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No not incorrect. My guess (and I think PP mentioned or someone else), that they are clearly waiting till all the IPRs are done to give the market a full overview and likely will outline the path forward
I would agree with PP that this is their most likely reason for waiting. You wouldn't want to PR each IPR , too much effort, money wasted and likely would lead to confusion in the market vs a fulsome summary
What you see on level 2 is only the "best" bid / ask so there could be a lot more shares in between
My guess is there's a lot of penny traders who bought in the ones and twos who aren't in it for big wins just flipping who will exit and likely are already
One patent left -501. Likely similar rulings on those claims so we should see a few more get through
I think you meant 690 and not 501?
Claims 4,8, 13,16 survive by my read?
Woohoo! Thanks!
And the moving parts of the broken chain / date issue and the case I just refenced with Scotus
SCA hygene going "our way" will have a material impact on potential damages here
I thought the issue is six years due to laches. Could be wrong in that but fairly certain- see the article / link below
However, that defense could change soon as there is a case at Scotus (sca hygene referenced in that article) that was recently heard that is trying to align patent law with copyright law, which would then get us to what you are suggesting
Article for your reference
http://patentlyo.com/patent/2016/05/supreme-defense-infringement.html
Yes and it's a given wddd will appeal the infringement period issue as the district court basically agreed it was an error.
I think we can assume it will be the full six years when all is said and done
Excellent catch good man! So now we have 4 claims through !
Great throrough diligence friend!
Sadly I was wrong, see gibsons response to me. There were two IPRs on that patent and I read only one.
The other IPR killed those claims
Well the good thing is at this level we are definitely undervalued now.
Clearly even if the patent claims were minor we're worth more than 7-8 mil in market cap
Add in the fact that I was corrected on in regards to the ownership of WORX -18-20% of that company is pretty much 1/2 the value of this company. Thus, we're still not being given much of any value for the patents - 4mil or so
I also suspect we may get some claims reversed by the CAFC. The BRI and timing game is clear and that may help us on other claims on appeal.
I would hope we move to the .16-20 cent range once this is all done and the pr is released on the path forward
Sigh... thanks missed that second IPR on the same patent
:(
Oh well still a lot to go and as some here have suggested what got through is key
Onwards and upwards!
Also to clarify in 998 folks the VAST MAJORITY of claims (caps not an attack on you PP just emphasis) have made it through from my read!
Only claims 1 and 20 were killed here's the quote on the rest!
further ordered that the petitioner has NOT SHOWN by a preponderance of evidence that claims 2,3,7,8,11-18 and 20 are un patentable
Yes that I can confirm, mangrove ( a hedge fund) filed an IPR
Happens a lot, and they short the stock prior
I will agree on that but I think the issue is more about if the ptab has ruled or not
I see , I will research regardless but thanks for the clarification
I think the nuance you may be missing (and could be wrong) is in the vhc case, the ptab had not yet ruled so others could also file.
I think in our case because they will have ruled it's done
I don't believe companies get endless kicks at the can on patents which have been ruled upon.
Perhaps they can file on the claims that get through if they have new arguments for prior art, that's all I can understand, however one would assume the prior litigant would have scoured the earth for that.
I will research but logic tells me your view may be incorrect here
Can other infringers actually file an IPR on these patents once they've gone through it already and the ptab has ruled?
This would make no sense.
Son I'm long this stock. I'm just objective
If you have an issue with people being objective that's your issue not mine
I've Been in enough patent stocks to know, it never is a rosy as people love to paint
Does that mean we haven't had some positive news w some claims getting through? No it does not, but it also doesn't mean we should all be assumed 500 mil in damages either
The cancelling of claims WILL and DOES have an effect, as much as you may choose to ignore that important fact
Good luck
And nor do you or does anyone else here that's the point
Look, if you wanting to "win" is more important than people learning and knowing the facts that's ok
I deal in sharing information so that all are informed not trying to "win" for egos sake
I'm not sure you understand the relationship between claims and damages
You only pay damages on the "infringing" aspects . It's not like one claim is all you need for the full whammy
Fewer claims = lower damages unless a core patent gets through unscathed
Thus the reason I said no one here can accurately estimate
Sadly the issue is now with only certain claims through we can let make that same mathematical assessment. I'm not sure anyone here has the ability to understand the value left here. This is the hard part
Bungie would indeed be in the crosshairs as an infringer so this raises an interesting issue for them
1. Depending on the potential monetary impact of whatever claims may get through if it opens up potential for a material level of damages what do they do?
A. They are clearly acting as a proxy legally accepted or not, any blind mouse can see it
B. However, ATVI cannot indemnify them (I assume) as then the proxy issue is indeed proven
C. Thus, by standing pat and not settling they could get hit hard financially, but Bungie would not want that would they?
D. A bit of a bind for them I'd say (assuming the damages could be material) as their boss would want them to fight but won't be footing the bill if they lose
I think the key here is knowing what kind of damages we are talking about when all the IPRs are done. And even then it will be hard do any of us to know what that potential is given most here don't understand the technical nuances of patents to know how wddd can expect to win.
I agree - it's pp who's misunderstanding the legal fee arrangements
It's in the income statement and related notes
You're saying susman is paying Davidson Berquist right now? Where do you see this as fact? So what is the 400k (for six months ended June )in admin costs in our 10q for???!
400k is not public co costs and salaries (kidrin is separated on the income statement). Further, we can all see they've diluted to pay something beyond the converts.
Sorry champ wrong - if you read the notes you'll see I'm right
Fair enough and fair reasoning but susman is not involved right now. It's costing them nothing until DC resumes or CAFC appeals.
I also don't think they are going to be short sighted trying to minimize a short term small win vs a potential much larger win if they firmly believe they can win w the CAFC.
These appeals will happen regardless whomever wins so the cost will be the same to Susman
I don't buy the economic argument here
No, I think they have 7 years post patent expiration to file but could stand corrected. I do know it's a lot of time.... PP or flyers would know best
This is why it may make sense (at least to me) that wddd first goes to the CAFC (also as per flyers comments) vs going to DCourt now.
If susman feels Philips will reverse prior ptab decisions it would make sense to want to go to DCourt armed with more shots than fewer and having to come back
Just a logical and more efficient process so it makes more sense to me
I think that's incorrect. All the challenged claims of 998 were ruled for the plaintiff - thus suggesting all claims that impact value of the patent to wddd
I'd double check that
Yes and where did I say anything about the 998?
Wddd can certainly appeal 998 and any claims killed on this one today if that's where your confusion in my post lies
Ruling today was not 998 - a dif patent
Question.
Do you think given the issues w BRI vs Phillips that wddd will first appeal to the CAFC to see if they can recoup some wins from this nonsense prior to district court?
Assumption here (and could be wrong) is that those claims killed by the ptab can't be resurrected by the district court even with the markman can they? The only way would be for the CAFC to overturn first correct?
Just thinking through the machinations of strategy here for wddd and implications on value of the suits now and going forward
Not to mention the issues of real party in interest where clearly we've been hosed
It seems they used BRI again as well stating the patent expires on the 30th?
How come the dates on this site suggest the 13th. Seems they used this to pull a fast one on us.
This is going to create a cluster fack for sure on appeals as CAFC will use Philips
Thoughts?
This is positive news. What's interesting to me now is the following:
1. What can these 2 claims mean financially - this is the big question that none of us know the answer to
2. Also, I wonder if now that we have at least one claim this creates a cluster fack at he next level. Again, not a lawyer but how would the markman come into play now if at all? Ptab claim construction says one thing, markman says another, but both companies said they'd respect the rulings? A lot of confusion in my view
Key is however, value implications of course. Let's hope we see more rulings with more intact as we progress but as I said seems like the ptab wants to at least "handcuff" wddd to some extent
Also, I wonder if we appeal to CAFC on the patents / claims that don't make it through? A lot of moving parts here!
There's no "set date" on how long appeals take as they can take many different processes
In our case - if we have to appeal we appeal to the CAFC. I think we have a certain amount of time to "file" an appeal - it may be sixty days? The CAFC website probably has the rules there somewhere, or search on the web, this is readily available information.
Then it goes through the process of filing briefs etc, then needs to be accepted, and if so then heard / argued and eventually ruled on. This process takes 6-8 months if we use VRNG as a proxy. Again, probably lots on the web on typical timelines if you dig.
It then depends on what they rule. In our case i am not sure if the CAFC would remand back to the ptab or reverse and then it goes to district court.
If we win, then we go to district court. so depending on who wins, 2 different paths
I think you're simply experiencing what I did, the "actual" realization that how ever many times we say it's a "gamble", one never bets on a gamble assuming they could lose lol, just the psychology of it.
As It did recently to me, I think the acceptance of the reality that this could be a gamble that actually loses (thus the definition of gamble lol) has hit you!
Still a dice roll and always was... let's hope we find a way through
I would hope you "got what I meant". Bungie / ATVI all the same doesn't matter who the "real party" is at the district court level - issues are still the same / relevant relative to the ptab ruling
No Bungie has not been named as a "real party in interest" at the district court level if we need to play the game of semantics here
If they (Bungie) had been, the case at the ptab would be over and in our favor since ATVI was time barred from filing an IPR and they would have been party to that. Stating the obvious here
Good catch, my error. I thought I had missed that in the ruling that has come down but just reread Gibsons post and realize he was talking about the decision to "institute" the IPR on 998
You are correct. I suppose my comments still hold assuming some claims are upheld on he remaining patents but that is to be determined!
Thanks for catching that error
We do need one claim to "make it through" the ptab and as you've mentioned one did make it through.
So technically we could go to District Court but here are the issues - some of which you've raised already
1. That one claim making it through - how does that translate monetarily for WDDD in a court win. This is key and you mentioned it. If the ptab just cut off our legs and arms and we're still alive but basically on life support it may not translate into much monetarily. I don't think any of us are capable of estimating the value from that claim. We do know they killed some major ones.
2. Given the BRI use vs Philips and despite the PTABs assertion that their arguments hold water with either claim construction method-well I'd be surprised if the CAFC saw it the same way, especially after District Court who used Philips saw it very differently.
3. How wddd plays this is obviously dependent on what happens w the remaining patents and how much they and their counsel think whatever claims remaining are worth and odds of Bungie finding an out in court.
4. My guess is the ptab wanted to put the risk of damages so low that wddd is in a tough position. Go to court and take less or take a risk w the CAFC who (depending on the judges) may or may not overturn the claim construction they suggested and their ruling.
Nice diligence and good topics to raise
Any time RVLT moves above 6.50-6.75 range perfect short opportunity all!
Look at the chart and fundamental valuation
In fact he valuation doesn't even support anything in the 5's but traders often ignore fundamentals
Good luck!
Fundamentals of RVLT don't support a valuation in he sixes- perfect short and a low volume stock- easy to chart and use as a guide to make money here