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why i ask can management confirm that their shares nor the collateral shares have been hypothecated.
the low interest rate is indicative of hypothecation. the shares have been sold by the lender and they will have to buy back if the loan is paid. they technically still have the shares on their books.
they do these deals with a portfolio of weak companies because most of the time the companies fail and they don't have to buy back.
they don't have to buyback leaving unrealized profits no taxes and they book the loan as a loss for tax purposes.
the borrowing entity wins since they don't have to pay the loan back and got cash upfront for almost no interest. only losers are public shareholders.
management is just testing to see who is really loyal by letting the shares go to zero before 100
haha
Does anyone know of a company that imploded this badly (like still showing EPS, profitable) and the stock crashing?
I know there is Enron/outright frauds but I think even those crashed after there were concerns.
Or during the financial crisis there were at least rumors about Bear Stearns.
I've never seen a company crash when the fraud hadn't been exposed or was still making money.
just curious. Even now they point to increasing book value, especially if you adjust down the collateral shares.
The company wants to get a 20% ROCE, heck with a $1 EPS (adjusting down for collateral shares) they could do a buyback and get a 100% return! ($1 buys back the stock, and about $1 in EPS!)
well we know the price moves before the news with this company, so it could be bad news. I think its just frustrated sellers selling, year end tax-loss selling.
Like I said, they delayed the triway dividend as promised, delayed the agm, delayed the buybacks, delayed the dividend.
Took away any reason to buy. Looks like big holders are finally just getting out and want to be done with this thing.
Why I say unless they are doing this on purpose this is all time the dumbest management team on the planet.
Like why would you do this? Encourage people to sell and give no reason to buy.
let stock price crash, reverse split, let price crash again. repeat over and over until only small fraction of a share left. issue equity compensation of 1 share to ceo and he takes over 99% of company that u grew book value on other people's money with.
ingenious! they reverse split DRYS like that
I have a solution! we convert the broken fish farm1 u know the $19m one to a cryptocurrency mining play and issue pr about it. easy 10x on this stock. sad but true.
1.00 usd party, almost here! just like the 100 party but different! come on guys can we do it today let's break the buck.
special guests zerohedge and joenatural with our guest of honor gullible fish
sadly I have stopped buying due to cancellation/delay of agm.
IF the company can communicate properly with shareholders I will start buying again.
siaf took away all reasons to buy, delayed triway dividend, delayed agm, delayed dividends delayed buyback. so now u also have a buyers strike. they must be confident in the loan cause it's the only thing left.
so the only buyer would be seeing this as a value play that will unlock at some point.
so dumb, why I ask are they doing this on purpose? should have still had agm.
unless they kill the stock to take it private for 2 a share or something.
share hypothecation - an owner like CEO can borrow against the shares at interest, pledging the shares as collateral. The lender immediately sells the shares (even though it shows the CEO still owns them) for a profit. The CEO defaults on the loan in the end. The CEO wins (got the money via loan that isn't paid back except some small interest), lender wins (liquidates the stock and get some interest for free, sometimes gets shares below market). Only losers are shareholders.
Do we know that none of the shares that our executives are holding have been "hypothecated" which basically means they are sold even though technically they still have them (since they are lent as colleteral).
Similar thing can happen with collateral shares.
Lending can also buy back the shares at lower prices. There is a risk to the lender that the stock rallies and would have to buy back the shares.
Share hypothecation occurs when executives want to sell shares without showing a official sale.
handelmera vs zerohedge -- perma bull vs perma bear who wins. Not really fair since we are at 1.25. But interesting nonetheless
why is this company public? like what benefit is there for anyone.
I thought u were going to say free fallin by Tom petty aka the shares
dont forget they got $15 million from Agriculture bank of China (ABC) with a rolling audit included this year, I think that was a big deal and win.
and who gets mad or rolls their eyes at shareholders when the stock is Down 75%?
they know they don't have to care.
the problem is they are bad operators. for example if we take sjap/beef they are getting killed because even with import costs USA beef is higher quality or cheaper and both. they can't compete. maybe they aren't as mature as a industry. same with problem with aquafarms is someone competent hires even .ca to build it they will flood the market and kill aquafarm too. I like that siaf tries to do premium products but they aren't able to successfully. so the real danger is that they squander enough time and the profits get eroded away by competent competitors.
realistically this should be trading at 10 minimum and probably closer to 20 to 30 if they professionally managed the business and didn't punish people for holding shares.
I say 10 with a 1 eps and we r at bottom of cycle. while book value is higher, they aren't able to edge to be use those assets. if u have say 30 in book, u should get at least 3 in eps which is only 10 percent return on equity, and a credible company would trade at 30 to 45 minimum.
so there is upside but is it scrap value. it's very sad to see management squander their own opportunity as well as shareholders b3cause they can't communicate or behave like adults or professionals.
they should have had the agm and discussed the issues frankly. this is was emptyone would have said.
unless they r intentionally doing this, they took away almost all reasons to buy stock. I was buying because of triway spinoff since we r trading below what the triway dividend would have been. then we had agm with maybe news, then we had dividends and buybacks.
so now triway dividends unknown
no agm or delayed indefinitely
buybacks delayed indefinitely
dividends delayed indefinitely
eps down significsnrly
potential write off to wipe out this year eps fishfarm
only thing left is loan which could go on indefinitely unless as the other posters said is imminent.
so basically taking away all the reasons I was buying this whole year.
and I'm down on all purchases.
so it's like why not give people a reason to buy. and now they r putting all their hopes on that loan. so how will they screw that up I don't know.
if they aren't doing this on purpose they are really really dumb with how they communicate. and with a higher share price they would have more options for financing.
like the pr for the agm.with buybacks and dividend went our on a different newswire, I think it's still not on the investor newsroom, so we didn't even know if that is real.
and now they walked that back no agm dividends or buybacks no share dividend on triway, and no loan so far.
so really u ask why take away all the possibilities for share appreciation and put all ur eggs in one basket aka the loan.
when stock price is Down, u can find a million reasons a stock is problematic, when it goes up there r millions of reasons it's going higher. so a lot of criticism is because stock price is low and management won't support the stock.
so probably alot more skepticism about stuff because of that. with 635m of siaf assets there r bound to be some wierd things
my opinion is the r poor operators not criminals. like u have to do coso because siaf books r so complicated they couldn't get the loans directly.
but keep in mind for example writing off the $19 million dollar fish farm (which will happen at some point) will wipe out all profits for this year (estimating .88-.90 cents EPS and 19.3 million shares for 2017).
So if you make profits and create useless assets than you aren't making money you are destroying value after it is created.
Hopefully this will be a one off and not a trend, but total assets are pretty large so there might be more to write off in there.
why would they say the stock has bottom at this point? Once again its comedic genius like its from $17 to 1.35, haha like at $2 they were like well I think it looks like it still has a way to go down, but at $1.35 its like no worry guys the drop has stopped.
who even says that.. they dont care about the shareholders at all. its really funny who says the stock has bottomed at 1.35 lol
how u get to $100 party is to wait, we are at cycle low, eventually these foreign agriculture plays will become hot, say good ones will trade at pe of 50, SIAF maybe 20-30 cause its laggard. But that will be when its earnings are rising and Solomon will be on pedestal. And we dump our shares on the next bag holders!
Alternately we could get bought.
Those are the two ways I can imagine this working out.
One question that makes you think maybe this is a fraud is that when they are so incompetent with fish farms etc, how could then make af1/af2 work.. like they failed at everything else how is it possible they are making so much money on triway.
And I mean not just at all the other stuff they fail at like beef and flowers and stuff,I mean all the fail in aquaculture.
Like how can a company make $40million in a aquafarm when they build ones for $19million that are unusable and AF4 where it can't use the water. haha. like that serious has happened. what kind of "experts" do this yet make farms that make $40 million.
How can you be so incompetent and then make these exceptionally running aquafarms?
why can't they boil the shrimp? or somehow the tanks leak or whatever. This company spent $19 MILLION US DOLLARS on a fish farm that is unusable! 19 MILLION US DOLLARS!! In CHINA!!! they spent $19 million US Dollars in china and dont even own the land!!! And they are supposed to be experts. They built AF4 with unusable water!!! lol that why I can't stop laughing we should make a movie out of these guys its like how do you even think of failing in all these ways.
like none of us are aquaculture experts but i seems like one of the first things I would do if I were building aquafarm, bigger than I had every built, was make sure I had a source of usable water. hahaha, how is this even an error you could make? thats why I say its like the producers are they trying to fail on purpose
the chief scientific officer has a scientific PHD and didn't think to see if the water was usable?
if they get the loan it will be a liability and the farms.will be an asset. can the actually not screw it up? on small scale no, bit on larger scale probably. banks will phase in parts of the loan, so there is always risk they mess up along the way and can't actually get the whole loan.
for example they might get the boiler but then boil the shrimp by accident. then they will try to buy a franchise to a long John silver's to minimize the loss for siaf and triway shareholders to try to liquidate the boiled shrimp.
not getting the loan could be a blessing in disguise, they get the loan and get into real trouble. they already don't care about shareholders at all. .maybe it's better to stay smaller and profitable and grow slower. this team hasn't earned shareholder trust to do the right thing at all.
I think getting the loan could.be a curse with current management. they end up going bk and wipe us all out.
how many farms will they build that are in the wrong place or I inoperable? think about it. we will still owe interest and debt payments minimum of 6m a year.
can't stop laughing this team is like abbott and Costello. I'm see things the same as emptyone or gullible fish except they take the management team seriously and I don't. this is like the movie the producers like how can u mess up this much is it on purpose?
so no stock div because there r tax implications, we built a 19 million dollar fish pond that we might have to write down,we thought we had 36 but it was 24 but now 36 of triway, our the wheels have fallen off all our businesses but triway.
it's hilarious u built a 19m fish pond that s worthless? u told shareholders they get a dividend but only now oops it's taxable!
and the best is they think the stock has bottomed hahahahahahha at 1.35 a share. like gullible fish is going to be upset seeing it go to 50 cents at this point.
give zero his props his facts r wrong but he has been right about this stock price.
I am and have been buying, because it's some kind of net net at this point but seriously for long term holders the is probably the funniest confer3nce calls and management team I have ever seen. unprofessional in every way.
imagine those workers building that pond looking at each other why r we doing this it will never work.. but they just roll their eyes because they r getting paid.
it's amazing this clown car makes money think how good a business it is when u have such cluelessness and it still doesn't lose money.
it's just really funny.
so no divs no mention of buybacks no share div no agm so we win! haha
and they r going to get a 100m loan, lol imagine the dumb stuff they r going to do with that money. not really sure y everyone is blush on the loan I kinda like them not having it since it limits the damage they can do.
we need to be bought out by real operators.
but seriously I cant stop laughing thinking of empryones posts he is trying to talk seriously and I imagine all these guys r dressed as Ronald McDonald while answering questions
missed the call but no monster selling yet. dies anyone have a synopsis of what happened, buybacks dividends and when is agm?
that s always the case on the way down is it going to zero, on the way up how high can it go. but shareholder r pretty abused by management so I think it's fair for them to be critical. at the same time management may be doing the best they can, even though operating the businesses may not be their strength it may be ideas.
since the track record isn't good how will we be let down tomorrow? I say everything is delayed.
snow this is also with many of the af being maintained or not in service so it's sub optimal, the actual profits should be higher from those facilities than 2017 according to recently published document by siaf.
not clear on this they r reporting income as 23.89 ownership and thus increase in book value. have they exercised this option? net effect will be the same on balance sheet increase in triway and erasing 41m of loan owned by triway. did anyone ask this for the conference call?
Q3 2017 income from investment was USD 1.4M. This figure is based on its current 23.89% equity interest in Tri-way, prior to the effective one-year anniversary date (October 5, 2017) when SIAF is permitted to exercise its option to convert Tri-way's USD 41M in outstanding debt into equity interest of 12.71%; equivalent to 12.7M common shares of Tri-way, currently registered in HK and available for transfer upon SIAF's instruction to exercise its option.
the book value of triway on siaf books is around 144m. however I believe it shows23.89% ownership. will this change when they exercise to go to 36.6? the original press release said triway was worth 340m, and siaf owned 36.6 suggesting a value of 124m. so if it's 144m now at 23.89% ownership this would suggest a 220m valuation of triway upon conversion to 36.6. thoughts?
this adds almost 4 a share in book value removing collateral shares.
gullible fish and empryone r in a special type of hell, most investors lose money once, they mentally lose the same dollars every week. over and over. very sad place to be. then they come to anonymous message boards crying into the void, wishing Someone cared.
point is unless we get new data like conference call or analysis of reports, crying about losing money aka gullible fish or crying about management aka empryone is pointless.
when u buy these shares u know who has the a shares, u know who u decided to ride with.
really wierd how they come here for counseling. what have they posted different than the same.posts for 6 months.
hopefully call will do something productive. my opinion is they will mess it up and div and buyback because that is their track record. meaning if they get something right it is the wierd thing.
u have to be patient and believe it'd not a fraud. because u don't have voting shares anyway.
yes I'm still buying hopefully more this week. I hm at a loss on every purchase I have made this year and all my purchases and while shares have dropped book value is up about 1.50 this year.
of course there could be some monster writedown coming as well but we r near bottom of cycle, eps grew to .15 from .03 on decling revenue quarter over quarter.
just so change the record talk about something else
lol no af4 with the bad water is best example of that!
btw they r going to mess up the div and buyback too.. u should expect that. why? cause they mess everything up. u should be surprised if they come thru, cause that would be the exception. one day good operators will come in and monetize this.
May be some delay or a .01 div or whatever these guys invent new ways yo mess up.
but they still make money. amazing.
wow strong statement!
happy thanksgiving to the turkeys on this board.
how is this stock risky if it's not a fraud? tsla is risky. this seems very safe.
th seller may be done selling. we popped on low volume and volume is still.tight. if volume stays low we should drift higher as there are no real sellers. if there is good news that would be better. bad news we have to see going down if there is volume. but right now it looks like our seller may be finally done. each day with lack of volume or sell pressure indicates that. we haven't had a 100k+ share day in a bit now. also if u look at the chart it looks like someone was liquidating.
in addition, if the stock rallies the inverse will.happen, less collerateral shares going forward so higher eps.
I have been buying btw
tri-way in Hong Kong shows up in Dunn and Bradstreet records.
surprising move today, could have been all time lows!
volume was at 100k+ which is low relative to the down days
one other idea is solomon is trying to kill the stock to take the company private. I am in a Chinese company that is 75% owned by insiders and has announced a take private deal at less than half of book value.
So if the share price is low the take private offer can be at a 50% premium to the market price etc.
But if that was the case why issue a press release, even by accident saying your doing a dividend and buybacks, or do the COSO with Triway, etc.