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The Corporate Guarantee was identified in the CT prospectus.
People bought shares in the CTs based on this Guarantee.
People who bought shares after the POR was approved, however, may have bought "impaired" shares.
Nonetheless, the Guarantee was a part from the beginning.
mojo
I think you're very unfair, joe.
You're willing to overlook all the legal misrepresentations in both the WAMU and LBHI BK cases so to abscond with the debt holders for all their personal gain.
All I've said that if it goes the way of a complete and utter looting then good luck with your charity and not for profits and pay back the equity holders as per their covenants in their prospectus agreements.
I don't find it necessary to educate or teach someone who proports to loot and abscond with a business cache and charter they never understood nor respected in the first place.
It has all been about a fire sale and creating fear in the market place for you to short. That is nasty!
Go see your Doctors and pay your attorneys.
Good luck.
mojo
Ok, Joe.
Have it your way.
Good luck with your Ant Farm.
mojo
Good luck with the non-profit Fart Arms, Joe! A 501c3 non-profit!
First, pay the CTs and all the Preferrds!
Hopefully, it works out for everyone!
mojo
Can anyone show me where LBHI Debt Holder and Subordinated Debt Holder Claims or any Claims Subject to Compromise (other than LBHI Equity Claims) are to be paid out of the 51% Equity Holder share of the NOL tax credit?
Where?
mojo
Updated Distribution Percentages included in 8K.
Link: https://www.streetinsider.com/dr/news.php?id=16328139&gfv=1#
Senior Classes are 3, 4A, 4B & 5 and have been paid 46.817%-29.465%.
These claims total $164.51B.
Classes 7, 8, 9A total $23.987B and have been paid 43.825%-27.735%.
RACERS are Class 9B and have 16.862%. No claim amount is been stated.
Class 6A & 6B, Convenience & Guaranteed Convenience Claims, are not listed. They were identified in prior filings but were not guaranteed payment ahead of subordinated debt.
The Capital Structure is composed of all these Claim Classes and the legal provisions identified in the prospectus of each issue in the Claim Classes.
Some issues in Claim Classes are more closely correlated if not, in fact, causal to financing different LBHI Banking Operations, such as Derivatives, Mortgage Lending, etc.
They didn't all provide the same return. Why should they have the same distribution amount?
They all weren't executed with the same risk. Why should they have the same distribution amount?
They're all not showing the same loss percentages in the business lines and subsidiaries. Why should they all have the same distribution amount?
They all were not provided the same global guarantee. Why should they all be paid the same distribution amount?
They all aren't identified as Tier-1 Capital. Why should they all be paid the same distribution amount?
They all don't have the same parity clause. Why should they be paid the same distribution amount?
They all don't continue to trade and don't continue to credit LBHI for additional income. Why should they be paid the same distribution amount?
They all aren't impaired. Why should they be paid the same distribution amount?
Good luck.
mojo
jersey,
Yes, the charity expectations make for more pockets to line. But, it may only be another legal provision to understand, not that it will be approved or used.
Wu et al seems to think they were misclassified with ECAPS decisions and parity clauses as provided in the prospectus.
Why not make pre-impaired shares worth 2 impaired shares? 2:1?
The stays do not absolve their abdication of duties under the deferment period clause in the prospectus.
Thanks!
mojo
swiss,
Say you identified the legal provisions for NOLs, CODs and the Discharge of Debt correctly with all their tax advantages to various parties.
In LBHI's case with $130B in claims Subject to Compromise and $55B in NOLs, why would the LBHI Estate want to discharge any debt if they can increase the NOLs with claims Subject to Compromise and provide the claim holders a percentage share of a new issue?
If the DIP goes down the road of discharging debt with any residuals going to charity, all that's going to do is open the door to more creditors and claim holders saying they were treated unfairly and they were standing in line with global guarantees on sub debt, etc.
mojo
By definition, Chp 7 (LBI) is liquidation.
Chp 11 (LBHI) is restructuring but can also include liquidation.
So, it depends where the Estate, Trustee and the attorneys go.
Why keep CTs trading with a preferred escrow account all these years?
Yep, you have to for the NOLs.
Legal provisions out of bankruptcy code are not the indication that the Estate, Trustee & Attorneys are going necessarily.
Whatever direction they choose will have legal provisions but they can be dealing with more than one direction, more than one likely option.
Good luck.
swiss,
You're citing legal provisions for the Discharge of Debt not anything from the current Lehman 8-k.
And, I think we can agree all NOLs will be used before debt is discharged.
However, the Judge is known to prefer Debtors use NOLs as opposed COD.
However, there are a number of Debtors complying with the Judge's request just keeping their positions in for the Estate to decide what to pay when and how to pay it.
However, the LBHI Holding Co. Chp 11 filing provides for a restructuring and not a Chp 7 liquidation.
However, 49% of the NOL credits go to the Debtors while 51% go to the Equity holders.
Legal provisions and legal strategy may have different results.
mojo
goodie,
Good question and observation.
After reading this in the current 8-k, I'm wondering if they are going to discharge any debt at all!
Could their pathway be using all the NOLs they can and formulate the new Holding Company?
I don't see the value of the COD when the Judge prefers other pathways and significant Debt Holders are not selling their claims either.
The small investors may decide but the Institutions that made Lehman are sticking to their investments and gleaning whatever they can with the entity that was a quality business.
I could be wrong but I think their are many merits to what I'm observing.
IMO, those selling claims for COD and not keeping their claim in the Bankruptcy for Lehman NOLs for restructuring, are the looters and bailing out on the distributions they've received to date plus their sale proceeds and COD credits on their 2019 tax filing.
mojo
sideorder,
They could be part of some settlement somewhere.
Maybe the Trustees are buying.
The fact is, after the impairment in 2012, nobody knows how this is going to be settled.
People may claim all kinds of things on this Board or elsewhere, but nobody knows unless they can state the settlement proposed for the shares bought before the impairment and damaged beyond the prospectus deferment period.
I have pre-impaired and impaired shares and stand around with pre-pink WAMUS, too, only to watch, in disbelief, JPM attorneys mischaracterize and misrepresent every item on every balance sheet WAMU could ever produce for the Courts.
Occasionally, they were reprimanded as they were corrected. So, go get new attorneys JPM! Go see your Doctors!
That's how fraud and looting works, folks. They didn't like the price so they burnt the house down.
Yet, the shares continue to trade.
mojo
Why isn't looting a $639B Balance Sheet relevant discussion on this message board?
They've distributed $127B over 11 years and $270B in Claims STC.
Our CTs have been impaired by the Estate and approved by the Courts granting stays over and above an agreed to 5 year deferment period exactly because of behavior and actions like looting.
Explain.
mojo
We're Ok now, swiss?
Good.
And, you just got your courage, Lion!
LOL!
I posted earlier the GS claim transfers totaled $628M in a number of filed dockets which isn't significant.
I've yet to see a significant amount of GS claims sold. There is a large number of small claims.
They can sell what they want and claim their tax adjustments.
Same with C.
All I'm saying is these claims may identify an NOL adjustment with a COD, contrary to what the Judge has instructed, but the remaining debt STC will likely need an NOL net increase approved by the Judge if the unsecured debtors and Claim Holders will take a new position in a new Holding Company.
They can help capitalize it, underwrite a new offering and contract business competency for profit, all while taking a return as an investor. The new Holding can be at 277 Park or Canary Warf.
All of this can occur while the Subsidiaries raise capital and decide what they want with a new Holding and where they would prefer to see the new Holding operate.
GL
Swiss,
Even if they did a 1:10 split for common, that would be a good deal with an additional $2.3B+/- going to debtors.
So, keep the trou on for Christmas!
LOL!
mojo
Merry Christmas, Swiss.
Did you drop trou?
mojo
Did $2B of STC Claims sell?
It doesn't look like it. $2B in sold claims is a lot of dockets but I don't look at them all.
It doesn't seem possible to have $55B NOLs with $130B Claims STC.
After the New Year we'll start hearing more news.
Judge Chapman is out skiing . . .
My point is there were dockets filed that show claims were sold but nowhere near $120B-$130B.
I totaled about $630M GS claims sold or transferred.
$80M+ of C claims.
Another $10B approximately won't be sold.
So, maybe they sold $2B of claims in the auction less whatever payments they made on the debt.
That would leave $54B in NOLs out of $130B of claims subject to compromise.
So, are NOLs now $128B?
That is $26.88B in tax savings for an impound account.
CTs, cumulative & non-cumulative preferreds would be paid 100%.
Commons could be credited $3.75 per share with a new issue
Another $13.171B would go to the unpaid debt positions in a new incorporation with any other funds they could find and with whatever is left on the balance sheets.
Could it all go to zero after that?
Possibly. So, they shouldn't bring Lehman back without a strong business plan in order for the Debtors to get more than whatever they were paid and another 20%-30%+/-.
Maybe a new Lehman could contract for C, BNYM & JPM to do something in derivatives, bridge loans or cp.
However, if the stock goes from $4.00 to $20-$30, everybody could make money hand over fist.
Possible but not likely.
Why? Too many thumbs on the scale.
cotton,
<<Why would JPMCB pick up the tab for LBHI's London Canary Wharf Headquarters [AIG's four year rent guarantee policy for LBHI] when JPMCB purchased that building in 2010?>>
Why should they pick it up?
What is the sublease market?
LBHI could be paid a premium for the space leased?
Or, did they cancel the lease for cancelled debt when JPMCB purchased the building?
mojo
ETA on quantity of claims sold through auction?
denny,
Remember the $4B cash deposit misrepresentation?
Rosen said it wasn't the WAMU Holding Company's account and was corrected by the Judge.
Rosen went on and on about delinquencies and poor collection rates of WAMU's mortgage products and credit card businesses and they turned out to be better than JPM rates.
Rosen said he represented equity?
Dimon said he'd make adjustments to WAMU shareholders and hasn't.
Lastly, I'm glad someone compared the Impeachment proceedings to Lehman/WAMU. So many similarities including, as Turley said, people make arguments and allegations with no material facts to win power, including reading the same transcript and arriving at different conclusions.
JPM and Dimon have been cutting people's hearts out. Why?
As he said in the recent CBS/Lesley Stahl interview, "He was always open to acquisitions and mergers if it didn't put him and his shareholders at risk."
That's fine but is it fair?
It hasn't been so far and I doubt it will be unless the Judges make him do it.
mojo
Quote screens opening?
LEHFQ is opening, too.
Nothing for LEHCQ yet.
No Market Actions updated in OTC as of yet for CTs or Lehman Preferreds.
No announcements.
CT's continue to lag at lows and they're paid first.
Could it all happen at once?
It would have to wind it's way through the DTC first.
Possibly. Ok, 5% chance after 11 years, if all NOLs credited at the same time with 51% of the proceeds.
The 49% balance goes to the remaining debtors and the $1.35 common in a new issue, possibly.
Who knows?
Skepticism reigns.
Another $400k+ to me so, of course, I'd like to see but it's not likely.
And, I'd love to see my original WAMU shares trading with a JPM ticker at $130 with cash for damages but we're dreaming.
The rest of the WAMUQ holders can go on with their split.
jersey,
Are you going to come over for Thanksgiving?
mojo
When they get all the Attorney Friends in the Court Room to play Hearts, it's hard to get back to business.
They don't want to have to go back to their coffins by sunrise.
Entered sometime this morning:
08-13555-scc Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. Ch. 11
Doc #59936 Motion of the Plan Administrator for an Order in Aide of Execution of the Modified Third Amended Joint Chapter 11 Plan of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. and Its Affiliated Debtors
Adjourned Reset for 12/05/2019 at 10:00 am
Maybe you vape?
You're right, jersey.
If people make money with Dimon, they're happy.
If they don't, they're a nobody, fleeced and dead or worse.
GL
Dimon says we have the best economy in the World, then this:
"Lesley Stahl: Let's talk about the wage gap in this country between the rich and almost everybody else. How much of a problem do you see that?
Jamie Dimon: I think it's a huge problem and I think the wealthy have been getting wealthier too much, in many ways. So middle-class incomes have been kinda flat for maybe 15 years or so. And that's not particularly good in America. But in particular, at the low end, 40% of Americans make $15 an hour or less. They've particularly been left behind.
Lesley Stahl: You're talking about people who earn very little money. Listen to this statistic. Compensation for executives, CEOs, grew 940%, 940%, in the last 40 years. Your average worker, so middle class, middle class, grew 12%.
Jamie Dimon: We haven't done a good job growing our economy. And that would fix a lot of that problem."
Does Dimon want to abscond with WAMU & Lehman Assets at JPM Chase, refuse to honor prospectus guarantees and parity clauses and run charity businesses in Detroit?
How can anyone here think otherwise after seeing these two interview videos?
The WAMU balance sheet was $320B & LEHM was $613B.
Dimon paid $1.9B for WAMU when the WAMU had more than $4B cash in savings and 2200 branches.
Lehman had a $613B+ balance sheet, distributes $126B and claims there are $130B in claims subject to compromise with maybe $30B in assets remaining.
Jamie Dimon on 60 Minutes:
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/jamie-dimon-jp-morgan-chase-ceo-the-60-minutes-interview-2019-11-10/#x
Dimon wants to give charity to Detroit:
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/jamie-dimon-jp-morgan-chase-ceo-makes-data-focused-investment-in-detroit-60-minutes-2019-11-10/
They sit at the discount window, too, with their hands out which could help.
It could be something with Marcus, an ETF, CTs or a larger bond play.
It could be one or two of those things or any combination.
If they can make money on it, they will but they probably won't pay anymore than they have to for the deal and would make it all up on their bonuses.
They play to get the business.
In all the Lehman docudramas, CEO Blankfein was arguably the most sympathetic towards all the LBHI underwriting and operations and, if anyone could have made money with LBHI, it would be him.
Not Dimon. Not Marsal. Not Buffet, Thain, etc.
I just don't want to be the nickel they leave on the table at the end of the discharge.
GL
They can do it all: buy, sell, option, manage, trustees, IPO, ETFs, etc.
They'll straddle both sides of the line, too, and do more with Governments and Institutions than anyone.
GL
AAPL split on June 9, 2009 1/7.
AAPL June 13, 14, 2005: $5.13
Today, $248 after splits.
I played ball with a Nationals Coach.
Their odds were greater than 0.1% after 10/29/19 with Scherzer taking the mound although he had an ump favoring Greinke and made too much work out of it.
Just like A&M, WGM & the SDNY.
For whatever reason, this LBHI BK Admin is one Kangaroo Court after another.
Good luck.
joe is out "theorizing", jersey, regarding the proceeds of the sale of claims and the treatment of Claims Subject to Compromise after discharge.
The Courts have instructed the "buying down of claims," approved the current Claim Sale and the LBHI Estate followed up with a letter to the IRS regarding the NOL treatment of remaining debt for which they would exchange an interest in a new issue.
So, until this is finalized in the Courts, we won't know how they will solve it all.
But, what do I know?
GL
Thanks, jersey.
The CTs were ALWAYS covered by the 51% equity portion of the $55B NOL tax impound account no matter who was POTUS and what tax rate was to be applied.
And, they had the Corporate Guarantee to fall back on.
ALWAYS.
Forever.
On this basis I invested.
Now, if the Estate, Debtors, Counsel & Courts are moving up the NOLs from $55B through remaining Claims Subject to Compromise, so be it.
That treatment offers more for the Equity claims to work with and the Debtors get 49%+/- in a new restructured Holding they've left for dead or would like to now bring into the fold.
They can only loot so much! Obviously, they thought they were entitled and jumped on as much as they could.
Some Senior Debtors have been paid 100% while others have received nothing.
Others have received distributions every 6 months while others have received nothing.
But, IMO, none of the Senior Debtors have guaranteed the financing necessary yet to fully restructure LBHI while we wait.
JPM could write a check for billions today out of their $200B cash reserve Dimon talked about last week in the conference call.
So, why should they participate any longer before CTs and Preferreds benefit from the NOLs?
It should have been done years ago.
GL, jersey.
Johnson wants a new popular vote in 3 months before new discussions on BREXIT.
Is this going to hold anything up?
Explain.
By the way, I thought I used COD and not CDO in my prior post but found it to be corrected today.