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This one is a total crapshoot of course, but just for stuff to read , take a look at my posts about what happened at Paragon (PRGNF).. They had notes with Kyros too, and the stock bounced all around. see my prior posts or research it.
It seems to me that shipping has gotten hit hard but as best I can tell there is change in the air that things are getting better. China, Germany, US economies all doing better. Box's ships seem to be on the water now and not idle (if that info is to be trusted on location etc).
When something falls from a value of 300 million dollars to a market cap of 400k - 1.4 million whatever it is/was around the last month til now it will bounce around a bit.
I was just shocked to see that after Paragon issued a kyros note when the stock was 12 cents that months later the stock shot to 3.60. And that company has negative liquidation value per the CEO. It is still at 50 cents even after a second kyros note.
I am not sure we know everything here. It seems to me that this CEO gets a lot of money from this gig (in the comments of the article you had me find) and maybe somehow these notes are a play on keeping this afloat and someone grabbing a chuck of turnaround or liquidation value.
Why would PRGNF go from 12 cents to 50 cents after dilution. Makes no sense..
Please hack my comments up, looking for ideas (and see prior posts as I posted more info)
Not sure if it was this post or not but it had some interesting information, as did the comments section..
Seeking Alpha Article - Box Ships (November 2015)
I agree, but since you have seen all this BS before,
go take a look at what happened with prgnf. (Paragon shipping)
They did a 500k convertible note with Kyros 1-27-16. Then in just reading they did another one in June
Stock was about 12 cents when they did the first one. it is 50 cents now (after BOTH NOTES), it was as high as 3.60 cents AFTER the first note
Something else weird is going on with these companies, cant pin it down yet but
My point is no one knows what will happen here, two totally different companies, but there does appear to be SOME liquidation value vs none for Paragon, although that "none" might be something with those 3 ships it has on purchase order from China. And Paragon has a lot less stock outstanding. Certainly an interesting situation.
My thoughts on what happened here is 1- the fight between two traders which everyone knows was on this board (since deleted) 2- the note scared people
3- the gap down did not allow for people to trade it down so they are overhanging. 4- people intentionally trying to pull it down with market gimics and fake posts.
I own a small position but might add some just on the off chance the scenario plays out as I think it might.
all my opinion but best of luck to everyone , certainly been an interesting ride.
yes, read what I posted.
PARAGON - Same CEO, similar note with KYROS
1- Their Kyros note was dated 1/27/16 --- theirs was 500k
2- The stock at that time was about 12 cents or so
3- The stock fell to 4 cents by late February
4- By March 3rd PRGNF was 3.62!!! Two month after the 500k note was issued
5- It went down again to 25 cents then up again to 2.60
6- Now it is at 50 cents today, 400% over the price it was when the convertible was issued, despite bad numbers and the CEO saying liquidation value was negative.
Hi, thanks for responding but read what you quoted, I was talking about PARAGON , not Box Ships.
And the update from the company was referring to the exchange program I believe not the Kyros note no?
Is it possible this is a liquidation play.
When you guys stop arguing read my prior posts about what happened with sister company, same CEO as ours . Paragon.
They issued a 500k convertible note to the same KYROS on Jan 27th, 2016 when the stock was about 14 cents or so , fell to 4 cents, then spiked to over 3 dollars. As of March report to OTcmarkets.com the OS stock never changed. Still sells for 56 cents.
Now for Box ships.
See above the posts at the bottom for the liquidation value. Figure 50 million shown there, subtract out about 13-15 million for the priority liquidation value of the preferred stock of 25 bucks a share.
That leaves you with 35 million. Take 10 million off for the heck of it.
The convertible notes if all converted would equal about 75% of the o/s stock. That is 25 million assuming no turn around. for 500k
Reason I mention this is I Paragon. The note was issued when the stock was in low teens and is now 56 cents (but was as high as 3.00 AFTER the convertible note was issued months before!
Someone please read the info I posted to see what you think and pick it apart.
has the stock been frozen? anyone get a trade in the last half hour or so? or is it just the spread ?
Guys please see my posts regarding Paragon , same CEO, a note with KYROS... etc. I agree shipping had burp up earlier then a slowdown but things seem to be picking up the last few months
Need to get your opinion on that stuff.
Sorry to reply to my own post but OTCMARKETS has an outstanding AS/OS update as of March 1, 2016 and there was NO CHANGE from the Jan 27th, Kryos note for Paragon.
There is no update on OS shares since that point, and who knows if that info is correct or not but interesting.
Speculation (opinion)... Say the shipping business is in the tank and you think you might lose it all. Insiders stock is down so far as to be almost worthless and then potentially diluted.
Why not do these crazy deals with Kyros and lock up a good chunk of equity in whatever is leftover and thus come out of this with a huge position in the company when things turn around? Or if per chance a liquidation results in positive money (Paragon does not look like it but stock is trading as if there is some value )
thoughts?
Interesting info - Box sister company Paragon (same CEO as Box Ships and has notes with KYROS also )
Please read this article. Note in this article the author (who wrote this in May) believes the stock price will fall and give you a lot of info . But how did this crazy situation play out?
Kyros did a 500k convertible note on Jan 27th, the share price was about 10 cents per share. By February 26th it was 4 cents a share. Then over about a weeks time it shot up to 3.62 ! Then down to 25 cents then up to 2.64 now it is about 56 cents per share. Paragon sold all their assets but has three ships being built and owes money on them. The CEO says the company's liquidation value is negative (see article).
Interesting stuff. Is it possible Kyros is NOT converting these notes? I have my own theory but you guys read and see what you think?
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3973422-paragon-shipping-share-price-spiked-will-fall" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" >http://seekingalpha.com/article/3973422-paragon-shipping-share-price-spiked-will-fall[tag][/tag]
YES!!!! Very important..
Kyros note 1 issued April
Stock exchange program issued April
Company updated on stock exchange program August 1st
What happened with Kyros note #1??????????????????? If it was converted where are the OS shares?????????
Also please see my next post with interesting info..
Well it was my feeling the financials might not be good, but on the last financials they beat by 2 cents (less loss than predicted). (source the zacks link someone posted) But this does not seem to be trading based on earnings up or down obviously.
In any case why worry about competitor bad news pushing the stock down 21% when we have already fallen 3x that? LOL
In the bigger picture, China, the US and Germany (three large economies) all seem to be gaining some steam here. And the Box boats seem to be in the water at least for now (except the one that shows as "loading")
Good luck to everyone
yes, it is in the form 20-F I believe. you can find it by going to otcmarkets.com typing in Teuff as symbol and going to filings.
It is (going by memory) approved and they have til (I think) November but can always extend or renew that period.
The thing that might be tough is the first half financials. 3 boats idle on April 27th the date of the release of the year end financials (it is in the same 20-F filing).
Wading through the half truths on this board has been a struggle. Those 7 dollar book value numbers are old, the OS figures people are throwing around are old and the real value would be the value of the ships less the debt which if you use the calculations just above the posting section is about 50 million /100 million (or more shares) probably by the end of this note more like 140 million shares. And this does not count the ships now being older and worth a bit less.
So while there is value the note just took a chunk away.
If people are waiting for great financials I think they will be disappointed.
I have to agree with you. Also glad you got out and have some free ride shares, great job!
Well just some final thoughts as we head into the close here.
Probably no recovery because there was no market hours trade down, just a huge markdown by market makers prior to open.
So in essence many people that would have sold on the way down, had to hold or sell much lower. This gap in price at the open eliminated a bunch of the "comeback" capital to push it higher.
I figured it needed to drop to 2.5-2.75 based on the chart anyway so unless it crashes at the close not a total washout. But a strong close here would go a long way for tomorrow.
Lots of back and forth here but perhaps the heavy volume washed out a bunch of sellers.
Good luck to everyone and thanks for all the interesting info on both sides of the discussion.
Well that is one thing that exchanges should change. The TA should never be "gagged". Nice transparency hey?
I never watch this exchange or source of info but to me it seems like a very wide spread and not much trading other than that one trade which seemed to go through early in the am. However we do not know what the seller paid for the stock. He could have paid 5-6 for all we know.
I better get some sleep but you guys keep this up for me LOL
Good luck to everyone :)
That is a tick on the bid. just the bid/ask spread. The spread was like .028-.056 before it opened and now it is .033-.077
Indications of Trading.
Rather than comment since looks like pre-market indications, bottom right of screen under "tick data". Ill post the link for you .
Keep in mind this is not US ticker but a foreign ticker that trades differently at a different price etc (closed friday at 6) and will have a big bid/ask spread prior to open which adjusts to open the stock etc..
So far so good though? 2x bid over ask volume.
Box Ships , Frankfurt exchange
Thank you!
Forward guidance and a similar list in the June 30, 2016 financials showing the ships fully booked and rates will be helpful, as if the financials come out August 15th or so they will have this info up to that date.
Wishful can you repost that ships location post for me please?
As to the upcoming financials it looks to a be a crap shoot at best.
I read the last released financials as of 12/31/15. Since the report date )(the date of release) was in late April of 2016 they had some info in the report for period after 12/31/15
As of the report date in Late April, unfortunately 3 of the companies ships including the largest (the Maule) was IDLE. This means not booked. DO not know for how long, or why, or if it was just briefly but its 3 ships not just one.
But it gets a bit worse. Posted to this board was the following information
"Finally, we fixed the Box Trader at a gross daily rate of $12,400 on a short-term period and extended the CMA CGM Kingfish for a period of five to eight months at a gross daily rate of $15,500, increased by 46% and 63%, respectively, compared to their previous charters, which illustrates the continued market improvement."
(SOURCE OF THIS INFO HERE - SOURCE FOR ORIGINAL QUOTED PRICE PER DAY INFO
However this info was from June of 2015 -- 2015
As of April 2016
the Box Trader was at 5850 per day (vs 12400 in that release above)
the Box kingfish was at 6000 per day (vs 15,500)
With three ships IDLE as of 4-27-16 and 2 ships at rates less than half the previously higher rates (even lower than the original rates before those bumped up charters), it does not appear like this first 6 months of this year are going to be favorable.
The source for the April 2016 info is the form 20F Page 32 table in blue located at 2015 form 20F SEE PAGE 32 table with ships
Not until 3am EST
German stock quotes can be found on this list ill link.
Box Ships German Exchange
Other tickers can be seen here on this link
Box Ships Inc. Tickers (Intl)
Good info and interesting comparison , very much appreciated.
Just wanted to correct your OS stock figure based on the last company released info from Aug 1 2016
"Box Ships Inc. (the "Company") provides guidance on the number of its common shares outstanding. As of July 29, 2016, the Company had 93,118,817 common shares outstanding, which is expected to increase following the conversion of approximately $30,000 remaining under the securities purchase agreement the Company entered into in April 2016."
So its 93 million plus the unknown effects of CD Note 2 (announced Friday) estimated (by rough estimates here on the board at up to 38 million shares) plus the unknown effects of CD note 1 , which oddly either was not converted or was converted and note yet sold into the market.
The OS stock figure is what we need to confirm with the transfer agent as clearly the 30 million figure showing on many sites is wrong as evident from the company's own official release.
financials we are waiting for are for the 6 months ended June 30th, they cut off at a period of time like all financials so that does not matter. The company would have revenue received or billings to customers which would show as revenue even if not received providing the companys end of the deal is done, perhaps calculated by their rate per day etc.
It is also possible that the company can file a request for a 15 day extension to file the financials. The exact date of release is unknown.
If you go to google news and type shipping companies. You will see many had a good day friday for some reason. News with earnings is mixed, revenues in some cases slightly down , earnings slightly down but the big thing is beating expectations!!!!
check this out..
from Forbes on Friday moves "Also showing relative strength are shipping shares, up on the day by about 2.8% as a group, led by Safe Bulkers (SB), trading higher by about 7.6% and Diana Shipping (DSX), trading higher by about 6.3% on Friday."
Just to keep things real, that quote Wishful is from August of 2015.
But in further analysis, the low results last year (in that same August release) were partly due to drydockings they pushed forward so the ships could be fully booked. This is important i will quote so as not to confuse anyone..
"During the second quarter of 2015, we reported net loss of $1.4 million mainly due to the dry-dockings of Box Hong Kong and Box China. Although these dry-dockings were due later in 2015, we decided to undergo the dry-dockings immediately after the redelivery of the vessels from their previous charter, which has enabled us to successfully re-charter the
vessels to MSC for a period of twelve to sixteen months uninterruptedly."
So essentially those periods should run right through most of first half of this year (meaning no dry dock, more revenue).
I highly recommend review of this release below, as I had missed this info..
Box Ships August 2015 release
Just a question for you guys. We all know that whatever that potential dilution is it is not a lot of money right? It does not really make sense as a cash flow tool. A few thousand dollars here or there?
Since the company has not filed anything since the report stating its statements are delayed where does that put them with 10% owner reporting and insider buys etc? There would still be penalties of some kind for not reporting this stuff right?
Second is there a way to confirm outstanding shares with a transfer agent as opposed to waiting for 8-ks? or is that whole process frozen as a result of the reporting delays as some here have mentioned? Cause if it is, I think something else might be happening.
The reason I ask is , if you remember the examples I gave of how I would work this out in the past.
First if you have an interested buyer/lender you acquire almost 10% of the company or more, the company and even insiders would buy stock as their prior ownership value has been diluted away.
At current prices over 6-9 months time you could easily own quite a chunk of stock at essentially its lowest price. For example 50% of the stock outstanding could be purchased for a few hundreds grand which is chump change.
Then the new owner would own a chunk the insiders would and a chunk of stock could be cancelled.
In another case I saw one of the insider stated they would buy 5%, and the company 5% which was a lot less but the price was much higher.
Just curious as to whether or not the filing delays prevent the conversions and whether someone can be accumulating without fling?
Just to talk about a dilution situation given the experience I have with WSTI for a bit I knew a bit more. A Former NYSE company was delisted to the OTCQX. Stock got slaughtered in the process of course but had a net book value of few hundred million. An equity exchange convertible preferred crushed the stock to .006 cents (was 7 bucks last year about a buck start of year). Oustanding stock went from 30 million to over 90 million.
Market cap was down to about WSTIs 250k or so. In the past few weeks it shot up to 4 cents. I did not catch it early, I had seen it a few days before but never got around it timely but got in under 1.7-2.2 in trades. Market cap is 1.4 mil or something now. People toss around their book value , but the net asset value on a valuation less debt is about 50 cents a share (my calcs from info I obtained) but the new dilution could add 38 million more shares so more like 30 cents a share.
HOWEVER!!! they just issued what could be a new toxic for 250k at the close. There are some newfangled versions of these things kicking around. So I guess we will see how things play out next week.
The interesting thing is depending on the situation the toxics really throw anything in the tank, so much so that it sometimes gets overblown.
I am glad my experience helped me in understanding some of the stuff in this other situation. Again, I am a small dollar player in any of this not even worth it really but its a learning experience.
This is my own opinion, do your own research as this is a complicated matter.
Even though I had my own thoughts I always keep an open mind and keep investigating. So I am going to share with you what I found out.
Please note that with these foreign companies things can get a bit crazy with information and it is indeed possible things like the OS shares might be messed up as well without us knowing it.
But that said, providing the OS share count is correct Wishful is correct. Both the NOTE (note #1 from April) and the Exchange agreement could not have both been in OS shares. It might still be possible that the Note 1 shares are converted but not SOLD yet (as Wishful was saying). So we do not know if those are hanging over this or not.
In any case this note is with the same people KYROS. KYROS has done notes with Paragon shipping as well. Investigating them they seem to do stuff in the maritime business.
It might be at least possible that the deal is a bit longer term than people think .
I have never seen this before but unless all the info we have is not updated correctly like the OS shares, the OS shares on Paragon , the updates since the first note etc it is indeed possible this is a different animal.
I apologize for not being more open minded to at least consider this possibility. This does NOT mean I am correct here but I do feel a bit better about the chances this MIGHT not bake the stock to a crisp after some worries on Monday.
I tried to find out more info but will need to call the transfer agent Monday if I can get them.
If anyone can add to this feel free. Also the principals of Kyros are known but I could not find out much info.
Another thought that crossed my mind is I went back to look at the share re-purchase agreement. There is no commitment to do it and it would end (unless extended) sometime this September. But the deal was .....
"Mr. Michael Bodouroglou, Chairman, President, Chief Executive Officer and Interim Chief Financial Officer of the Company, commented: "In an effort to enhance shareholders' value, the Board of Directors has authorized a share repurchase program over the next twelve months. In addition, I intend to purchase up to 5% of common shares outstanding, expressing my belief and confidence in our Company's long-term prospects and fundamentals.""
It is possible there is some crazy understanding between parties not in writing where, someone lent the company money, will convert but NOT sell the shares, but then the COMPANY will buy back those shares at a later time (not the money/cash) but the shares getting more bang from the buck, or the holder holds them for a longer period of time allowing the stock to go up .
So there appears to be ways this might not be "toxic" even if the chance is remote.
I suspect we should know soon enough if we can review current OS numbers. I Cannot find a reliable source other than the transfer agent. Any ideas?
Sorry this is long..
Anyone know if this stock will open on a foreign exchange tomm night late/early Monday morning before the US market open?
I seem to recall its listed on other exchanges..???
Except that it is an EXEMPTION dude. There ya have it. Also the securities delivered are not restricted (read the pdf).
looks like you did well :)
Not sure how this will all shake out Monday but I wish everyone the best :)
Finally someone that gets it
Simple example..
You are the note holder. you send a fax, within 2 days you have your 4.99%, you sell it the same day. You no longer own it, you have ZERO percent in hand, you send another fax.. this is how it is done.
In many cases they short the stock first, actually in most cases I have seen.
But keep believing what you want and see how it plays out. I wish everyone luck here.
Just have seen the damage these notes have done.
With all your value people talk about, they have BEFORE THIS NOTE, given away 2/3 of it for chump change in the last 6 months
No I do not , I own the stock, its up for me, but it is a small position.
The truth is I have seen these notes destroy a number of companies and their employees. I hope I am wrong.
I was actually feeling pretty good that my (bad) experience seeing these notes was going to be helpful here as finally perhaps one company was on the verge of a turnaround after sneaking by their first set of this toxic financing.
See that was the whole story here. People scared out, but coming back in.
I do NOT want this to go down, and certainly do not want Peterpickles or whatever his name is to manipulate this stock down causing people to lose money.
In any case I am a small fish and my trades do not matter but I have seen these notes before and they are like crack to management.
You own a company, you are scrambling for cash, your bank is sweeping your cash account and you have bills to pay and people to pay. Someone comes along and says, we will give you money, we will convert your shares and you do not pay us back. That is essentially what these notes are.
They are a transfer of shareholder value to the company and this small group of toxic lenders that as you know from the news have gotten rich off of everyones back
I agree with that.
the current volume and interest here can possibly absorb a good amount of stock, but it will be like 30-40 million shares.
The thing is though, these companies never stop issuing these notes. Their own insider stock is worth next to nothing and has been diluted away, the banks have their cash in sweep accounts and they are struggling, it is like free money to them, they just take it away from current stockholders.
Eventually this loophole will be closed as you can see the confusion (and losses) it creates for people.
Everyone keeps focusing on the 250k as being small.
It looks small but not when so much of the company ownership is going away from current shareholders.
Look at the stock not the 250k
You are confused, in less than 6 months the outstanding went from 30 million to 90 million plus, they gave away 2/3 of the company right under your nose. After this one goes through, it will be about 140-150 million (including the rest of the shares from the 30,000 left under the other program mentioned in the Aug1 release).
So from 30 million to 150 million means some 80% of the company has been diluted away.
This is just the beginning. As I stated before the last one I followed started this way also and went to 4 billion plus shares in 9 months.
People are using book value for their valuations. Go to the top of this board, scroll down to the net asset value method.
Before this dilution the actual asset value would have been about 2 bucks a shares.
After this it is 40 cents if that.
Their cash is also subject to a sweep account by the bank per the tentative bank deal so that is why they are doing this and will probably continue to do this.
Hi I found it for you since I spent the time no sense everyone killing their own time.. It is on page 46 of the pdf file. I copied as much as I could
" To convert any Conversion Amount into Common Shares on any date (a “ Conversion
Date
”), the
Holder shall deliver (whether via facsimile or otherwise), for receipt on or prior to 11:59 p.m., New York time, on such date, a copy of an executed
notice of conversion in the form attached hereto as Exhibit I (the “ Conversion
Notice
”) to the Company. If required by Section 3(c)(iii), the Holder
shall surrender this Note to a nationally recognized overnight delivery service for delivery to the Company (or an indemnification undertaking with
respect to this Note in the case of its loss, theft or destruction as contemplated by Section 17(b)). On or before the first (1 st ) Trading Day following
the date of receipt of a Conversion Notice, the Company shall transmit by facsimile an acknowledgment of confirmation, in the form attached hereto
as Exhibit II , of receipt of such Conversion Notice to the Holder. On or before the second (2 nd ) Trading Day following the date of receipt of a
Conversion Notice, the Company shall (1) provided that the Transfer Agent is participating in the DTC Fast Automated Securities Transfer Program
and such Common Shares may be issued without restrictive legend in accordance with Section 5(d) of the Securities Purchase Agreement, credit such
aggregate number of Common Shares to which the Holder shall be entitled to the Holder’s or its designee’s balance account with DTC through its
Deposit/Withdrawal at Custodian system or (2) if the Transfer Agent is not participating in the DTC Fast Automated Securities Transfer Program or
such Common Shares may not be issued without restrictive legend in accordance with Section 5(d) of the Securities Purchase Agreement, issue and
deliver (via reputable overnight courier) to the address as specified in the Conversion Notice, a certificate, registered in the name of the Holder or its
designee, for the number of Common Shares to which the Holder shall be entitled. If this Note is physically surrendered for conversion as required by
Section 3(c)(iii) and the outstanding Principal of this Note is greater than the Principal portion of the Conversion Amount being converted, then the
Company shall as soon as practicable and in no event later than three (3) Trading Days after receipt of this Note and at its own expense, issue and
deliver to the Holder (or its designee) a new Note (in accordance with Section 17(d)) representing the outstanding Principal not converted. The
Person or Persons entitled to receive the Common Shares issuable upon a conversion of this Note shall be treated for all purp