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right bepop....he obviously believes in it, but that doesn't mean he's interested in preserving wrspq. He may find it financially advantageous to do so, but who knows.
Right MGTY1.....I think we have just about all the publicly available info that's out there. I searched again today and found a new article, but it didn't say anything new, other than a copy of a nasty letter sent by the employees in India to one of the WRSPQ directors, threatening lawsuit and criminal process because they got screwed, which is to be expected actually. I go back and forth on my feeling as to what may happen.....today, I'm leaning towards Liberty junks it and walks away with assets. Just don't feel like it makes sense for Malone to keep wrspq intact. He's getting the assets cheap, because he paid little for the creditor rights in BK, so liquidating in satisfaction of the debt he now controls is probably less complicated than keeping it going. I just can't get passed closing down of India. That move doesn't add up towards keeping wrspq as going concern. but, tomorrow, I'll probably change my mind!
I don't think posting their SEC filings on their own website has any significance. There's no obligation for them to do so, since SEC publishes all that stuff on EDGAR. They probably have a few people working while in BK, and they periodically update the easy stuff (probably just to stay busy so they can justify getting paid!). Perhaps the lawyers wanted an all or none situation: either take all the SEC filings down, or make sure they are all there, so, it was probably easier just to add a few, than remove the entire investor relations/sec filings links. Just guessing, of course! who knows!
MGTY...what was posted? Looks like old SEC filings from what I can see...perhaps I'm not looking in the right place?
Right...there wouldn't be....Sirius XM has not made any announcements regarding launch of service outside U.S. and Canada. Their current satellites are not in position to do so, nor is their one remaining satellite scheduled for launch this year planned for orbit to provide service beyond U.S. and Canada. Of course, that could change, and, they could beam content off Worldspace sats, but none of that has been announced. Remember, all of this speculation is recently fueled by Mel Karmazin's off hand remark about Liberty and SIRI doing deal with WRSPQ (back in Nov). If Mel misspoke, then it's worth nothing. We just don't know. The only thing we do know is that Liberty is in this for a reason, and that most likely relates to getting content to Europe and Asia, either by using WRSPQ sats, or, perhaps just getting the licenses (because the sats are old, nearing end of life). Will it be via a resturctured WRSPQ, or, just use of the assets. Wish we knew, but we don't.
I guess they can file an action in an India court...but....I can't imagine it will mean a damn thing. Probably a last gasp attempt to try to leverage some $ out of Liberty to avoid a court case.....cheaper to throw the India employees some severance than go to court. Not a bad strategy, which will probably work, but won't save the company in India.
bepop....no universal satellite receiver. Even Sirius and XM have different receivers, except for the recent development of the 'mirge', which will receive both signals. I don't know what Worldspace uses, but, I doubt their signal is compatible with Sirius XM. However, it's mostly about beaming the same content, which can be done by sending the same content via uplink to the sats. So, in theory, if Sirius XM owned WRSPQ sats, they could provide the same content to WRSPQ ground stations for transmission.
Well, the satellites used by Sirius XM, and Worldspace, do not receive from the radio devices used by consumers, they only transmit a signal. So, they can't compete with iPhone, etc, with respect to two way data or voice. However, sat radio isn't in the biz of two way communication, so that doesn't matter. The problem Sirius XM faces is internet delivered content, like Pandora, which is said to be 'free'. Of course, it is not free. It is mostly ad supported, and has significantly less content than sirius xm. Content aside, IMHO, Sirius XM kills anything internet provided to an automobile, in terms of ease of use, and signal quality, and price. The so-called FREE Pandora via internet wireless connection to a car has to ride on a full data plan from the cell provider (AT&T, Verizon), and that ain't cheap!
good points....but I guess that's the argument that would transpire in every Ch 11. So, does it mean that secured creditors are ALWAYS forced to take a major haircut in BK proceeding and permit the company to emerge from BK intact and operating? Probably not. The question is how often does that occur, AND, when it does occur, how often are common shares preserved? The ONLY thing that would preserve common shares would be high NOLs. So, we have that in our corner most likely. But, that only means something if Liberty wants, agrees, or BK judge forces, the company to emerge intact. I'm hoping yes, but it's a long shot I think. We have to ask ourselves, "what's in it for Liberty for an intact wrspq?" The NOLs can't be used by Liberty itself, and, they have no value if Liberty takes majority ownership.
MGTY...I couldn't really understand what they were saying, and all those revolving graphics gave me a headache. 3 advil please.
No, I don't think it is relevant to wrspq, since Liberty doesn't control SIRI, they own 40%, and can't make a move there for a while (there's a 3 yr standstill agreement, I think). With wrspq, Liberty owns the debt, so, is largest and most powerful outside interest (creditor) in BK proceedings, but, BK laws control what they can and can't do. They could demand a huge stake in the company and keep it operational (good for us!), or, argue the thing can't make it as a going concern, and force it into liquidation, to take the assets as satisifaction of debt, which they in turn could do with as they please. All subject to what the BK judge decides, of course. IMHO. I reported back on this only to indicate the wrspq issue vis a vis Liberty was not even on the radar at this conference, meaning the analysts present, and Maffei, didn't raise any discussion/questions regarding the current situation. Don't think one can read anything into this, other than it's not a huge issue for Wall Street analysts.
I just listened to Liberty CEO, Greg Maffei's presentation at Citi Annual Media and Entertainment conference (recorded from yesterday). Very positive about Sirius XM, but no mention of Worldspace, either by Maffei or by audience asking questions. Questions on SIRI covered NOLs, and Maffei said that Liberty probably wouldn't benefit from them because SIRI will be very profitable and use the NOLs on their own before Liberty increased its stake, if it decides to do so.
Interesting comments.....I think the gov't of India has very little to say, other than provide an incentive for Liberty to provide service there. At best, they could seize the local assets, but what's that amount to? Do we know? If Liberty has other biz interests in India, they could be touched by the gov't, but do they? I suppose the gov't of India could file suit here in Fed court, but, that would be removed to BK court based on the orders just renewed, unless they sued Libety and/or Malone directly, an unlikely event.
ok, some of this is starting to make sense......Liberty would NOT want to risk investing in India due to India gov't propensity to deny previous attempts by wrspq to expand its biz there, and the potential regulatory hurdles/walls which the India gov't is inclined to impose on foreign companies. So, Liberty says "shut it down" and remove it from restructure planning. Now the question is this....can the satellite which is beaming to India be repositioned to another geographical location? I don't know the technology details to even hazard a guess. And, hopefully, the India company does NOT own either of the two satellites. If that is true, then this whole thing is starting to become more clear to me.
Interesting article MGTY......I wish I knew the procedures required by India law that the complainants refer to. And, I wish I understood how the India subsidiary relationship to wrspq affects BK proceedings. But I don't have a clue.
Good one...yup....let's hope very far away.
with respect to Noah and Malone.....the old saying comes to mind...paraphrasing here...."when elephants fight, only the grass gets trampled"....we, my friends, are the grass. (:
I think this notion of an extension is being taken too seriously as a sign of protracted restructure. If I read the docs correctly, it appears to be a standard request that any lawsuits filed in Fed court against WRSPQ be removed to BK court. They are simply looking to extend this provision in case this isn't concluded soon. That would prevent someone (a creditor) from jumping in at the last minute and filing suit in Fed district court and tying up the process outside of BK court. This precludes that, although, the doc says it wouldn't preclude a filing in state court. However, I imagine, a state filing would probably go nowhere. I view it as procedural and nothing more, in case this isn't concluded by the expiration of the current removal order.
MGTY...right...but if worldspace doesn't own a technology, no need for them in order for Liberty to play with others (Delphi, Fiat, etc). The only things of value are items they actually own: sats, ground stuff, content agreements (which may be null and void in BK), and licenses. What surprised me was the cutting loose of all the subscribers they had in India. That doesn't bode well for option B. I sure hope I'm wrong! And, that wouldn't be a surprise! (:
MGTY...interesting...what technology is Worldspace a leader? They are running very old satellites. I think Sirius XM is way ahead. I think this is about the spectrum licenses, nothing more. I kinda hope I'm wrong, because they can probably get the licenses by liquidating I think. It might be cheaper for Malone to pay off the other creditors a little more than they'd get in a Chapter 7, then they drop out of the picture, leaving Liberty to structure something. Is it a)liquidate and own the hardware and licenses, or b) restructure wrspq into a going concern and use the NOLs and hook up with Sirius XM. Let's hope for choice B!
Here's the deal, the way I see it. There are no MMs in this stock, so no one is manipulating anything. There are not a lot of buyers, so even if you wanted to dump it, there would be very few looking to buy. That keeps the price where it is. With pink sheet stocks, MMs not obligated to buy up shares as they are on NASDAQ or NYSE. So, if you or anyone issued a sell order now for, say, 500k shares at .025,all or none, who would buy it? Probably no one. Anyone looking to get out now, has to sell in small pieces at tiny increments in price to find a buyer. There's no one making a market in this stock, so, it ain't easy to just dump the stock. I think this keeps the price hovering where it is. IMHO.
MGTY...I don't think so....it looks like he took common shares for the $20M, so he's at risk. Doubt he could recoup unless all common shares kept intact. Does Malone care about Noah? No clue. But, let's say he did, and wanted to help the guy...he could give him shares in the newco or in Liberty or some other deal, rather than preserve all the common shares, should he decide it is better for Liberty to liquidate WRSPQ. As far as preferred shares, which I mentioned, I was referring to a future issue of preferred shares as part of restructure, which Liberty might take as part of the security interest for the debt they now own. As long as the preferred shares don't cause a shift to majority ownership for Liberty, the NOLs are preserved (similar to how Liberty structured the deal with SIRI, although that was not a BK deal as you know). I don't know if there are any preferred shares currently.
Brokeashell......agreed. Not sure about the worth of two of three of the sats though. These orbiting sats are old and nearing end of life. The one in storgage has value though. I think the spectrum licenses are probably the most valuable asset. This is a strange situtation. I would have expected the India operation to be worth a lot (operating, with subscribers and growth), but obviously that's not the case. So, I don't know what to make of all of this. It's kinda weird actually.
MGTY..sorry for lengthy reply....forgot to comment on your Ch 7 reference...
Just because a company files for Ch 11, doesn't mean they entitled to restructure and continue. It's all about the creditors and their confidence that they will be made whole and make money in a restructured, operating company. It may only take one large creditor to put the fly in the ointment and force liquidation. If the creditors think the company can't operate profitably, they may force liquidation. I don't have the stats, but I would guess that a large number of Ch 11s don't end up with a good outcome for employees and shareholders. It's a company's last gasp at life, sometimes it works, many times it doesn't. I hope we survive to fight another day.
MGTY....Chapter 11 is an avenue for restructuring, but is not a guarantee in any way for common shareholders, regardless of their investment. Look at GM. The common shareholders pre-BK were wiped out....zero...zilch....nothing. They issued new shares post BK. In most BK cases, that's what happens...shareholders get screwed because they are unsecured creditors. It's high risk/high reward game. Secured lenders, then bond holders, then preferred shares, then everyone else, including common shares. And, since liabilities almost always exceed assets, there's nothing left as part of the restructure, and common shares wiped out. The ONLY hope here is the preservation of NOLs. Can't wipe out shareholders and preserve NOLs (Liberty would have to maintain a minority ownership to preserve the NOLs). I know I'm oversimplifying because that's all I know...but...don't think for one minute that the BK process will protect common shareholders, because it won't. It's about equitable distribution/deal related to secured creditors. Liberty paid cents on the dollar to the 'old' creditors to attain their 'rights' in BK court. So, now they own the debt and call the shots. If the NOLs aren't significant enough to Malone, we are scorched. Keep in mind, unless he owns a ton of common stock, a rising stock price for WRSPQ is NOT in his best interest. So, NOLs have to be very high to outweigh the projected rise in market cap that would follow a restructure plan that would keep the common intact. Malone wouldn't want his stake to be dwarfed by common shareholders, would he? So, high NOLs, issue of preferred convertible to common, etc, would have to be the new deal to keep us alive here. IMHO.
There are no MMs touching this stock. It's tanking because of India shutdown news. I'm hoping with such a small amount of float, preserving the NOLs will override the liability of keeping the common shares intact. But at this point, it's definitely a Vegas play....watch that roulette wheel folks and hope.
Yup, holding the hand I've been dealt. We'll soon see the flop card. Let's hope it completes the straight flush!
Yeah, for sure. I've decided to stay in the game to see what happens. It's a long shot, like a 50:1 bet at the Kentucky Derby, but worth it for the excitement! (:
At this point, it's all about the NOLs and whether their value is high enough to keep the company intact as it emerges from BK. With India closed as of Dec 31, there's nothing to WRSPQ but hard assets and spectrum licenses. And, the hard assets include two old satellites nearing end of life, which means they are almost fully depreciated, leaving the 'new' unused satellite in storage as a useful asset. NOLs are the key.
MGTY....well, an announcement related to capital for WRSPQ in early Nov, probably doesn't mean much now. As far as puts and calls with deliverable dates, that doesn't mean anything with respect to BK outcome either. If shares end up worthless, no matter there. As far as using the NOLs, I'm no CPA either, but, I believe as long as IRS rules are met, they are usable as long as WRSPQ stays intact, but, this means that Liberty can't become the majority owner. This, of course, would be good for shareholders, but, the question is, is the value of the NOLs substantial enough for Liberty to maintain WRSPQ. Now, as far as India not being part of the BK, I believe that simply means India subsidiary is not protected from its creditors. Shutting it down doesn't change the fact that it (what remains of it) remains an asset of WRSPQ and part of the BK process with respect to disposition of all of WRSPQ's assets. Obviously, if India shuts down, its asset value drops, which, lowers WRSPQ asset value in turn. What are the liabilities against India subsidiary? If under India law, the liabilities go away from India sub (do they?), then perhaps that explains why Liberty wants to shut it down.....wipe out liabilities in India by throwing the 'off' switch. But I have no idea if that's how it might work in India. It's not logical, to me however, why they would shut it down and alienate that market if they wanted to continue the company.
MGTY....the 'bridge financing' quote you mention...is that recent, or is that from weeks/months ago? If it is recent, then the closing of India operation makes no sense. If it is an old quote, then it is irrelvant now, because wasn't that capital provided a while ago, and now, gone?
Only potential for keeping WRSPQ intact, absent an operating India service, might be to preserve the NOLs. I hope that's the case.
MGTY...what European launch, and by who? Who would pay for that? I think some realism needs to be baked in here.....if Liberty was going to continue WRSPQ as a going concern, it would never let the Indian business close. Why would it throw away an existing customer base, and destroy the Wordspace name in India? By stranding all of their subscribers, the brand has no future value. The article says India operation is closing as of this Thursday. Unless Liberty rides in with fresh capital for India, and forestalls that negative event between now and then, it's over. Perhaps they will. As I said in last post, this threatened closing of India could be a tactic by Samara to force Malone to do something now. I hope so. Should Malone make that move, then it would be an indicator of his intention to continue WRSPQ. Unfortunately, an unlikely scenario, IMHO.
Unfortunately, I think it's game over folks. India shut down is NOT a good sign for continuing Worldspace as an entity. The shutdown has nothing to do with India government lack of satellite policy. It's about not having operating capital. It appears, IMHO, that Liberty is getting the hard assets at fire sale price, and that's it. Unlikely that common shares will survive. I sure hope I'm wrong. The only hope is that this is a tactic by Samara to try to exercise some leverage, but I think that theory is a big stretch.
Yes, SIRI going to trade like this until mid to late January, then move up a lot anticipating the release of Q4 and full year earnings in early Feb. And WRSPQ going to do the same awaiting news, hopefully positive for shareholders. SIRI much safer bet though (although, the word 'safe' on a penny stock is really an oxymoron) (:
I've also noticed there's plenty of outdated content on the corporate site, e.g., Nelson Mandela's birthday celebration is worded as an announcement for the future, but it is dated from 2008. There's a lot of stuff like that, which shows no one is maintaining the website with any kind of care. That makes sense considering there's no employees being paid. However, the India website seems pretty current....that's good.
MGTY....I'm not sure I follow this about UPOP. Am I missing something here?
On the positive side, I did see on Worldspace India site that they have a Holly channel for the holidays, so that's a current offering.
MGTY...Just a message board, no? I don't see anything new. One poster reiterates the "news" (conjecture) that Indian operation may shut down, and another poster agrees. Am I missing something?
Bepop....I don't think so. The value would be to keep Worldspace India operations running...to keep the customers. If that operation shuts down, that's a very bad sign IMHO. That would seem to point to Liberty wanting ONLY the hard assets, including the spectrum licenses, not wanting to spend $ on the company's existing operations. One other way to look at the news is this...Samara could be trying to leverage Liberty to wrap this up and buy the company outright, or infuse more cash for operations now, OR....he shuts down India because he has no $ to pay anyone. If Liberty has a view towards keeping current customers, they will have to do something quickly....infuse cash, or buy it.
Yes, that's very true! The press hates SIRI.
Perhaps...but this company is really small and in BK, so, unless Liberty or SIRI mentioned in U.S. press, I doubt anyone pays attention. I mean, the sp is actually up....so....no way it's based on that news. You are probably the only one in the western world that picked it up! (: