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Sure, as long as you agree to do your mea culpa.
OK. I'll wait until we see the 4Q 10-K.
Well we'll know in a month and a half. No revenues by Dec. 31st, and yes - we were fooled. But if there are revs, well ... we expect you to apologize!
Sorry Georgei, but right now I just can't agree with you. Too many people would have had to have knowledge of this for it to have been an effective ongoing scam. I don't think there are that many dishonest people in the industry. From geologists to miners, bankers to financiers, lawyers to business people, assayers to jailers and accountants. Everyone all fooled by one man. No way! If what you say is true, then our society has a real problem.
Sure Georgei I apologize for not sharing my thoughts. If they don't have revenues by the end of December then I will consider this a lost cause. If they never generate revenues (say within a year) the SEC and FBI should investigate, and if anyone committed a crime they should be tried and spend time in jail if convicted. That would be up to the Courts.
BTW - I don't think any of this will happen. I think they will have revenues by Dec. 31st just like they said. No criminality here.
But Georgei, how do you explain 1.63M shares? We know who's selling - firms and people paid with stock. But who's buying?
No, because they would go to jail if they were lying.
Georgei, you must have missed the following picture:
http://mms.businesswire.com/media/20160728005385/en/536921/5/ECPN_FullSizeRender1.jpg?download=1
This photo depicts recovered gold beads—99% pure—from dozens of El Capitan ore concentrate samples tested using a new recovery process that will be used at the production plant currently in development.
If you can't believe your own eyes Georgei, what can you believe???
One problem. You're not the President, and Trump is. I expect Sarah Palin, who I like, will get a job in this administration and I hope we drill for oil and natural gas to the maximum extent possible. For a variety of reasons. Oh, and the Keystone Pipeline will be completed. The liberal environmentalists lost the election and now those who want maximum energy production will have their way. They can count on my support, and millions like me.
I agree with you about the El Capitan mine. It will be a very clean extraction process.
Drill Baby Drill! That's the words of Sarah Palin, and reports say she is in line as next Secretary of the Interior. Given Trump's declaration of going big time on energy, I expect that's what he and his Cabinet Secretary will do.
"Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has been mentioned in reports for Secretary of the Interior."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/11/trumps-cabinet-speculation-mounts-over-president-elects-team.html
BTW - States cannot stop the Federal Government from drilling off-shore or on Federal land. I think we are going to see a spike in domestic energy production like never before. Environmentalists will not like it, but Trump doesn't care. After all, he didn't get their support during the race and I doubt he cares excessively about a second term. Let's face it - 4 years from now he certainly isn't going to get the enviro vote no matter what he does or doesn't do. Plus he is not an environmentalist. He's a BIG OIL guy! And coal. And natural gas. Solar? Not in the least.
Government regulation. Georgei, I feel compelled to ask you a question. What is your opinion on Trump becoming President? Will he allow for more gold exploration and mining because he is less beholden to liberals who are against exploiting natural resources? After all, here's how he plans to put a halt to the meddling of the EPA in allowing companies to exploit energy resources:
"Rather than continuing the current path to undermine and block America’s fossil fuel producers, the Trump Administration will encourage the production of these resources by opening onshore and offshore leasing on federal lands and waters.
We will streamline the permitting process for all energy projects, including the billions of dollars in projects held up by President Obama, and rescind the job-destroying executive actions under his Administration. We will end the war on coal, and rescind the coal mining lease moratorium, the excessive Interior Department stream rule, and conduct a top-down review of all anti-coal regulations issued by the Obama Administration.
We will eliminate the highly invasive "Waters of the US" rule, and scrap the $5 trillion dollar Obama-Clinton Climate Action Plan and the Clean Power Plan and prevent these unilateral plans from increasing monthly electric bills by double-digits without any measurable effect on Earth’s climate. Energy is the lifeblood of modern society. It is the industry that fuels all other industries. We will lift the restrictions on American energy, and allow this wealth to pour into our communities. It’s all upside: more jobs, more revenues, more wealth, higher wages, and lower energy prices."
*Note. Trump is going to complete the Keystone Pipeline.
https://www.greatagain.gov/policy/energy-independence.html
So will a President Trump fire people working for the Forest Service if they don't get in line with his new policies re; getting at natural resources? Will he get the USFS out of the El Capitan mine's way? Will the Congresspeople and Senators in NM assist in allowing Mr. Stapleton to use his road for El Capitan mining? Will potential buyers now feel less afraid to buy the mine because of a more receptive regulatory environment that won't stand in the way of mining operations? What say you Georgei? What say YOU?
Georgi, you must admit the buying is intriguing. The selling could be caused by people who were paid in stock - they may be selling because that's how they eat and pay the rent. But the buying is more interesting.
Who cares about the dollar amount, it's the volume that has meaning behind it. 4 million shares in two days indicates interest - high interest - and the question must be asked. Why?
Obviously some people know something that others are not privy to. Something big must be happening. There is no other explanation. I myself hope it is something extremely good because I am an investor. I respect your decision to remain out, but it is not mine. As always your insight is appreciated, even if we disagree.
George - so far over a million shares traded today. One must ask why? What will you say if they announce their first payment for ore? Will that change your mind? I will give you my guess (a good guess). That's what's coming, and that's why we see all this volume. What do you surmise George?
Why 2.4 million shares purchased today George? What's going on? Thanks!
Then report it. The FBI link is included.
Criminal syndicate? George, is that what you are suggesting is operating here? A criminal syndicate consisting of numerous individuals, shell companies and professional service companies all involved in a multi-million dollar fraud? If so, why hasn't the FBI gotten involved?
You see that's the problem. If what you say is true, the authorities would have gotten involved a long time ago. After all, you are not talking about petty theft here. Why haven't you at least sent an alert to the FBI? I can help you with that - if indeed you believe this is all a "scam":
FBI Submit a Tip Online:
https://tips.fbi.gov/
There you go George. I don't agree with you so I won't alert the authorities, but if you really believe what you say is happening then you need to.
Thank you for answering my questions George. I am very thankful. As for your questions, from what I have read the reason the El Capitan Mine now has interest in its ore is because they have developed a method that effectively extracts gold from the concentrates. Mr. Davidson is getting an average of 0.40 OPT from the process he is using. This they could not do in the past 10 years ago because they did not have the technology. Now they do, thanks to AuraSource's separation machine. We saw pictures of the gold beads in the press release, and shareholders saw them at the meeting in New Mexico. And they have reported the OPT to the SEC in their Forms 10-Q and 10-K. They would be in big trouble if they lied in them, so I don't think they would. They could go to jail. I hope that answers your question.
I don't know why no one else is staking claims. Perhaps they will once the El Capitan Mine begins production. If they are getting 0.40 OPT I would expect a run on the land out there soon. Wouldn't you?
Thank you for everything!
George, this investment is not about any individual, it is about a company.
Now in all honesty, what is your opinion on China MinMetals? Obviously you don't think the El Capitan Mine has gold, but I am not asking you about that. Please if you can tell me what you know, if anything, about China MinMetals. Have you ever heard of them?
If I may, I am guessing that if AuraSource is dealing with anyone in China it must be China MinMetals because they already have an association with them. So all I would kindly request is that you comment on this:
CHANDLER, AZ -- AuraSource, Inc., a developer of hydrocarbon clean fuel and mineral material beneficiation technology, today announced that it has received its first order for processed iron ore from Minmetals, Inc., a wholly owned division of China Minmetals Group ("Minmetals"). AuraSource received a letter of credit for $6.5 million for the first shipment of iron ore. AuraSource expects to make the first delivery in September.
What do you make of this?
So two items:
1. Have you ever heard of China MinMetals and what do you think of them?
2. What do you think of this relationship AuraSource has with MinMetals?
Thanks you for you kind response. I am still learning you know. I am trying to dig deep for hidden information.
A scam? With Blair Dunn representing the company? Hardly. If it was then they are spending an awful lot of money for lawyers and out at the mine site. Millions. And they have fooled a lot of people (or have a lot of accomplices). There is no way!
No, I don't think it is a scam. If it were there is no way a reputable company like this top rated law firm of Blair Dunn would tarnish their stellar reputation by being involved with it. That would put the firm out of business! As far as I'm concerned if they have Blair Dunn, to me, that's says a lot! All positive from a legitimacy standpoint (naturally I don't expect them to be geological experts. Dr. Clyde Smith is our man in that department).
Yes there is risk, but I judge it to be worth taking. Everyone else has to decide for themselves. From the moaning I've read on the company forum, it seems some folks should have never ever ever have gotten involved in this investment. They are way out of their risk tolerance level, and some invested way more than they should have. If this were to fail, they aren't going to be able to blame anyone but themselves. Small exploratory miners go out of business all the time - many never having dug so much as a 1/2 ton of ore. Or so I have read.
AuraSource is headquartered in China. That means they have lots of contacts with Chinese miners. So don't expect that it will be the U.S. office which gets the ore sold. It will be the Beijing office. Check this out from an Aurasource press release:
"Mr. Miao Jing, vice president of Minmetals, stated, "We are eager to work with innovative companies such as AuraSource and establish a long term sourcing and supply partnership for mineral products."
Philip Liu, AuraSource's CEO, stated, "We look forward to a long and mutually beneficial relationship with Minmetals. We are pleased to commence our first revenue producing contract with such world class company." "
http://www.aurasourceinc.com/n18.html
Wow! My guess is China Minmetals will be the buyer of the ore. Maybe they'll even pick up the mine. After all, an "unnamed" mining company has been testing the El Capitan Mine's ore for quite some time now. This is what I read on the company forum. If it is China MinMetals and they do buy this mine, I think everyone is going to be very happy. And why wouldn't they?
I also read on the Capitan company forum that they are getting better than 0.40 OPT from many of the samples. There is a church Pastor that always posts on the forum who went to the shareholders meeting. He seems very confident in his El Capitan Mine investment. Hey, if you can't trust a man of the cloth who can you trust? After they book their first revenues I hope the stock blows past $1. That would be great!
10,000 mesh does exist. I verified it on the interweb. I also did more research on this hydro-pressure ore pulverizing. The gist of the matter is, they take very high water pressures and subject the concentrated ore to what amounts to water shock waves much like exploding/collapsing bubbles that wears down the edges of your metal propellor on your outboard boat motor. Ever see that? It is called cavitation. Look it up! Tremendous pressures. It pulverizes ore into tiny tiny tiny granules - almost like powder. That's how they get the gold out.
It took a lot of research to find this out. I hope some of you find it helpful.
The comment from the company forum that I pasted said; "Then, they go through a lap process and a plasma process where they heat up to 6,000 degrees without melting the ore." I think the person who wrote that made an error in the temperature. The melting point of gold is 1,948 degrees F (from Google) so this 6000 degree thing seems not correct. Maybe the person meant 1,600 degrees.
I may have been incorrect about using cyanide in this process but that's what I read on the interwebs. They all say cyanide is used to take gold from crushed ore. I am guessing here but let me comment on this part of the last comment:
"The other separation tracks produce gold, and platinum, and some other platinum group metals such as palladium."
The person said "the other separation process". Then this must be where they use cyanide. That must be this "other separation process". What else could it be? I'm not sure. Everything I have read says cyanide is used to soak out gold from processed (crushed) ore.
Gitreal and Georgei the Gold ounces is 0.40 or better using a "hydro-separation" process that makes the ore grinding very fine. I have done more due diligence thinking perhaps I should increase my position next week.
Here is what I found out. The ore with the gold in it is taken from the mine site and further ground down using this micro-grinding process. I assume very high water pressures are used to pulverize the gold-bearing ore or mine-site generated concentrates down to 10,000 mesh (mesh is how they measure granule size, like sandpaper from Home Depot). This powder-like ore is probably then run through a process called cyanide leaching where chemicals remove the gold from the powdery ore. They actually soak the ore in cyanide! There is a lot of information about cyanide leaching for gold extraction on Google if you do not understand how they make gold. Just Google "gold cyanide leaching". Boy did I learn a lot! I have spent hours on the interweb and reading the company forum.
That's what I found out using Google. So I believe you are mistaken by saying there is no gold at the El Capitan mine Gitreal. Since you seem to have some understanding of how mining works I would ask you to read the following comment placed on the company forum by a person who went to the shareholder's meeting. You are welcome to critique the extraction process El Capitan's Mr. Davidson is employing. I am reading everyone's opinion on this. I need to learn as much as I can about mining because as I have admitted I am new to mining investing. Here it is:
Some clarification here. We have an AuraSource separator at the mine. We also have a excavator and a front loader. In order to get smaller than 6 inch to fill the head ore orders we bring in a crusher. It was not at the mine site when we were there. I don' think we own that. That is all the processing we need to do to load trucks for the head ore sales. Management would not tell us what they were selling the head ore for. They did tell us it would cost $30 per ton to process it and load it on trucks for the customer.
In order to use the AuraSource we must crush further, and to do that we bring in an impactor, this takes us down to about 5 milimeters. This is then run through the AuraSource separator, the crushed ore runs up a conveyor belt and falls into a bin which separates using regular magnets and super magnets. If I have this right the magnetite is picked up by the regular magnets and is separated on the left side by a conveyor belt. The super magnets then pick up the hematite and it goes to the right side. The non magnetic ore goes out the front conveyor belt. If I remember correctly the magnetite has a large gold content as does the material at the front conveyor which also has silver and platinum. The hematite also has gold but to a much lower concentration so is not as desirable.( Hopefully I don' have the mineral type reversed, but you get the idea). ECPN has piles of this separated ore stacked up on the property. That is as far as we can process at the mine site. About 10% to 15% of the separated ore is that more concentrated with precious metals and about 85% to 90% is higher iron content with lower PM.
So the plan now until we get the Forest Service to allow us to truck the larger head ore is to just truck the separated higher PM containing 5mm ore to AuraSource. AuraSource will then do the second very fine crushing and rerun separation again. After that they go through a hydro separation process that gets out most of the iron. Then, they go through a lap process and a plasma process where they heat up to 6,000 degrees without melting the ore. What comes out of that process is several different separations. One is a lead concentrated with silver and a little gold. The silver and the lead are together and that gets heated where the lead is melted off and you are left with silver and about 3% gold for that track. The other separation tracks produce gold, and platinum, and some other platinum group metals such as palladium. The purity of those at this stage are 90% or greater. If you looked at the website you saw the small beads of gold or platinum. That is when these are sent to the refiner to process into pure metal. The concentrating and processing goes something like this from 0.05% at the first concentrating of PM to 1%, to 3%, to 10%, to 35%, to 75%, to 90%. Now those are not actual numbers, but it was the drift of what Davidson was talking about. The whole process yields on average 0.4 ounces per ton of head ore of precious metals on a gold equivalent basis. All of these concentrations and the the percentage of the various elements at each stage of this process was shown to us using a handheld X-Ray Flourescence spectrometer analyzer. So we could verify the purity of PM in each of the samples he had on the table.
There it is. This is how they get gold at a high OPT from the El Capitan Mine ore. If anyone with mining experience wants to take exception with this process - to say it is not possible - then have at it. Maybe some people from the company forum will chime in here so we novices can get a better understanding. I am now comfortable with investing in this stock, and will weight further purchases.
How about this....."no PM's of any significance". Does that work for you?
Then where did the gold beads that are pictured in the news release and that people saw at the shareholders meeting come from? Are you saying criminal activity took place and someone used outside gold to taint the ore samples? If so, who is the head of this activity? The names of the people?
I guess since they have no revenue they don't have to report quarterly, only yearly. As they start making revenue from El Capitan's ore then I would expect quarterly financial reports. I would really like to see the reports from the parent in China.
True, but if I were CEO of a mine as big as the El Capitan mine I would want to go to China and check out the company - AuraSource. And I have been doing a lot of reading on the company PMI forum, traveling back in time, and I read someone's post about a second machine that fine-grinds the ore. Where is that machine?
Then I see that a Mr. David Davidson is the mine contractor now, but I also read in press releases about a company named Logistica. What happened to them? Are they still employed by El Capitan?
I know I ask a lot of questions. I appreciate any insights people here can give me. It is hard to decide if I should buy more shares. I have never invested in a mine before, so I have much to learn.
You stated; "That lab, Auric, is used exclusively by scam companies like ECPN to produce positive results that can then be promoted to sell shares."
So are you saying Auric Labs is producing incorrect results in order to fool investors? I find that hard to believe because Dr. Clyde Smith has to verify lab results, no? So he would have to be aware if Auric results were not good, right? He is a world-class geologist.
Anyway, Auric would have to be certified and licensed by the State of Utah where they are headquartered. If they are not legit, how could they have remained in business for 18 years without the State of Utah taking away their license? Certainly they would do that.
And there must be a State of Utah consumer complaints division that has records on Auric. Or a Dept. of Consumer Affairs or Contractor's Licensing Agency that would take complaints. If you are going to say Auric is not reliable where is your proof from these Utah State regulators? There would have to be records. They have operated for 18 years according to their website. I think you are not being accurate in your allegations again.
Since AuraSource is so vital to the El Capitan mine, I wonder if Mr. Stapleton has done his due diligence for the company and traveled out to their headquarters in Beijing? I am hopeful that he did because it would seem to be a part of his fiduciary duty to the company. AuraSource must be verified. The company, their equipment, their financials.
I see AuraSource must be reading this board. They just filed the following 8-K:
https://biz.yahoo.com/e/161007/arao8-k.html
Now, where are the financial reports? The 10-Q? The last one was filed on Jan 20, 2016.
Georgei pointed out AuraSource has no SEC filings since the last quarter of 2015. I wonder why. Does anyone know?
Shareholders need to be asking hard questions about Aura Source. The process may be secret, but we need proof that a plant is being built. Secrecy is not called for here. Transparency is. So I have no problem with people asking more about who we have contracted to sell our ore. If they are not credible, El Capitan has a problem. Answers need to be had. Nothing to apologize for if you ask. If they are credible, things look bright. If not ...
Lastly, are they a real company in China? Beijing is a long way away. How does one find out?
I read it on the company forum. See Mr. Gold's post below on how to join it.
Well I will admit it is disconcerting that the Aura Source representative was "tight lipped" about the location of their planned facility. It's not good when shareholders have to "take my word". There is no reason why the location of the plant cannot be disclosed for inspection by shareholders. Who is verifying that one is indeed being built? Lack of transparency is always a cause for prudent alarm.
Dr. Clyde Smith is a world renown geologist. I guess you didn't know that he is on the BoD. He can't be "tricked".
Are you making the accusation that AuraSource is a "Boiler Room" company? That's quite an accusation, and to my knowledge there is no indication of that being true. I read this on the company forum:
"In our current negotiations with the Chinese it turns out that the intermediary processor is Aura Source. They are going to transport the head ore from the mine to a yet to be disclosed location and concentrate it as for shipment to China. This is beneficial to both parties. We are paid cash up front as it leaves our property. Aura Source benefits by proving their methods on a large scale production basis. They want to sell more equipment and license the procedure to other mining operations. I attempted to find out where their plant will be located and the CFO was very tight lipped about the location."
People at the meeting talked to the Aura Source CFO. I would find it hard to believe that El Capitan's Board of Directors are all in on something illegal in conjunction with Aura Source. You need to stop making accusations and/or allegations unless you can provide proof. Where is your proof sir? I don't think what you are saying is true.
The road issue I believe is firmly resolved - in favor of the El Capitan mine as authorized by no less than the United States Congress and the President of the United States. I read the document from the company website and it is very clear. The laws are on our side as are the permit documents. The USFS is setting itself up for a massive lawsuit in my opinion. I don't believe they can prevail in Court.
See slides 11 and 12 of the following:
http://www.elcapitanpmi.com/sites/default/files/Shareholders%27%20Meeting%20Presentation.pdf
I may be a new investor, but I have done my research and due diligence into this mine. I am confident in my ECPN investment.
China Minmetals and AuraSource. I Googled it. I am glad they have a relationship. This suggests many things to a savvy investor. You can take it from here. Good luck in your investing.
No, I see an AuraSource filing on January 20, 2016:
https://biz.yahoo.com/e/160120/arao10-q.html
Since they have not been delisted the reports are probably just not showing up online.