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>>as for the docket I quoted this from, you'll be able to find it<<
Why just not give Mellowbird the docket number so this debate can move along and you both are looking at the same documents?
You said "Plan already decided which assets go to claims holders and which assets go to LBHI Plan Trust "
You appear to be saying that is in the plan itself, or the trustees have decided. If that is the case you should be able to provide some documentation for that.
>>In the event that all Allowed Claims in LBHI Classes 1 through 11 have been satisfied in full <<<
The CTs are in class 10B. Why would you argue about possible stock distributions to shareholders if class 10b has not been satisfied in full? Class 10b has to be satisfied in full as well as all classes up to class 11 before stock distributions can happen.
Yes, the plan does need to cover for that 'black swan' event where the assets may have brought in much more than expected. But remember that plan was written in 2011. And here in 2023 we now know that it is very understood that there will be no distribution as all the assets will be liquidated with the creditors stall falling some $100nillion short of being paid in full.
Not true. No assets are going to to the LBHI plan trust. All are being liquidated. The plan makes that very clear.
Fair point. But hard to have a serious discussion with someone that calls you a clown after time and time again trying.
"Mellow and Joe, you 2 will entertain everything else I say but won’t talk Lehman. Straight clowns"
If you don't agree with his take on Lehman you are not talking Lehman. Not unexpected. Swiss is young and immature.
There will only be stock distributions if there are remaining assets after all creditors have been satisfied in full. It is well known now 12 years out that there will be none. So there will be no stock distributions to equity holders.
But, the CTs are not equity. They are a creditor. Stock will only be distributed to equity holders once the CTs and all other creditors are satisfied in full. The CTs would never get stock as all assets will be liquidated.
Swiss, you are splitting hairs. Dissolution is basically defines the process for terminating an entity. And in business used interchangeably. When you terminate a business you file a "Certificate of Dissolution" as noted in the Modified plan.
>>Meaning, this can only end once stock distributions are completed. <<
Let me get this straight. This is important. Only after the liquidating trust liquidates the entire estate leaving nothing else to be liquidated and distributes all proceeds, only then can the liquidating trust be terminated? Wow! Does Cotton know about this?
>>but who knows whats coming<<
I do. If you are familiar with the bankruptcy process it was obvious in 2011 just looking at the financials. The disclosure statement said that the CTs, or those in class10b, would see zero recovery. An investor needs to start there and find why the disclosure statement is wrong versus you, an inexperienced investor, looking to a social network of other inexperienced investors, to prove yourself right This board suffers from severe confirmation bias. You grasp at any theory that sees the CTs getting a recovery without question. Yet, you make personal attacks on those that do. Even going as far as calling my not-for-profit project a scam, Jersey.
TGF talks recapitalization with nothing to back up his theory. Swiss speaks of some debt for equity swap without the how that could be accomplished with Lehman being fully liquidated. Cotton says today "Lehman Brothers' Plan Trust is currently calculating the Stock Distributions for equity holders." Some are politely asking for more information. Politely because you want it so badly to be true. You would rater someone lie to you to give hope, instead of seeking the truth from those more experienced. And many talk about the NOLs making a distribution possible when it is well known and Lehman has said they will be fully utilized.
Jersey, it is not difficult to see what is coming if you just face up to the realty of the facts.
I think you misread what Mellowbird is saying. Perhaps you were not following the thread. He nor I think that anything we say will "change or influence" the PPS one way or another. He said; "Besides, wouldn't it be a hoot if I reach someone (with LAMCO) who says, "Yeah we are coming back all recapitalized and ready to go with $200 billion of NOLs!"
He and I would be happy for you all that are stuck with longs if that were to happen. And, you longs receive a recovery...Jersey's $5 per share at least!
And like Mellowbird, I just don't think that is going to happen. And we have attempted to explain many times why.
Lehman shelves asset management plan
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lehman/lehman-shelves-asset-management-plan-idUSTRE77G43220110817
Really! Like the link!
Boy oh boy does he distort the Brandt article and followup, and the COD as to NOLs.
Yes, not worth it.
This LAMCO is different from the US LAMCO unit. This unit was started post BK to help liquidate LBIE. It itself is now in liquidation as your link indicates. Like the LAMCO in USA it never got very far as the estate was handed over to a trustee like what happened here.
SWISS, You wrote; "This line is very deceptive. the group is not saying cod income won’t reduce the NOLS, the group here believes there will just be no COD income."
You don't understand the process. When a creditor files taxes they report the bad debt as a deduction of income and are required to file the EIN of the company that benefit of the debt that has been written off. This is considered income to Lehman in this case. The COD income is generated. It has always been a question how this COD would be treated as to the NOLs by those on the board here wrongly thinking this will not reduce NOLs.
Lehman writes this; " All remaining
Debtor NOLs not previously utilized to absorb
taxable income of the LBHI Tax Group are expected
to be fully utilized to offset income resulting from the
discharge of debt on the final date of liquidation of
LBHI"
That income resulting from discharge of debt is COD income.
Swiss, you need to stop spreading misinformation.
Here's one false statement about LAMCO.
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=141817435&txt2find=lamco
TGF, Read the modified plan. There is only one approved and court ordered plan for the future of Lehman and that is a plan that calls for full and complete liquidation.
And where do you say these executives are that are going to recapitalize and reorganize Lehman? In hiding? And why is it such a secret that only a few people on a social network trading site talking about it? Where is more recent documentation? Why are the CT shares selling for less than a penny if a recovery was seen?
Any filings prior to the final order to confirm the Modified Plan of liquidation are pretty much meaningless. The modified plan clearly lays out the future of the estate by ordering a liquidation. Anything that may be in conflict with the plan prior to the order confirming it would be null and void. Mostly "null."
The problem with TGF's excerpt is that it predates the the final approval of the modified plan that liquidates the estate. This change was requested before the creditor committee made there decision to fully liquidate the estate. Basically, it limits what they call a "substantial securityholder" transferring debt to secure equity that may lead to a change of ownership which may limit usage of NOLs. This has to be read in context to the time/date. Now it is a non-issue. Probably why TGF does not want to provide a link to the full doc. The modified plan makes reorganization, recapitalization, and debt for equity swaps impossible as it orders EVERYTHING to be liquidated down to saying if anything is left it is to be donated to a 501c3.
I did not find the exact wording but all the components in docket 6699. That was a motion. Then I looked for the proposed order to grant and it is docket #7038. I did not find where it actually was so ordered. The $48billion is also mentioned in the disclosure statement as well and the NOL issue. TGF's excerpt could possibly be found in other related documents. I got far enough in to it to understand the point he was arguing and found his conclusions not based in reality. There will be no remaining NOLs. Lehman says they themselves in the quarterly reports. And no where can you find anything about Lehman recapitalizing. TGF argues that once the liquidation is over then the recapitalization can start. He is in denial that the liquidation is full and complete and nothing will remain. The debts like the CTs which are now just a claim against the estate will be cancelled and COD notices issued. There is no exemption to COD's as TGF claims. He has yet to produce any evidence there is. The IRS is not going to let billions of dollars be wrote off on COD by creditors and let Lehman off the hook on NOLs apllied towards them.
TGF also mentioned docket 6699 like it was a big deal here;
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=169781076&txt2find=6699
and here;
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=170872299&txt2find=6699
Yes, EPIQ searches are difficult. I think the searches are limited to just the docket title.
>>>>10.2 Purpose of the Liquidating Trust. Each Liquidating Trust shall be established for the sole purpose of liquidating and distributing the assets of the Debtor contributed to such Liquidating Trust in accordance with Treas. Reg. § 301.7701-4(d), with no objective to continue or engage in the conduct of a trade or business<<<
Keep in mind before the Modified plan was finalized there was talk that something like LAMCO could survive the bankruptcy. But the creditors turned that down. They were afraid if there was a surviving entity that it would not work to maximize value to the creditors and may make decisions that would benefit LAMCO over the creditors.
You may recall years ago that LAMCO was no longer. Yet, SWISS lied to everyone on this board and said he called and talked to an employee. Later he admitted his lie but weirdly called it "sarcasm." Obviously he doesn't know the difference.
Found the document. Docket number 6699.
NOTICE OF FILING OF MOTION FOR AN ORDER
APPROVING CERTAIN RESTRICTIONS AND PROCEDURES
APPLICABLE TO TRANSFERS OF THE DEBTORS’ SECURITIES
Dated February 2010. And you are basing your recapitalization theory on this? Many unknowns at that time and the Modified court approved liquidation plan rules supersede any thing that would imply a recapitalization in the future.
2good. You still have not shown any incentive why anyone would invest in Lehman to recapitalize a new Lehman. Basically you are saying that the new Lehman is all the former shareholders and unpaid debtholders like the CTs with no current operations, employees, facilities, or money. NOLs are not capital. You can't buy anything with NOLs. NOLs are a deferred tax asset meaning that you have to have operating profits before they can be used.
You recapitalization theory make no sense at all.
And what is really weird is that no one else will publicly disagree with you on this board except for me. I would think certainly other would see the fallacy.
If I posted something I would share the link as a courtesy to those that requested one. That's how good people act. I post links more than anyone else here.
If one can not provide a source for the statement, then the statement becomes questionable.
If it is true you wouldn't have any problem proving to me, and showing to others a source for these statements.
So, it must be a lie or something you made up that you can't defend.
2good, Please provide a link or source for that statement. Searching google I can't find.
>>6. As set forth in the Motion, the Debtors estimate that, as of the date thereof,
Lehman had accrued NOLs of $48 billion. According to the Debtors, any Tax Attributes that
remain at the time of emergence from bankruptcy could prove to be of significant value to the
reorganized Debtors by reducing future U.S. federal income tax liabilities. However, the ability
of the Debtors to use the Tax Attributes to offset future taxable income is subject to certain
limitations, which are contained in Sections 382 and 383 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986
(as amended from time to time, and together with the Treasury Regulations promulgated
thereunder, the “Tax Code”). <<
What is a chapter 11 plan of liquidation?
In a chapter 11 case, a liquidating plan is permissible. Such a plan often allows the debtor in possession to liquidate the business under more economically advantageous circumstances than a chapter 7 liquidation.
Now look up Chapter 11 Liquidation.
Lol! Seemed like an easy way to end a debate that was going no where.
I guess it is normal. I do that all the time with friends and acquaintances. Back years ago I surprised another trader with a box of steaks for a stock trade he suggested. I told him if I made money on it I would send him a box of steaks. To his surprise I did. He mentioned his business in a post and I found the address and sent to him months later after the stock doubled.
This was pretty cool. About 7 years ago when I was dating I saw a picture of a gal on match sitting at her desk with a big window showing the building across the street. From that I figured out where she worked and sent her flowers with my name and asked for a date. She called and accepted and we dated about a year. We are still friends today. Neither one of us wanted to give up where we lived. I should have been a private eye! lol!
Now, don't think I asked Jersey for a date. That would be weird.
There are three types on corporate bankruptcy.
Chapter 11 - is a reorganization with the intent the company returning as a going concern.
Chapter 7 - bankruptcy upon confirmation calls for an immediate liquidation.
Chapter 11 Liquidation.- calls for assets to be liquidated over a period of time to maximize value under the control of a trustee. Technically Lehman has exited bankruptcy and is now a liquidating trust.
Yeah, but I am back with one of them. Amazing that she would take me back. At my old age probably after my money.
I have a rule. Wagers should only be made with honorable men of character. You haven't displayed that and you are just a kid that lives in your parents basement.
What is important is what was not said.
"I never recall posting under my name."
Saying one does not recall is different from an outright denial. Year's ago on yahoo I wondered who this guy was posting nonsense on a yahoo thread under his real name. Thought he was someone important. Pretty good at research so I looked him up to see if he had any credentials that would cause me to want to take him seriously. Shortly after he changed his screen name. That's the truth.
Again, why would it matter? I got his address by some means and sent him a nice note and a very nice pen. Very rare pen. I don't know if there is a better pen than one that is sent to you in kindness with compassion of heart. (jersey spews his beer on his keyboard)
The Lehman bankruptcy is a chapter 11 liquidation. It was well known that liabilities greatly exceeded assets and that the traditional preferreds and common shareholders would receive nothing. The OBS was created so ownership could not change to retain the NOLs to be used for the benefit of maximizing asset sales for the benefit of the creditors. Retaining the 51% ownership is not based solely on one buyer or seller getting more than 51% ownership. If 51% of the shares change hands the cumulative effects of a multitude of small holders could accomplish that. The judge had the legal right to make that happen to maximize the value of the liquidation.
If by any miracle all debtors were paid you still would have received your share of proceeds from the liquidation.
>>>Get a commission on each share sold but now doubled close to the exit of BK? <<
$Duxs, How do you know that there were not some here spreading hope trying to get others to buy for a commission? Certainly more incentive to get someone to buy as the shares sunk. Large owners that want to get out is certainly more credible than someone wanting to buy cheap when so many shares are available to buy at a price.
How do you you know there are not some here that want to keep the discussion going with you longs to be paid for clicks? Clickbait?
BTW, at Schwab, in the expert market you can only sell and not buy. Buying is reserved for only highly qualified buyers. So why are these buyers with their high paid analyst not even wanting to buy shares for less than a penny? You have greatly unfounded optimism.
One correction to your post, Mellow. The word "reorganization" is not in the title, nor is it written in the plan at all. The title as confirmed by the court and as filed is; "ORDER CONFIRMING MODIFIED THIRD AMENDED JOINT CHAPTER 11
PLAN OF LEHMAN BROTHERS HOLDINGS INC. AND ITS AFFILIATED DEBTORS".
Unfortunately the generic term, "POR" has been used in other documents and court discussions but you and I know it is the court filed plan that rules and orders a liquidating trust, or series of liquidating trust to liquidate the estate for the benefit of its creditors.
Fortunately I was a part of the charter membership to IHUB that for a one year membership you received a lifetime membership.
DJN, I don't understand you and others.
Why the disdain? I feel I have superior knowledge to how bankruptcies and liquidation work to everyone now posting here that see potential recovery. I am good a reading a balance sheet. I am familiar with tax code as to NOLs and cancellation of debt. If I am is disagreement with something that is said here why would I not challenge it? You do.
I am proud that I may have influenced Gus to get out near 30 cents a share. I have had a couple others thank me for comments that have kept them out of the CTs. Perhaps I had some influence in getting Mellowbird to get out. I really could have saved others $thousands here!
BTW, DJN, your signature line is childish like.
So what is so wrong with that, that it is popular here to make negative personal (often immature) comments to not only me but others that may agree with me? I know that you all are upset that your shares are now worthless. I have been correct on every projection that CTs would see a distribution for many years. You failed to listen to common sense logical explanations based on facts as to why the Cts would see no recovery. And, often challenge the word of Lehman trustees and the courts as well. Instead, you rallied around cut and paste disparate excerpts that had no relevance as to Lehman being liquidated and the CTs seeing a recovery.
Now there is talk of recapitalization, reorganization, and debt for equity swaps. You fail to understand that the Lehman bk calls for total liquidation to satisfy the creditors to the fullest extent possible. That means nothing remains and Lehman is dead. Nothing to reorganize. Nothing to recapitalize. Nothing to exchange.
I, we, may disagree with most here. But we all still deserve respect. And message boards like this should remain civil. No personal attacks. No lies about others.
Fortunately the CTs no longer trade and no one can buy and lose money. But time is also money when you could be focusing on other investments. Indeed, I am proud of my participation here to keep some from wasting money on these worthless shares, and now persuading others to see the light and move on.
So this reorganized Lehman will have;
$100 bil in NOLs
435mil shareholders
$100 bil in debt of those that have not been paid like the CTs
Sounds like a plan...oh, wait..
No business
No revenues
No Facilities
No employees
Then it is just a matter of raising cash, right? Who would invest in the above. It makes no sense. You guys that talk of recapitalization and debt for equity swaps have no business sense.