , Rothschild, etc. (including some on this forum : ))- have smelled the smoke and exited
the fiat currency building in favor of precious metals.
A couple of analysts have recently offered when gold breaches 1640 short covering would begin an upward price run that would gain momentum. In fact, gold bounced off 1641 earlier today and is consolidating immediately below 1640.
The general idea is that a gold run-up will take its little brother silver along for the ride. Several including Jim Rogers say silver has more room to run and will yield a much better % return than gold.
We've seen several false breakouts during this near 1 1/2 year correction/consolidation in gold&silver prices. Maybe this week's price action will be the beginning of the real McCoy.
Toofuzzy, 'what would happen if the U.S. actually paid off its debt and didn't run a trade deficit ?' Unless there's a
parallel universe with different dynamics than the one we're living in what you've suggested is impossible in the short (historical) term. Seriously, based on what I think? I know it would be impossible to achieve debt free & trade surplus status in the next decade or or maybe two. However, from what I've read it's not unreasonable to think the U.S. can achieve oil independence within the next decade or two IF the political establishment united behind any number of reasonable plans. Other things now considered SOP can change for the better which would help us greatly in achieving a significantly better balance of trade.
All is not lost. It's possible the U.S. can regroup and do well in a longer term view of history.
White Cobra, I did use the word 'better' suggesting that would be the end result of a new world currency restructure. You're right. It might not be better for the USA. And it certainly might not be as good as some of the past World Reserve Currency systems.
In the past the U.S. was economically the strongest, most solvent country in the world and able to almost dictate to the rest of the world how currency for international trade would be done. Unfortunately this is no longer true. It remains to be seen how the U.S. will fair when the next World's Currency system is in place.
White Cobra, as you know, the economies of different countries are so interconnected today they operate (pretty much) as a whole and the laws of economic checks and balances are alive and well functioning to bring balance within the whole. Perfect balance is never attained but some sort of functioning scheme is reached and used for a period of years before it becomes too perverted and is discorded for a better, fairer one. We're witnessing the transition to another scheme now and I hope we're on the right side of opportunity : )
In my opinion those mainly responsible (Western Big Banks & Western politicians) for the demise of the old scheme have been buying time - often in an illegal way - in an effort to retain as much wealth as possible.
The 'other' foreign economies/countries which are a part of the whole are now equipping themselves to replace the present scheme/system and it's going to take more time than some of us would like.
White Cobra, it's a delimma alright. The silver crooks/manipulators
seem to have our government's blessing & backing (via their proxie
bank JP Morgan Chase & others - the 800 lb. gorilla. The battles seeking a fair value for gold&silver haven't been fair taking into account the overwhelming resources of those wanting a cap on gold&silver prices.
THIS is the reason I've mentioned the coming foreign pressure - at some point being larger & more powerfull than our 800 lb. gorilla.
Isn't it a hoot...waiting for foreigners to correct a problem seemingly created by our government & its proxies.
SilverEagle, exactly my feelings too. Most of me wants more time to accumulate yet I'd like to see some life in the metal's price. lol
White Cobra, yep the number of messages has tapered off as posters wait for fundamental economics to 'age' more (like a family of buzzards sitting on a roadside fence biding their time while road-kill ripens). Eventually economic things will smell so bad it'll spawn a crazed rush to buy gold&silver. Until then fundamental economic meters will show dials moving further into the DANGER area while our Provda like news media continues mouthing skewed lipstick-on-a-sow government statistics.
One of government's aims is not to alarm the frog in the pot of water by raising the temperature too fast.
Stinky pinkie, well..those of us who've followed Ted Butler's articles know that our government watchdogs are actually controled by Big Banking and as such we shouldn't expect Big Banking to convict itself of any major wrong doing. That's where we're at today - our government controled agencies no longer have the public's best interest as # 1 priority.
As time passes I'm thinking the key to really big increases in gold&silver values will come from further U.S. events (currency printing) and international events negatively impacting the U.S. Dollar's value as the World's Reserve Currency (foreign countries establishing trade agreements using gold or/and their own currencies) rather than the Dollar.
However, I'm not counting out occasional blips up & down based on
less important events.
Toofuzzy, >>>>Like the current monetary sustem maybe we should throw the bunch out and just start all over<<<<
Good idea. The 'bunch' has evolved into so many different personal and political groups & factions within each polital group with so many different goals other than doing what's best for the USA. They are a proven bunch of failures. It doesn't take a genius to see the bunch - Republicans and Democratics have bankrupted the greatest country the world has ever known in just 100 short years. Amazing :(
White Cobra, nice to hear your work paid off good. (Wish I had the time and acumen you seem to have in finding unrecognized treasure :).
On an upbeat note, on King World News Peter Schiff suggests/says gold has based and started a sustained upward move. If he's correct I'm assuming gold will provide a good draft to pull silver along with it.
SilverEagle, when I see a government entity announcing a probe of any part of the financial industry it conjures up images of a few small players being offered up for the crimes of their bosses.
The CFTC is a joke and without the fear of God behind a change it'll never enforce the law like it should.
SilverEagle, as you know, everyone here gets to put their 2 bits in the pot and if we share information and personal logic a piece of it might? help someone else. I especially like charts but have learned
those manipulating silver have skewed traditional chart interpretation to the point of being useless. The manipulators have and still are in control of silver pricing - maybe not totally but enough to fairly well service their needs.
Studying the manipulators - and there are evidently several types with different goals - might provide information with which to create future silve price scenarios one can use to successfully trade silver. The short of it is if you want to catch a crook think like a crook. Be carefull : )
SilverEagle, trying to understand the manipulator's MO has lots of merit and might be the best way of timing silver buys...and sells.
I really like charts for identifying areas re. truning points. However, with silver pricing being firmly controled in the short term (14 months) by the manipulators technical short term chart interpretation has been stood on its ear. But I believe long term technical charting of silver will benefit seasoned chartists as long term trends have always had their way.
My guess is that the manipulators aren't out of ammo YET and they're
going to shake the tree at least once or twice more.
Blue Horseshoe, as for accumulating silver I like it here ($27) just great ! My chronic lack of cash plus a greed factor causes me to dream of nailing the bottom. lol I've probably got a better chance winning the Lottery.
What I'm curious about is THE low price before silver turns up.
Will the manipulators try an all-out guns blazing effort to really tank silver or will they simply have spent their mojo and drift out of the picture. These are general scenarios with what actually happens being some combination of the two but with one prevailing.
Any guesses ?
Stinky pinky, guess we'll see how accurate the London Trader's estimate is. This manipulation thing seems like a big game of chess with each move producing a counter move to stay out of 'check'.
xjag, the Bill Murphy interview reinforces what several seasoned
analysts are saying - that silver&gold prices are in a bottoming
area and near a break to the upside.
Thanks for posting the interview link.
Stinky ' , thanks for the Rick Rule repost. I was reading Rule back when silver was $ 45. oz on the way to near $50 and he was saying he
had just sold most of his silver. Being the greedy idiot I hoped it would run substantially higher. Could of should of took the hint from perhaps the best of the precious metals analysts and sold.
Stinky pinky, interesting article. Apparently the British government
is gettting 160 million .ozs of silver from this find and possibly another 400 million ozs from a second sunken ship. This brings up interesting possible scenarios. IF the total of 200 million ozs is used to continue the price suppression of silver it could stunt silver's price for a while longer.
The three biggest factors in future silver pricing are(1) production (2)industrial demand, (3)investor physical silver demand. The Silver Institute shows world mining production in 2011 at 761.6 million 0zs. with total industrial demand at 1,040.6 Ozs.
This is a 279 million oz shortfall between industrial demand and mining production. So...as Ted Butler, Eric Sprott and others have pointed out *If investor demand for physical silver increased dramatically it would send its price into orbit*.
Stinky pinky, agreed...sooner or later a tipping point will be reached in favor of a sustained price increase in silver&gold.
We need to remember the public at large hasn't an inkling their economic world could quickly crumble (once certain things they've no knowledge of pass this tipping point). As Doug Casey points out We are in the eye of a hurricane and when the eye moves past us the ensuing storm will be disasterous.
Psychologically the calm in this storm center tends to be tedious and demorlizing for some of us silver/gold accumulators who are short on patience : )) However, **in the very long run** the eye of this storm will likely be remembered as a 'gift'/one of the greatest investment opportunities in history.
hotrod34racer, Goldman kmows the Fed is likely om its way to serverly
reducing or ending the interest it's been paying the big banks thus forcing them to get off their ass and begin loaning the free money received from the Fed.
Until now big banks have seen no need to risk loaning money into a sinking economy. It's the Fed's way of getting some of the fiat dollars into circulation instead of another big QE.
Got more to say on this later.
Bernanke sounded so wise and in control this morning as he offered The most effective way that the congress could help to support the economy right now would be to work to address the nation's fiscal challenges in a way that takes in to account both the need for long run sustainability and the fragility of the recovery" ROTFLMAO
Bernanke can't possibly think the very group of politicians that ran up a $ 15 BILLION taxpayer debt in order to basically sustain their individual tenures in office will have either the moral fortitude or genius to extricate U.S. citizens from this deb without loosing
the traditional American-Way-of-Life.
Bert', nice board...thanks for the invite.
What's really scary
is that all the major governments of the world are racing headlong toward economic bankruptcy with its subsequent poverty. And in past times wars have conveniently been started to divert citizens' anger re. their poverty away from their government. It has been done so often its expected. The U.S. with the strongest military on Earth has no qualms about using 'gunboat diplomacy' as an economic tool. (We've been engaged in it for quite some time). Scary as H it is !
So how does the above figure into the wisdom of stacking gold & silver ? My guess is that in times of economic chaos silver & gold
will either be the basis for whatever currencies being used or will become the currency.
Yep, I'm a moderately scared old Redneck.
jt6455, very well stated. Once panic regarding the worthlessness of fiat currency reaches a high enough level a VAT won't be considered by silver buyers.
Stinky pinky, thanks for clarifying my sorry, sort of attempt to describe the Fed's unsavory acts as sordid rather than sorted. : )
Anyhow, I often wonder if when the Fed does some of the things its
done whether it was to accommodate our government's wishes or itself...or both.
An accurate & complete audit of the Federal Reserve would be the scariest thing on Planet Earth. Who - what Westerner - really wants the likely truths revealed ? LOL We're not talking about the emperor has no clothes but rather the naked emperor's dirty, sorted acts against U.S. taxpayers (my opinion of course). I see people dying and wars started to protect the Fed'.
As Yogi Berra said 90% of the putts that are short don't go in. and this audit putt will be one of the 90%.
SilverEagle, re. European VAT on silver but not gold purchases ... off the cuff seems like it has at least a duel purpose - to raise revenue for bankrupt governments and help protect their fiat currency's value by suppressing silver commerce which could slow the increase of silver's future rise in value .
As fiat currencies become more worthless it ought to be anticipated a lot of new things will done to suppress silver & gold price advances.
Stinky pinky, I see your point. Seems Willie thinks Central Bank manipulation of gold&silver is nearing collapse. While Willie said their game is futile he also said the bankers will play it to the end. I'm wondering how much longer this will take. Keeping in mind the rank & file manipulators have already strung the game out farther than many imagined possible I'm cautious about expecting a quick end to silver&gold's downward price manipulation.
I admit I squeezed Willie's article : ) to make a point that the manipulation might? continue longer than some stackers think
and caution is in order.
Stinky pinky, Willie has offered that both gold & silver will
be manipulated (no doubt downward as much as possible) until near the end of the present fiat currency system.
Current gold & sliver stackers should *consider* planning their accumulation with this as a likely scenario.
xjag, thank you re. the kind assessment of my mental state : ).
There's so much information re. the economic future of countries
it becomes a mind boggling exercise to draw even vaguely defined
outcomes.
For example, an article I read this morning suggested that due to
the USA's aggressive research & development during the last several years we are (basically... my interpretation) energy self sufficient. (This is the first I've heard of our oil independence).
The article strongly suggested this country might be on the cusp of prosperity. http://www.telegraph/co/uk/finance/comment/9351251/Sliding-oil-price-could-herald-the-beginning-of-a-recovery.html
....Sorry if my link doesn't work.....Safe to say I took issue with the writer's conclusion. Even if
his premise of years of $80-$90 a barrel oil is correct I'm wondering how this impacts the U.S. in its efforts to bring back millions of jobs that went to countries with friendlier tax laws and much cheaper labor. (As I understood things, very expensive oil translated into much higher cost of importing goods to the United States making the goods too expensive and mostly this was the reason for foreign jobs returning home). Nor did the writer mention our 16 trillion & rapidly debt and its impact on a swift recovery.
The article's author didn't delve into the HOW this near term Heaven-on-Earth would happen, just that lower oil prices would usher it in (implied) quickly.
one4theroad, Every time I consider economic possibilities my brain feels like it shrinks to the size of a pea - so many variables !
One such possibility you and others have offered of the EU falling or moving into further disarray before Obama&&Bernanke bring QE3 is interesting.
An EU in much distress would probably strengthen the dollar which would bring down oil/gasoline/diesel & many imported goods prices (helping Obama's election chances). Then, waiting until the 'last minute' to 'save our country' with QE3 and no doubt other acts reeks with presidential shenanigans.
Yep, I'm paranoid as H. lol
White Cobra, good to read your work is yielding nice results. Persistent small accumulation of silver multiplied by a few years will create a physical mountain.
Sorry you're sick S p. Hope you're already feeling better.
Stinky pinky, thanks for posting Kim's article.
He seems to have accurately detailed descriptions of JP Morgan's (JPM) mounting losses and SemGroup Holdings' loss via Goldman Sac's gain. This demonstrates he knows what's happening. While he mentions some of the forces that are working to unravel JP Morgan's grip on physical silver's price he opts for a sea of public buying physical silver as the ultimate force breaking JPM's manipulative grip. This will take a while.
I'm hoping his two books sell extremely well as this would help educate potential physical silver buyers.
Stinky pinky, finally Ted Butler is finished giving Gary Gensler the-benefit-of-the-doubt as he has for a long, long time. I'm reminded of Doug Casey's essay The Ascendance of Sociopaths in Governance
If my memory serves me OK it seems Martin Armstrong was railroaded to Federal Prison a few years for not revealing his sources in a scam not as big as the current one Butler describes.
tallstahl. sounds about right. Credit Suisse - a Swiss bank - says
the European debt crisis could push oil down to $ 50 a barrel. I can see it now.....oil falling really low, then Europe getting its act together (perceived or real) which would cause the dollar to take a swan dive and drive (U.S.) oil prices through the roof.
Stinky pinky, thanks for the Jim Willie interview link.
Willie is always educational. He's so far ahead of most economic analysts it's scary.
Too many so called analyst are limited to short & intermediate thinking within the present economic fantasy world to see and understand the final consequences of printing too much fiat currency.
one4theroad, Like the SEC, the CFTC seems to be selectively doing part of its job.
On another note, as economic events actually get worse gold&silver prices have shrunk. How can this be ? A fantasy world has been built compliments of many.
(1) As economic events worsen the government paints a different
picture - one of economic rebound - supported by U.S. news media,
services making their living from investors... investors who dearly want to believe things are OK.
(2) Simultaneously government's banking proxies like JP Morgan are manipulating gold&silver prices downward.
End result is an illusion of sorts the economy
is getting better and gold&silver are poor investments.
For those who are Mike Maloney fans and those who aren't...
Maloney has stated the economy will reach a point where it enters deflation which will scare Ben Bernanke into wild money printing. (With the world suffering astronomical amounts of debt a move toward deflation can quickly gain momentum and lurch out of control if not met with sufficient newly created currency).
Several analyst are saying the world is now on the cusp of an unstoppable deflation and that the printing presses must begin printing tremendous amounts of currency or it's curtains for the world's economies.
Physical gold & silver accumulators wait with baited breath : ))