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I don't think that the question of whether we should have recruited Nazi scientists helps us decide what to do about human cloning.
By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Without firing a shot, American forces captured a bearded and haggard-looking Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) in an underground hide-out on a farm near his hometown of Tikrit, ending one of the most intensive manhunts in history. The arrest was a huge victory for U.S. forces battling an insurgency by the ousted dictator's followers.
"Ladies and gentlemen, we got him," U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer told a news conference Sunday, eight months after American troops swept into Baghdad and toppled Saddam's regime.
"The tyrant is a prisoner."
In the capital, radio stations played celebratory music, residents fired small arms in the air in celebration and passengers on buses and trucks shouted, "They got Saddam! They got Saddam!"
Washington hopes Saddam's capture will help break the organized Iraq (news - web sites) resistance that has killed more than 190 American soldiers since President Bush (news - web sites) declared major combat over on May 1 and has set back efforts at reconstruction. U.S. commanders have said that while in hiding Saddam played some role in the guerrilla campaign blamed on his followers.
In the latest attack, a suspected suicide bomber detonated explosives in a car outside a police station Sunday morning west of Baghdad, killing at least 17 people and wounding 33 more, the U.S. military said.
Saddam was one of the most-wanted fugitives in the world, along with Osama bin Laden (news - web sites), the leader of the al-Qaida terrorist network who has not been caught despite a manhunt since November 2001, when the Taliban regime was overthrown in Afghanistan (news - web sites).
Saddam was captured at 8:30 p.m. Saturday in a walled farm compound in Adwar, a town 10 miles from Tikrit, said Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. military commander in Iraq. The cellar was little more than a specially prepared "spider hole" with just enough space to lie down. Bricks and dirt camouflaged the entrance.
A Pentagon (news - web sites) diagram showed the hiding place as a 6-foot-deep vertical tunnel, with a shorter tunnel branching out horizontally from one side. A pipe to the concrete surface at ground level provided air. The entrance to the hide-out was under the floor of a small, walled compound with a room in one corner and a lean-to attached to the room. The tunnel was roughly in the middle of the compound.
A U.S. defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Saddam admitted his identity when captured.
Sanchez, who saw Saddam overnight, said the deposed leader "has been cooperative and is talkative." He described Saddam as "a tired man, a man resigned to his fate."
"He was unrepentant and defiant," said Adel Abdel-Mahdi, a senior official of a Shiite Muslim political party who, along with other Iraqi leaders, visited Saddam in captivity.
"When we told him, 'If you go to the streets now, you will see the people celebrating,'" Abdel-Mahdi said. "He answered, 'Those are mobs.' When we told him about the mass graves, he replied, 'Those are thieves.'"
The official added: "He didn't seem apologetic. He seemed defiant, trying to find excuses for the crimes in the same way he did in the past."
The White House said Saddam's capture assures the Iraqi people that the deposed leader is gone from power for good.
"The Iraqi people can finally be assured that Saddam Hussein will not be coming back — they can see it for themselves," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.
Bush planned a midday address to the nation on the capture, McClellan said.
Eager to give Iraqis evidence that the elusive former dictator had indeed been captured, Sanchez played a video at the news conference showing the 66-year-old Saddam in custody.
Saddam, with a thick, graying beard and bushy, disheveled hair, was seen as doctor examined him, holding his mouth open with a tongue depressor, apparently to get a DNA sample. Saddam touched his beard during the exam. Then the video showed a picture of Saddam after he was shaved, juxtaposed for comparison with an old photo of the Iraqi leader while in power.
Iraqi journalists in the audience stood, pointed and shouted "Death to Saddam!" and "Down with Saddam!"
Though the raid occurred Saturday afternoon American time, U.S. officials went to great length to keep it quiet until medical tests and DNA testing confirmed Saddam's identity.
DNA tests confirmed Saddam's identity, said the president of Iraqi Governing Council, Abdel-Aziz al-Hakim.
Saddam was being held at an undisclosed location, and U.S. authorities have not yet determined whether to hand him over to the Iraqis for trial or what is status would be. Iraqi officials want him to stand trial before a war crimes tribunal created last week.
Amnesty International said Sunday that Saddam should be given POW status and allowed visits by the international Red Cross.
Ahmad Chalabi, a member of Iraq's Governing Council, said Sunday that Saddam will be put on trial.
"Saddam will stand a public trial so that the Iraqi people will know his crimes," said Chalabi told Al-Iraqiya, a Pentagon-funded TV station.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) hailed the capture, saying the deposed leader "has gone from power, he won't be coming back."
"Where his rule meant terror and division and brutality, let his capture bring about unity, reconciliation and peace between all the people of Iraq," Blair said in brief comments at his 10 Downing St. office.
In Tikrit, U.S. soldiers lit cigars after hearing the news.
Some 600 troops from the 4th Infantry Division along with Special Forces captured Saddam, the U.S. military said. There were no shots fired or injuries in the raid, called "Operation Red Dawn," Sanchez said.
Two men "affiliated with Saddam Hussein" were detained with him, and soldiers confiscated two Kalashnikov rifles, a pistol, a taxi and $750,000 in $100 bills, Sanchez said. The two men were "fairly insignificant" regime figures, a U.S. defense official said.
Celebratory gunfire erupted in the capital, and shop owners closed their doors, fearful that the shooting would make the streets unsafe.
"I'm very happy for the Iraqi people. Life is going to be safer now," said 35-year-old Yehya Hassan, a resident of Baghdad. "Now we can start a new beginning."
Earlier in the day, rumors of the capture sent people streaming into the streets of Kirkuk, a northern Iraqi city, firing guns in the air in celebration.
"We are celebrating like it's a wedding," said Kirkuk resident Mustapha Sheriff. "We are finally rid of that criminal."
"This is the joy of a lifetime," said Ali Al-Bashiri, another resident. "I am speaking on behalf of all the people that suffered under his rule."
Despite the celebration throughout Baghdad, many residents were skeptical.
"I heard the news, but I'll believe it when I see it," said Mohaned al-Hasaji, 33. "They need to show us that they really have him."
Ayet Bassem, 24, walked out of a shop with her 6-year-old son.
"Things will be better for my son," she said. "Everyone says everything will be better when Saddam is caught. My son now has a future."
After invading Iraq on March 20 and setting up their headquarters in Saddam's sprawling Republican Palace compound in Baghdad, U.S. troops launched a massive manhunt for the fugitive (news - Y! TV) leader, placing a $25 million bounty on his head and sending thousands of soldiers to search for him.
Saddam proved elusive during the war, when at least two dramatic military strikes came up empty in their efforts to assassinate him. Since then, he has appeared in both video and audio tapes. U.S. officials named him No. 1 on their list of 55 most-wanted Iraqis, the Ace of Spades in a special deck of most-wanted cards.
Saddam's capture leaves 13 figures still at large from the list. The highest ranking figure among them is Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, a close Saddam aide who U.S. officials have said may be directly organizing resistance.
U.S. forces had indicated they did not think Saddam would be captured alive.
Saddam's sons Qusai and Odai — each with a $15 million bounty on their heads — were killed July 22 in a four-hour gunbattle with U.S. troops in a hideout in the northern city of Mosul. The bounties were paid out to the man who owned the house where they were killed, residents said.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/iraq_saddam
"Are you assuming that I am for banning Human cloning?"
It sounded like you were, but the reason I asked you what the Nazi eugenics experiments had to do with banning human cloning is that when you brought up them up, I assumed it had something to do with what we were discussing. If you were trying to change the subject, that was not clear.
"I would sure like to live in a non nuclear world."
I don't see how living in a nuclear world could have been avoided.
"Do you see no problem at all with the American scientific establishment welcoming Nazi 'scientists' that lent their 'scientific' credentials to the racist policies of the Third Reich.?"
I think it's really pointless to second-guess decisions that were made sixty years ago.
"However as most of the public believed the story about Dolly and I assume still do, It WOULD be good raw material for a raw army."
You obviously are much better informed than you came across at first. Why feed the public's ill-informed nightmares? The trouble with BSing the public is that, sooner or later, they find out.
"If they were born on an Island and raised by a government think tank, well I guess they would beholden to them but somehow that is not the same to me as people born in my neighborhood."
Cloning is not the enabling technology here. The method of raising the children is. Children in the Middle East are already being raised to be human bombs. None of them are clones.
"However, people knew of Ceaucescu's orphan army. If they were cloned no one would necessarily know they existed."
If we had the technology to bring babies to term in vitro, maybe, but that does not depend on cloning. All they would have to do is collect excess sperm and eggs from fertility clinics. No matter how they did it I seriously doubt it could be kept secret. It takes a lot of resources to raise an army of children, and global communication is getting better all the time.
"Many of the top scientists involved in that branch of Nazi 'science' came to the states and continued their research as did Von Brown."
What does that have to do with the reasons for banning human cloning? The Nazis were working on nuclear weapons too. Should we have avoided becoming a nuclear power because the Nazis were working on it? Should we have abandoned our rocket program for the same reason?
I really think that feeding the public's hysteria on this is a bad idea. Better to tell them what the real problems are.
I've done a little more reading, and you're right about cloned offspring being sickly:
http://www.nature.com/nsu/030217/030217-6.html
That certainly doesn't sound like the raw material for an effective army, but I would agree that the health and longevity issues are enough to justify ethical objections to human cloning for the purpose of bringing a fetus to term.
The other reasons you gave don't really hold water. Dolly was born to a surrogate sheep mother, as stated in the article linked below.
http://www.fda.gov/cber/genetherapy/clone.htm
If the concern is babies without parents, then bringing babies to term in vitro should be banned. I seriously doubt that we have the technology to do it anyway. It would certainly be going about it the hard way; the problems would be huge. Even if we had the technology, banning cloning would not be enough, because people could get around it by using traditional in vitro fertilization techniques.
Why would cloned babies be beholden to no one? Someone has to raise the child, no matter how it is conceived. The Romanian dictator you referred to did not have or need cloned children to accomplish his ends. Neither did Hitler. The only effect cloning would have had would have been to make the offspring sickly and short-lived. If children who are beholden to no one is the problem, depriving them of the normal parent-child relationship is a much more serious problem than how they were conceived.
What did the bill to allow a foreign army have to do with the cloning issue?
What does Hitler's interest in genetics have to do with anything? EVERY branch of science can be misused by unethical people. Hitler was responsible for development of the Volkswagen, but that doesn't mean Volkswagens are a force for evil today.
Who will their parents be?"
The woman who gives birth to the clone and her husband, if she's married.
The government?
Why should the government have any more to do with it than a regular baby?
What would be wrong with cloning armies?
Cloning would not make it any easier to raise armies than any other way of increasing fertility. Someone still has to give birth to the child and raise it, and that's a hugely larger commitment of resources than merely conceiving it.
I think the science fiction genre has really done us a disservice by misleading the public with such notions as clones growing up faster than normal and having their DNA-donor's knowledge, experience, and personality, all of which are nonsense. A clone and its DNA-donor would have about the same similarity as twins who were raised by different parents.
What's wrong with cloning people?
Is the new LOD cause to take one's losses and step out of the way?
If they win the suit, it will be interesting to see what kind of worthless crap they come up with as "compensation" for the members of the class.
Good point. I emailed a link to that post to NASDAQ.
CNBC says that the Pacific Exchange has announced that they are going to ask the SEC to investigate NASDAQ's handling of the COCO situation this morning.
I'm wondering what ever happened to the concept in Wall Street that "Your word is your bond." They are effectively expecting customers to indemnify them against their own mistakes, thus destroying trust in the system.
I wonder what would happen if everyone who got hosed by the cancellation of trades sued NASDAQ in small claims court? It might not amount to big bucks, but would certainly send a message.
They said something about erroneous quotes, IIRC. Seems to me that if an entity makes an error that costs their customers money, that entity ought to be liable for the damages. Or perhaps cancelling of trades should be outlawed except in cases of fraud on the part of the beneficiary of the trade. Maybe it's time for Congressional legislation to that effect.
The COCO flap has hit CNBC now.
"NDX 1435 or so ought to be reached if there is a bounce off the gap."
Assuming you're talking about a gap up, do you mean a bounce downward to 1435?
Sounds like you're "doing" triple tops now.
Is this a triple bottom on SPX?
Looks like everyone read your forecast of hard down on Friday and decided to try to beat the crowd to the exits. <g>
Well, you certainly were right!
How did you manage to get a time stamp of 9:25 AM on a post saying "The SPX should not have breached 1046"? Is your crystal ball working especially well this morning? <g>
Trouble is, you said "if" the wedge breaks down, which made it not quite so obvious for us lurkers.
Time to jump on the bandwagon? <g>
Yesterday's volume on the COMP appears to have been slightly higher than the previous high on October 15th.
http://chart.bigcharts.com/bc3/intchart/frames/chart.asp?symb=comp&compidx=aaaaa%3A0&ma=0&am...
BTW, you got me out of a short fund right at the last low, and I'm really, really glad right now. Thanks!
Did you close your shorts?
Is this a short-covering rally?
Any further thoughts about Monday?
No one thread is a statistically valid indicator of sentiment.
People like simple answers to life's problems, and fundamentalism is a simple answer.
"I am just doing what is right. It's a new me."
Wow! That's a rather startling admission for a politician to make!
Do the bad prints affect the reported HOD? If so, the phenomenon could just be a result of traders putting in bids when they see that a stock is significantly below its reported HOD.
By my calculations 32.77 works out to 1322. That's based on today's open of 34.92 and 1408.88, for a ratio of 40.3459. (You can't use the close because QQQ closes 15 minutes later than NDX does.)
If this does turn out to be a topping process, do you have any insights on likely targets for a subsequent selloff?
There is definitely something to be said for only predicting when you have reason to be confident in your predictions.
So do you think this could be all the rally we'll see, or are you expecting it to make it all the way up for a retest of the recent high?
"If this was a top on the RUT, we will at least retest it halfway imo."
Are you saying you expect the RUT to retrace at least half of the drop from 520.61 to 482.13? That would equate to 501.37, and we almost there already.
Apparently there are demonstrators demanding that we pull out of Iraq.
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/6885691.htm
Personally, I don't know whether invading Iraq was a good idea or not, but I think pulling out at this point, and leaving the country to its own devices after we dismantled its government, would be irresponsible in the extreme.
Well, you could draw 200-minute, 200-hour, 200-day, and 200-week moving averages. And then you have the same thing for the 50's, and the 20's, and the 13's. It just seems like one can always find a time frame in which some line or another is being touched, or broken through, or whatever, no matter what the market is doing, so I have a hard time seeing how they can all be significant in terms of predictive or analytical value.
Is there something special about the 200 hour moving average?
FWIW, CNBC just referred to it as "very heavy volume - above two billion shares."