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I guess we do agree on some things...end
jwperk who is Snoozie? end
'Susie924'
"Does that mean that my two sons were political statements?"
I don't know, did you have them to spit in Christianities as well as your fathers face like she did? She is a lesbian advocate, currently using her access to the media to proliferate her cause. If her intentions were pure why spread it to the media?
One can hope you had them for no other reason than love.
Paule Walnuts
Sox fan I understood your point. And agree. She is making a political statement and using a human child to do so.
Question: do you think a political statement will warrant all her love?
Paule Walnuts
IxCimi...No frustration here babe.lol
There was a point there. Caught up in your circle jerk, I guess you just missed it.
Paule Walnuts
BTW, I've been told that our political views are somewhat similar. Waddya think about that.
Beneficence towards the fellow-creature = good!
It's that simple.
"Has God now taken over that role from your own parents?"
About as much as your therapist has you.
Walnuts
IxCimi'....lol
"The problem for you apparently is that you think there is a need for a Thunderous Being to set fire and brimstone upon those who do not follow his commandments."
I don't have that problem. I believe an individual’s happiness or misery in life is dictated by the morality in which they choose to subscribe to. I see no virtue in the foundation of 'Do no harm' that’s all?
You believe in abortion?....How does that co-exist with do no harm? As I said we will now see your justification and denial to an action that many people believe is a great harm. What if that last abortion was the next Mozart? You just did harm on a scale I can't even describe....
Like I keep asking you, where is the virtue?
Do you kill the rapist you catch in the action of raping your wife? Is that not harming? What about the pain you just caused to the rapists family who loved him? They did nothing to you. If you do nothing, then are you not letting your wife be harmed? How do you reconcile that?
“Frankly, I prefer children who do what is required of them without compelling them with threats and punishments.”
Innate morality? Well that would certainly eliminate the need for any sort of parenting. Hmm interesting.
“ If "Do no harm" is not part and parcel to your internal make up, then of course it would have no meaning and little impact on you.”
No, you are right; it’s not and wouldn’t. I’m not that much of an insensitive prick. I operate on the virtuous philosophy of Do good only.
Virtue: What is virtue? Beneficence towards the fellow-creature. Can I call virtue things other than those which do me good? I am needy, you are generous. I am in danger, you help me. I am deceived, you tell me the truth. I am neglected, you console me. I am ignorant, you teach me. Without difficulty I shall call you virtuous. But what will become of the cardinal and divine virtues? Some of them will remain in the schools.
What does it matter to me that you are temperate? you observe a precept of health; you will have better health, and I am happy to hear it. You have faith and hope, and I am happy still; they will procure you eternal life. Your divine virtues are celestial gifts; your cardinal virtues are excellent qualities which serve to guide you : but they are not virtues as regards your fellow-creature. The prudent man does good to himself, the virtuous man does good to mankind. St. Paul was right to tell you that charity prevails over faith and hope.
But shall only those that are useful to one's fellow-creature be admitted as virtues? How can I admit any others? We live in society; really, therefore, the only things that are good for us are those that are good for society. A recluse will be sober, pious; he will be clad in hair-cloth; he will be a saint: but I shall not call him virtuous until he has done some act of virtue by which other men have profited. So long as he is alone, he is doing neither good nor evil; for us he is nothing. If St. Bruno brought peace to families, if he succoured want, he was virtuous; if he fasted, prayed in solitude, he was a saint. Virtue among men is an interchange of kindness; he who has no part in this interchange should not be counted. If this saint were in the world, he would doubtless do good; but so long as he is not in the world, the world will be right in refusing him the title of virtuous; he will be good for himself and not for us.
But, you say to me, if a recluse is a glutton, a drunkard, given to secret debauches with himself, he is vicious; he is virtuous, therefore, if he has the Opposite qualities. That is what I cannot agree : he is a very disagreeable fellow if he has the faults you mention; but he is not vicious, wicked, punishable as regards society to whom these infamies do no harm. It is to be presumed that were he to return to society he would do harm there, that he would be very vicious; and it is even more probable that he would be a wicked man, than it is sure that the other temperate and chaste recluse would be a virtuous man, for in society faults increase, and good qualities diminish.
A much stronger objection is made; Nero, Pope Alexander VI., and other monsters of this species, have bestowed kindnesses; I answer hardily that on that day they were virtuous.
A few theologians say that the divine emperor Antonine was not virtuous; that he was a stubborn Stoic who, not content with commanding men, wished further to be esteemed by them; that he attributed to himself the good he did to the human race; that all his life he was just, laborious, beneficent through vanity, and that lie only deceived men through his virtues. " My God ! " I exclaim. " Give us often rogues like him ! " Voltaire
Paule Walnuts.
P.S. maybe this will help you classify me better.
Deism: Deism is a term coined in the philosophe movement and applies to two related ideas: a) religion should be reasonable and should result in the highest moral behavior of its adherents; b) the knowledge of the natural world and the human world has nothing to do whatsoever with religion and should be approached completely free from religious ideas or convictions.
tinner...
And you like this BUM?
No. But what I dislike even more are those who are eager to point out and attack any wrong doing on one side, while purposefully failing to so with the other.
With this type of hypocrisy present no wonder our leaders are a bunch of dirt bags.
Paule Walnuts
Question: Tinner? You a sheet metal man?
'ergo sum'...good post even!...
Nice backhand against capitalism.
Paule Walnuts
BullNBear52..
"Want to compare notes sweetie?"
This better not be some sort or atheist homosexual come-on. Paule don't swing that way!
"indicted under Reagan and Bush then rehired under Bush Jr."
Only if you start with the Clintons.
"Seems you're forgeting"
I forget nothing. I have from the start claimed that both parties are corrupt to the core; ignorant,stupid or evil are those that would side with either one of them.
"You remind me of the 3 monkeys."
Do you know me?
Paule Walnuts
'ergo sum'
"That was kind of a long post but you didn’t actually say anything."
I can only do so much with the material given me.
Paule Walnuts
I presume nothing...you guessed wrong ;)~..end
Koikaze..What about apathetic complacency? end
'ergo sum'
"Yet you claim 100,000 deaths are you sure that number is accurate? I don’t think so."
I never made this claim. I offered you 100,000 just to get you started as your knowledge of the last 2000 years in relation to theist killings is somewhat lacking. I was only trying to help you prove your false statement.
"The population of Europe declined"
It did so during the Lisbon earthquake and again with the black plague. You have yet to tie that statement in with religions deaths.
"You seem to think your numbers are somehow real"
Well I do have 8 years of study in western civilization. And apparently unlike you I have a stack of reference material sitting right behind me...They are called history books.
"The point is that “theists” do this just as commonly as anyone else.” People kill people because of belief systems, be they ideological, cultural or religious."
Although I absolutely agree with this statement and find it to be the most truthful thing from you in this discussion so far, This was not your original premise. I understand why you want to change it now.
"Often unfortunately at God’s bidding."
Really? You ask God this? I thought it was like your atheist buddy claims just a few bad apples spoiling the whole bunch?
You know that 'Do no harm' bs...
Paule Walnuts
You and Charlie Savage should seek mental help. That post is so full of BS, one one has to have some sort of metal disorder to accept any part of it as truth.
Affirmative action in war? This is just insane. You don't fill positions or make laws based on race or sexuality. YOU YOU YOU idiots fought against these gross injustices, now spend your dying breaths trying to reinstate them. Affirmative action IS PURE RACISM why do you champion it so much? Need to get something off your shoulders? We'll listen. I mean conservatives are the truely compassionate ones. Unlike you, I won't judge your character based upon your political beliefs...
Ever heard of an executive order? Your boy Clinton subverted the law ( as you define subversion) 436 times via this Constitutionally provided method.
Where is your outrage?
Mr. Bush could have, and still can go one hell of a lot further, and it would be 100% legal as provided in the Constitution. Ponder that. Or does your personal hatred for one man cloud your ability to reason with any sort of rational thought?
Paule Walnuts
'ergo sum' numbers buddy, you just cant make such an unsubstantiated claim, where are your numbers?
I gave you over 100,000 documented deaths at the hands of Theists. Now you prove with documentation another 99,900,000 deaths by theists hands and we'll have an honest discussion. Go back as far as you want. I’m good for the last 2000 years. Just make sure you stick to western European religions. However even the Muslims cannot claim the huge number of deaths put up by them thar atheists.
Side note: ever notice how the majority of crimes by theists were committed against other theists. And similarly crimes committed by atheists are almost always against theists as well... Oh and if what you claim has any truth to it(it doesn’t) then another interesting note would be that it took 2000 years for theists to do what atheists did in less than 10.
Yep them atheist do no harm all right. We should adopt a Communist government today!
Paule Walnuts
Proof. You provide none!
"Guess you haven't realized Bush has been editing the Constitution. Checked his signing statements out?"
Paule Walnuts
Yep, evil triumphs when good men do nothing...
Saddam was a good guy...lol
Paule Walnuts
Start with Josylin Elders..end
Hey Alex can you or better yet will you...
point out all the Dems with the same condition?
I didn't think so.
Paule Walnuts
Invisible spaghetti monster to attack America
Pale Walnuts
And the same cannot be said about religion?..
To Atheists You extend the courtesy of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, why not with Theists?
Paule Walnuts
Ok...
"lies and deception by the President and Vice President were the basis for a foreign policy of War and Aggression,"
The President didn't lie. And this war was not about United States Aggression...
"spying on citizens without warrants" Yet another lie.
US president and attorney general would defend torture or that a Republican Congress would pass a bill Legalizing Torture by the Executive Branch and exempting the executive branch from the Geneva Conventions?" another lie
US Congress to accept the president's claim that he is above the law? " This never happened
Let’s start here, but to me one lie is sufficient to throw out the whole thing...
Paule Walnuts
To many lies to be of any true value. eom
I'll give you more help..The great Martin Luther in 1540 had 40,000 Christian followers killed to stop an insurrection that HE started.
Still have not come close to 100 mill mark but still counting....
Come on, judging by death tolls #'S Christians are still WAY BEHIND ATHEISTS....
by THAT standard,I.E.YOUR standard Christians are by far better than atheists.
Do no harm is a great philosophy...lol
Pauly Walnuts
Yes lets. You provide documentation to this fact(hic)...
I'll help you out here. Source...From the book 'Dawn To Decadence' by Jacques Barzun. French history scholar with over 20 books to his name..
Spanish Inquisition...30,000 all documented with public notary
French Inquisition... 15,-20,000 again all documented and on file in Rome...
Salem Witch hunts 200 documented...
Here’s your start...Along way to go to reach 100,000,000 but I’m sure after making that statement you have the numbers to make up the difference?
Oh and by the way I haven’t finished with the atheist death toll yet. Tell me when you have reached with documentation the 100mill mark and I’ll give you yet another atrocious death toll by the hands of atheists. 200,000 Christians killed in the Congo last year. Attempted genocide by Communists. National religion atheism...
Paule Walnuts
PegnVA..
You are making the point you agrue against.
Paule Walnuts
To bad the atheists Stalin, Marx and Poll Pot weren’t..
"More restrictive than the average law to the thinking man"
“More restricted to the law than the average thinking man.” paraphrased
With over 100,000 000 million deaths attributed to the three, It's a wonder why atheism isn't more main stream?
Madam O'Hare, Ayn Rand, Bertrand Russell, Richard Dawkins...
None of these renound atheists can hold a candle to your extremely lacking 'Do no harm' philosophy.
I ask you again, where is the virtue? If you take a brief look at Voltaire’s philosophical dictionary under the heading 'Virtue', you might understand what I am asking you.
Do you need a link?
Paule Walnuts
BTW Voltaire wrongly misclassified as an Atheist, was actually a Deist. At his funeral over 800,000 marched the streets praising him.
Hap I commend your courage....However,
"if they have a D or R or I, it gives a clue as to where they fit in the political process"
Making a decision based upon political affiliation only, as it seems you are suggesting totally allows for corruptions infestation of the process. It doesn’t seem you read Fred’s post all the way through. I find it a hypocritical and horrific practice.
"But the mainstay of our political system is that every politician is watched over by a free press dedicated to exposing wrongs"
No it is not. Question do you think today that our news media outlets are non-bias? I'll give you a hint. One media owner supports Hezbollah through his wife’s foundation and public web site. This is seditious and absolutely anti-American.
"it is a system that allows for changes in political power without bloodshed"
The system was designed so the THE PEOPLE would hold the power not a political group. These political groups are tearing Americans apart cannot you see this?
"and allows any citizen the opportunity to become president/senator/representative if he/she desires"
Be honest with yourself. This statement is simply not true in any way.
Paule Walnuts
Koikaze...
I had spent much time responding to two of your postings to me then realized that my response did not lead to what we ( I think we want the same thing) are trying to accomplish. So even though we disagree I will concede the point as my analogy of a theocracy was not quite correct. I'm trying to avoid being misconstrued as a totalitarian in nature.
Thank you for realizing that I do have an open mind. My religious beliefs will not interfere with our discussions as I am a Deist...Belief in God ..yes. Belief that God intervenes in mankind’s affairs…no. With that being said…
“we must devise a method of selecting representatives which eliminates deceit and obfuscation and rewards probity.”
I do not believe the people who run this show will ever let that happen. I refer to term limits which are voted for by the people, then as was done here in Oregon; legislated or judiciated(sp?) out in midnight sessions, with no media outlet reporting to the citizen until way after the fact when no further action can be taken.
Unfortunately, religion, politics and money; all go hand in hand and corruption is mired in all three. Seeking the most money possible even the most crooked politician totes around a bible in a pomp display of ‘probity’ in order to win the popularity contest we refer to as elections.
“humans are, by nature, good.”
I honestly cannot answer this to any satisfaction.
True law comes from within. It can be stated in few words.
"Do no harm..."
Mighty flexible. Where is the virtue?
At least the theist is required to do good and not focus upon self. Guilt or the attack of conscious as you put it is what causes the theist to ask forgiveness for his actions. Repentance requires action. The atheist feels bad then seeks refuge within the house of justification and denial.
Specious my ass. I have yet to see the Atheist foundation for the sick and homeless. The atheist foundation for the cure of aids, the atheist foundation for the systematic slaughter of the 400,000 human beings in South Africa
I can site 100's of theist organizations.
I do see however many many Atheist foundations for the attack and removal of religion. You know a direct assault upon another’s FAITH, the core values and belief system that structures their very being. Relentless this assault, and not very congruent with “Do No Harm!”
Paule Walnuts
Koikaze. You are more eloquent of a writer than I...
"For whatever it's worth, my efforts are directed toward "finding a way to correct it". It's a task that requires on open mind, careful thought, good will, and a belief that there is "a way to correct it"."
Mine too, believe it or not. Absolutely there is a way. We must remember though that all throughout history the most evil and vile atrocities have been committed by the very people we had looked to for leadership. I fear today is no different.
It seems today that we have no true leaders. No individuals that will stand up and tell everybody what is truly right, what direction we need to go, as a country as a people. Our so called leaders today care only for themselves and have no vision. They themselves are governed by polls. I.E. other people’s opinions. A true leader does what’s right despite other people’s opinions. The slow degradation of our core principals, the very foundation in which this country was built upon is under assault today by the elected leaders who claim to want to fix the problem.I digress.
I think leadership is the place to start. I think only a full blown revolution with the complete removal of all...every last single person in power or of authority, and replace them with new patriots that seek the betterment of this country rather than their own fortune. Don’t get me wrong I do not advocate violence but I feel it’s the only way today’s leaders will give up their power over us. I remember someone or something saying… Of the people By the people For the people….It’s quite different today.
The Declaration of Independence says the very same thing I am this moment. The founding fathers pledged their lives their liberty (property wealth) for the betterment of all Americans and they did this in writing and blood. Jefferson also believed in a good revolution every now and then, ‘to keep a Democracy strong’.
Today’s citizen IS consumed with only self. Even the most devout will not risk their own poverty or personal hardship in their quest to better society...I digress again
Anyway nice post Fred.
Paule Walnuts
extelecom.. I've seen this before. Very Good.
Funny how we can be more worried about what other
> > people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the
> > idea come from that we should worship Nick and
> > Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we
> > understand Him?
I have no idea where the concept came from that
> > America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't
> > find it in the Constitution, and I don't like it
> > being shoved down my throat.
In June of 1954 an amendment was made to add the words "under God". Then-President Dwight D. Eisenhower said "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."
"I believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people by the people, for the people, whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a Republic; a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect Union, one and inseparable; established upon those principls of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.
I therefore believe it is my duty to my Country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws; to respect its flag, and to defend it againest all enemies."
The Pledge of Allegiance
I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands,
one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
I am the Flag
by Ruth Apperson Rous
I am the flag of the United States of America.
I was born on June 14, 1777, in Philadelphia.
There the Continental Congress adopted my stars and stripes as the national flag.
My thirteen stripes alternating red and white, with a union of thirteen white stars in a field of blue, represented a new constellation, a new nation dedicated to the personal and religious liberty of mankind.
Today fifty stars signal from my union, one for each of the fifty sovereign states in the greatest constitutional republic the world has ever known.
My colors symbolize the patriotic ideals and spiritual qualities of the citizens of my country.
My red stripes proclaim the fearless courage and integrity of American men and boys and the self-sacrifice and devotion of American mothers and daughters.
My white stripes stand for liberty and equality for all.
My blue is the blue of heaven, loyalty, and faith.
I represent these eternal principles: liberty, justice, and humanity.
I embody American freedom: freedom of speech, religion, assembly, the press, and the sanctity of the home.
I typify that indomitable spirit of determination brought to my land by Christopher Columbus and by all my forefathers - the Pilgrims, Puritans, settlers at James town and Plymouth.
I am as old as my nation.
I am a living symbol of my nation's law: the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.
I voice Abraham Lincoln's philosophy: "A government of the people, by the people,for the people."
I stand guard over my nation's schools, the seedbed of good citizenship and true patriotism.
I am displayed in every schoolroom throughout my nation; every schoolyard has a flag pole for my display.
Daily thousands upon thousands of boys and girls pledge their allegiance to me and my country.
I have my own law—Public Law 829, "The Flag Code" - which definitely states my correct use and display for all occasions and situations.
I have my special day, Flag Day. June 14 is set aside to honor my birth.
Americans, I am the sacred emblem of your country. I symbolize your birthright, your heritage of liberty purchased with blood and sorrow.
I am your title deed of freedom, which is yours to enjoy and hold in trust for posterity.
If you fail to keep this sacred trust inviolate, if I am nullified and destroyed, you and your children will become slaves to dictators and despots.
Eternal vigilance is your price of freedom.
As you see me silhouetted against the peaceful skies of my country, remind yourself that I am the flag of your country, that I stand for what you are - no more, no less.
Guard me well, lest your freedom perish from the earth.
Dedicate your lives to those principles for which I stand: "One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
I was created in freedom. I made my first appearance in a battle for human liberty.
God grant that I may spend eternity in my "land of the free and the home of the brave" and that I shall ever be known as "Old Glory," the flag of the United States of America.
A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, </B>
"The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War."
"Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861."
The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.
Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel three-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto."
He thought so. We of course didn't bastardize and distort Gods message and eventually put a stop to Hitler’s nightmarish reign. Christian solders did this not Atheists.
Listen you say religion has caused problems in the past and I agree. But if as Marx said ‘Religion is the Opiate of the masses’ then what opiate are we going to replace religion with...Hedonism?
Paule Walnuts