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no. Liberty purchased the debt from original creditors as part of the BK, so they are the largest creditor, which gives them most, if not all, of the leverage in BK proceedings. They have none of the other liabilities of WRSPQ unless they convert the debt into a deal where they own the company, or, they could try to force liquidation. It all comes down to the value of the NOLs. If Liberty wants to preserve them for future use, they must keep the company intact. Liberty Satellite, to my knowledge, has no operations...it's merely a corporate shell, which is positioned to be the vehicle for dealing with SIRI and WRSPQ.
ok bepop.... I wasn't suggesting worldspace would buy Liberty......just might roll Liberty Satellite subsid under worldspace, since Liberty Sat is just a shell really. I'm not sure Liberty wants direct ownership of Sirius XM or Worldspace, but does want major stake. Keep in mind there are regulatory problems with owning too much media in one sector. They spun off DirecTV, but still have stake. So, it makes sense to me that they get stake in sat radio too, but don't own it all outright. Either way though, WE WIN!
bepop...It's different than the article in this case, because Liberty is already public company, BUT, I think it is very possible to see Worldspace name stick around since it's known in Asia, etc. And, again, to beat the drum, if NOLs have high value to Malone, he has to keep wrspq intact.
Skivail.....buying any stock of a bankrupt co is high risk, as you know. All of us on this board are optimistic our shares will survive..but..the risk is VERY REAL. Remember what happened recently to GM shareholders? wiped out. That's a frequent outcome of BK, even a restructure. With GM, the existing stock was wiped out, and then the restructured company issued new shares. That is not unusual. There is a good summary of what can happen in BK on SEC's website, and I think someone on this board provided the summary and the link. Suggest you take a look at that. Good luck!
Magnumbp...LOL! that's funny!
I have made a lot of $ on SIRI in the past year, and I'm still very hopeful of bigger things to come. I do believe wrspq will emerge and shareholders rewarded. I think the NOLs will be enough to keep the common alive and preserve ownership % intact. The float is so low in wrspq, it really is chump change to NOT kill the common shares. But, what do I know? Not much! Just being optimistic.
Yeah, this is good stuff. Keep in mind that Brandon Matthews, the source of much of this big picture speculation, is very active in pumping SIRI stock. Don't get me wrong...I agree with a lot of what he says most of the time, but, just sayin'...Brandon's opinion is not hard news..so DYIDD. I do think the worldspace-sxm-liberty alignment makes sense. As I've said previously, whether common shares in wrspq survive is all about the value of the NOLs from Malone's perspective. That's the key.
MGTY is the guy with the big $ invested....I have over 100k shares, but I bought them dirt cheap, so total $ invested is small. So, I'm long and will stick with it to see what happens. I am optimistic.
Well, I think this is just about Liberty lending more $ to WRSPQ. And, the 'final hearing' for March 5 seems to be about a formal final approval of the DIP financing agreement and nothing more. I don't see any mention of a restructuring plan being presented at this 'final hearing'. The only mention of restructure is in the context of the financing and when DIP finance extension is effective, in other words, on X date unless there is a restructure plan approved prior to X. That's just legalese, as that language has been used over and over in these recent orders. My take on this is that there's nothing in these documents indicating what or when, restructuring will occur, BUT....it is certainly good news that Liberty is continuing to lend them $. If they were simply going to liquidate, why keep dumping $ into it? However...let's not forget that short of liquidation, even a restructure may not preserve existing common shares. That element is all about the NOLs. If Malone thinks the NOLs outweigh other costs...we win. Let's hope that's the case. Just sayin'.
SIRI conf call to release earnings, 8am, Feb 25.
Right, other than setting 'final hearing' date to March 5....hmmmm...my wife's birthday! Could be a great day! So, do we think that 'final hearing' actually means the potential for BK judge approval of the restructuring plan? I'm not sure that 'final hearing' is necessarily synonymous with that, but it seems to be. That date will be either just following, or perhaps even the same day, as SIRI cc to release full year earnings. No date yet set for that, other than 'end of feb'; however, there's been some speculation that Mel my hold off till around March 4 or so, since that's when SIRI could have achieved 10 straight days of trading above $1 per nasdaq reqmt.
MGTY....thanks for the info. You mentioned the reorg deadline date was extended to June, and, you are referring to 'the motion' as the final hearing. Interesting. So, you are saying you believe the reorg plan is coming today? I hope so, but I'm thinking today may be just more routine approval of DIP financing extension, which as the agenda states, is uncontested.
Garcia's piece states that a hearing is scheduled for feb 18 which may be the final hearing. He wrote this article today..the day SIRI broke $1. So, this Thursday (tomorrow) could be it.
I don't think it works that way on the pink sheets where there's no real MM. If there are no shareholders out there with sell orders, there's no shares to buy. I think that's why all the stuff you read which warns about pink sheet trading basically says that: you may not be able to buy or sell when you want to because there's no one making a market in the stock. You are totally dependent on someone wishing to buy or sell on their own. No buyer or seller out there at the time you want to execute a trade, your trade will not be executed. That's not the case with nasdaq or nyse, etc. The MMs have obligations to keep the market fluid in their stocks. IMHO....I think that's why.
Yes, I agree. SIRI on the move and the auto industry on the rebound will pull it along further. all good!
I am as hopeful as everyone, but I'm afraid I'm not seeing any hidden meaning here. The 13Gs are required by law, and relate to shares issued last year. As far as I can see, there's nothing new right now. The latest bit of news, from my view, is the extension of DIP financing with Liberty, which is a very good sign. But that was announced via BK court filing a few weeks ago , and was the agenda item for today's hearing, which was cancelled. Other than that, I'm not seeing anything else, good, or bad. Assuming the DIP financing happens, then I think we're in good shape for a restructure and continuation of wrspq shares. IMHO, of course.
Yeah, these 13Gs don't mean anything. I just researched it. They are required by SEC as report on beneficial ownership within certain time after buying the shares. Both companies that reported recently were already known as large institutional investors. I don't think there's any news yet on the Liberty-WRSPQ BK plan/deal. I don't think today's scheduled, then cancelled, hearing had anything new either.....but...who knows!
that would be great. I've read the document several times, and I think it means the request for more financing is approved by the court, and therefore no need to have the hearing, but not sure. It may just be a very routine thing. The addtl financing is a good sign, but that is old news now. So, not sure if this court document means much, but I really don't know.
good find, but not sure what it means.
SIRI is all green, hit 52 week high, but retraced some. Nice to see wrspq green as well.
Question....what's all the noise about today's hearing in BK court? The agenda info looked routine to me. What am I missing? Are there indicators a BK final plan is to be released? thanks!
Oh yeah....I'm holding both siri and wrspq...and ford. so far, so good!
"They" don't run out of shares to sell. It's shareholders deciding whether or not they want to sell, based on prospective buyers. There's no market makers on the pink sheets, so, if no one is selling, the only way to get shares is to offer high price to entice a seller. Some good news would cause that to happen. Without news, those with shares are holding, gambling on some news to happen soon. And, even if a shareholder decided to test the waters and offer shares for a high price, it's doubtful anyone would buy. So, the sp sits where it is. I mean who the hell is selling 900 shares at 4 cents? Someone testing the waters to see what happens.
yes, certainly has been good relationship for SIRI.....and I'm glad I bought a lot of that stock early last year. It would be great for a homerun with wrspq too!
No, I don't think Feb 1 is the magic date due to this court doc. It looks like standard legalese for the extension of DIP financing, where it says the order is effective on the earliest of one of the following three things, one of which is Feb 1, and the others have no date, including a reorg plan. I think that just means that should a plan be accepted PRIOR to Feb 1, it would supercede the DIP arrangements, but if there is no plan, Feb 1 is the date for the DIP arrangement. That makes sense, as if a reorg was approved, the DIP financing would no longer be treated as a DIP deal, because other arrangements, via a reorg, would occur. Just sayin'.
However, the good news is that Liberty is continuing to lend money, so, that would support a reorg as opposed to a liquidation. imho.
The NOLs may save the day here. Liberty probably wouldn't put a turnaround guy in the middle of this if they were going to liquidate. Now, they could emerge from ch 11 and not liquidate, but in order to keep the NOL value for the future, they can't give majority ownership to Liberty. So, keep the small amount of common intact, issued preferred stock to Liberty, and keep on truckin'!!! Yeah! That's the ticket! (:
more to digest...note who has interest in NTL, which is one of Schmitz turnaround successes.....
Now the leader in the UK cable field, NTL is out of the bankrupt holding cell where it once dwelled. The one-time subsidiary of NTL Europe (formerly known as NTL, Inc., confusingly) emerged with new management and a new structure. With more than 3 million cable subscribers, NTL has become the UK's #1 cable TV operator, having acquired the residential cable business of Cable & Wireless Communications, among other assets. Besides cable TV, NTL also provides telephone, data, and Internet services to residential and corporate customers. John Malone's Liberty Media International owns about 8% of the company. In a long expected move, NTL has announced plans to be acquired by Telewest in a deal worth about $6 billion
ok guys....chew on this one for a while:
http://www.qtadvisors.com/pro-rschmitz.html
This is the guy that is being paid $90k/month to run WRSPQ now as the 'turnaround' guy. There's a filing with BK court showing his expenses as paid 90k for November. Check out his resume on the above link. So, that could be good news....to emerge from ch 11...
great find bepop! do you have date of the filing?
I agree MGTY. You can't daytrade this stock obviously, so "long" it is at this point. Any bit of hard news will move it, one way or the other. We are all betting on good news, so, we wait.
MGTY...interesting....the more large institutional investors, the better our chances in BK proceedings. Doubt Liberty will give a darn about Samara or individual investors, but may not want to burn the big boys if it can be avoided. Just Sayin'. (:
MGTY...what news is leaking? I haven't heard a peep about worldspace.
Good question.....with so few shares outstanding, guessing it could spike pretty high.....perhaps a buck or more, and then settle somewhere to half that...but...who knows....i sure don't! There's a BIG incentive for Liberty and SIRI to get SIRI sp to over a buck very soon, to avoid delisting. I kinda like those odds of forcing this WRSPQ situation to a head. I think a restructured wrspq wrapped up in a global deal with Liberty and SIRI would have strong appeal to the street....I like that scenario and remain optimistic for some good news soon. SIRI over a dollar, with wrspq close behind....awesome! long shot still, but has potential!
I doubt SIRI will announce anything related to global service or anything about worldspace. The last siri satellite was launched to provide better service to North America by providing better penetration of the signal to help with receiving signals when traveling along tree lined routes, etc. Could one of their sats be repositioned to cover Europe? I don't know if that's feasible...I don't know enough about satellite orbits to comment. Liberty will make announcement eventually, or perhaps worldspace itself if Liberty permits it to emerge as a going concern. One thing that could be helpful is SIRI needs to get SP over a buck, and the preliminary financial announcement yesterday was designed to do just that. It was not typical of them to do that. So, they may make a few more announcements over the next month to bump the stock up before the March deadline for nasdaq delisting. A Liberty/wrspq deal with SIRI would accomplish that. Let's hope!
bepop....not when they're fully depreciated. They're probably already written off. So, I don't know the rules around a satellite, in terms of how long it is to be depreciated, but, considering that they last only 15 years or so, I'll bet these things are already fully depreciated and have no effect whatsover on the wrspq financials going forward. Now, if Liberty were to liquidate worldspace, then the sats may have value for depreciation, but I don't know...not an accountant. But, of course, that situation would suck for us, as wrspq would be gone.
Right...old sats not worth much. The capex to replace them is huge. The one in the shed has significant value, even though it probably needs some work (older technology). I think it's all about the spectrum licenses, and a certain amount of value left in sats and the ground systems to support them. Does WRSPQ hold any high tech patents? That would also be valuable if they are relevant and leading edge. However, Liberty will get all those assets via liquidation, and if they restructure, would get control of them, though not outright ownership.
Not sure option dates are material. I doubt BK judge cares about that stuff.
Yeah..I think we're at the 'wait and see' point. It's too complex to figure out and all of the facts are not in the public domain, and, I doubt they will surface in advance of the final deal. If the people in India knew the details, they'd be splashed all over the news there, but obviously they don't have a clue.
That's the part I can't figure out. I guess it would take the expertise of a BK attorney who knew the facts and structure of the companies to give a meaningful opinion as to why India was closed and what the likely scenario is going forward. I have no clue as to how closing a seemingly viable operation in India benefits a restructured WRSPQ. There's obviously a good reason for it, but I don't have the knowledge to understand it.
BTOhio...good link. Liberty does get the benefit of Sirius XM NOLs by having such a large stake (40%) in the company. That's why they can't have a larger stake, to avoid having change in ownership which would kill the NOLs (per the article from your link). With the NOLs, SIRI is more valuable as it cleans up its balance sheet and becomes profitable, with those NOLs kicking in to cut taxes. This benefits all the stakeholders in SIRI, especially Liberty. So, the NOL situtation at SIRI is not related to the potential NOL situation at WRSPQ. Your comments about international experience within WRSPQ and its value makes sense, however, a liquidated WRSPQ doesn't preclude Liberty from hiring that expertise under a different company. And, if there were patents involved, owned by WRSPQ, they are assets which would be owned by Liberty as part of liquidation. This is strictly about what is the best financial move for Malone, and IMHO, it's now ONLY about the NOLs (since India operation was abruptly shut down). Are they worth preserving? What's the least expensive way forward for Liberty? Remember, they get the assets one way or the other, so, their value is not part of the equation. Actually, by keeping WRSPQ, Liberty would technically be sharing the value of the assets with common shareholders. Does NOL value offset that? Perhaps. I sure hope so!
MGTY1....I have not been following this stock until recently, when I bought in just following Mel's famous comments. With respect to contracts, there is usually a clause in most that cancels or otherwise changes contracts if firms go into BK. However, if wrspq were to be liquidated, the contracts would probably be null and void. But, that doesn't mean Malone couldn't establish new contracts with those entities. You bring up good point, in that the cost of renegotiating those contracts would be a factor in Liberty decisions, assuming the contracts are worthy of preserving. Lots of variables in the mix here. Comments regarding NOLs are all relevant. The NOLs have value if the future plan would be to structure the company as to funnel much of the profit through it so they could offset taxable income with the NOLs. So, let's say Liberty/Sirius XM launches global service via a partnership with WRSPQ, with all the revenue from it washing thru WRSPQ. WRSPQ NOLs would be used there. WRSPQ would pay Sirius XM for services, and Liberty would make $ via ownership stake (probably via preferred shares or bonds). That scenario makes sense to me. The only fly in the ointment, though, is the closing down of India. That still troubles me as inexplicable with the facts we have at hand.