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Sure, its an investment for me. Looking for eventually, getting fair value or consideration for the rights that have been ripped from the shareholders. Yes, i believe there has been a taking and i believe after 15 years its, ripe. After the dust settled on the crazy period of 2008 or so.. it became clear they used it as cover to steal the gse's from the shareholders. Its sad that the corruption and collusion of the government has perpetuated the cover-up of the steal.
What should happen should have happened a decade ago. And since there are no honest people in government that take responsibility for fixing the charade our only hope is that the mountain will be so high that they'll have to consider actually doing the right thing.
The right thing means commons will be worth $125+ per share (probably more) and prefs trade back to near face value and discounted / premium for yield. Getting government out of the gse's business would encompass returning excess money while noting the sps as fully compensated, voiding the warrants and relisting the entities. Then move internally, setting up a real board of directors w/ the Fhfa having some C-suite level guidance.
The problem here is government is greedy. They've been gyrating to consider how to squeeze every dollar out of these golden gooses they can... and that includes crushing not only the common by the jr prefs. Its a scorched earth approach and the government is good at it.
So, sure i am an investor... i am looking forward to getting 3% dividends annually on $150 share common... to supplement my retirement cash flow - with some of it in Roth IRA. Would be nice to get like $10,000 a quarter tax free. Gonna cruise often and play a lot of golf ... And if it all goes up in smoke it will because of the government corruption but won't really hinder my retirement.
Statute means less than the constitution which doesn't mean much here; as government has done whatever it wants.
As for shares of common... Yes, I own shares, only common and enough that if fair value occurs its plenty. The great thing is.... even if we all get wiped out... its not going to change my trajectory. ie. less than 1% of net worth. And i've been in this trade since 2008 and was one of the first to recognize the cookie jar accounting going on - as i rolled the loan loss provisions and it was clear they were making it up. Between that and the deferred taxes. Anyway, I've also clearly stated, the the government has committed a fraud, since they control the companies and have rights to 79.9% of the shares, they should be on the national debt. I was first introduced to fannie and freddie in the 80's and i am well aware of what they do, how they do it, and what their real risks are. Which is why all the lunacy of replacing them has been garbage.. in that they provide liquidity into the markets and level the playing field which allows competition in 30 year mortgage lending. Look at it this way, their lending in 2005-2008 was problematic... but all the other years prior weren't... So people with existing mortgages were performing and amortizing their debt while the newer ones were in trouble; but not all of them; and they were collateralized. The problem was Fannie and Freddie were being required to reserve 100% of the loans, instead of lesser %'s (there was realestate under them anyway) So the government, created false losses... It was so easy to see.
but, i digress... anyway,
And, if its governments desire to crush commons... they'll certainly crush prefs; makes no sense to leave the hedge funds whole and eviscerate the little guys.
Except...
The GSE's... never failed.
They were never illiquid and never suffered cash deficiency.
They were always cash positive from operations throughout all of the silliness the government put upon them... Proof, yet they didn't need government intervention.
Thank you for finally agreeing.
Yes they can. And nobody can do anything about it.
As we've learned... nothing they do is illegal / unconstitutional until proven / prosecuted and found to be such.. otherwise... its just what it is.
Wish it weren't the case... but wishing is the only option we all have left.
Time to unit and understand if commons get screwed so do prefs...
Maybe the point was missed... a whifff.... if you will.
Government has screwed commons and prefs in conservatorship and can finish the job IF they want to.
Understand the concepts and phrases... "best interest of the public it serves" and ALL rights = ALL Rights there are no exceptions. The concept of less than all rights was already plead and it failed.
There is simply no need to trivial with receivership as they already have all the power they need. Its window dressing... red herring.... they've done whatever they've wanted and acted with malice.. they don't care about prefs any more than commons.
Just understand that... government .. they simply don't care.
They are greedy.
Stop already, just admit that you are wrong and move along on the topic.
Fact is and its unproven otherwise; that the government can do whatever it wants.
Nothing has stopped them from this at and from the very institution of Hera...
Hera provided them complete cover to run all over shareholders for their very own self serving benefit and the only way prefs or commons will get diddly is if they allow it.
Let that reality set in.
Now, do i believe that eventually they'll do some right thing... yes. Why, because they need out of this mess and to compound and continue complicating it with needless graft and corruption ... isnt necessary.
No they don't have to screw everyone they've gotten their piece been bullies and gotten their way. They've reshaped the businesses and a simple solution would be best.
Neither prefs or commons need to be against each other the way many seem pitted.
So, regardless of what you write or point to ... i could easily point to the 5th amendment takings clause as a clear violation; means anything because the courts haven't upheld anything of substance. Truth over fiction and dreaming... the government will not be forced to do the right thing. The lackey Roberts won't allow it.
However, eventually, they very well may do the right thing and if they do, prefs will get $$ and commons will get $$; but until then, prefs can just as easily be screwed; without a receivership or bankruptcy or anything else... a mere stroke of the pen is all it takes.
That is fact and reality. Sorry to burst the bubble....
Haven't the lawsuits taught anything?
The government is teflon... nothing sticks.
They can do anything they want and nobody can successfully challenge them becuae its a stacked deck.
Receivership isn't necessary to screw the prefs... all they have to do ... is do it.
But will they?
This is why all the bickering with or between common and preferred is silly. Cause simply the government can ... because they have ALL the rights of all the shareholders... and contracts to them mean nothing.
So yes they can scew everyone... equally.
Don't believe it... just watch...
lol....
100% wrong..
You are completely and absolutely 100% wrong.
Fact is Government CAN do whatever they want here. There is / are / nor have been any restrictions and the law and judicial findings are on their side.
Understanding this will set you free to understand that the only thing that will stop them is
themselves and what they determine.
Its a sad reality... but preferreds could be as screwed as commons and frankly, worse, because they mistakenly thought they were protected and they are simply not.
That is the reality.
What will it look like?
Receivership
Nope...
All they have to do is propose it and agree to it on behalf of all the jps shareholders... and there is nothing anyone can do about it.... sorry JPshareholders... your "contract" isn't worth ... shinola...
Not so fast there Sir https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/4617
Not so fast... again FHFA / Treasury can do what ever they want and lambert has already said this.... ALL rights are all rights... what you posted has no standing in the discussion... FHFA can do what's in the best interest of the public it serves and they can decide solely what that may be. its iron clad.... JPS can easily be screwed... just like commons.
You completely support why...
The best feasible resurection of the GSE's would involve the government recognizing the repayment of the money lent to them and no warrant exercise. While they are owed more back for what was overpaid. if they stop before returning all of it (plus interest) then they can raise $350B less capital and get the companies back to the shareholders.
What they could do would be take an annual fee of say 2-3 Billion ... for some reason...
Doing this ... gets them out of gov. control without having to raise excess billions; but instead $50 or so..
The government can crush the jps as the see fit. Will they, yes. Because if they don't then they'll allow all the hedgefunds to be enriched from a smart investment and because they can.
What will it look like?
Again, if the government consents to crush shareholders they'll crush all shareholders because they can.
I've read many say... blah blah blah... jps have a contract... can't violate that have to adhere to the contract... well, the government ... can do and will do whatever it wants; without regard to this contract. Why because they can and have done so in the past... remember the Senior Debt holders of the car companies, that had a "security" intterest get nothing??? And they give the unions a %'s of the company?? Yep, contract ... contract didn't mean a thing.
So, how can governement do this... anyway they want... becuase the judges have already said they ascended to ALL the rights of the shareholders... all being all.. so, yep, they can redeem the shares at say 1/1000 of face as one example or convert $50 pref to 0.67 common share... again... they can do it...
All they have to do is propose it and agree to it on behalf of all the jps shareholders... and there is nothing anyone can do about it.... sorry JPshareholders... your "contract" isn't worth ... shinola...
The best hope you all have... is to bond with commons to get the gse's out of this mess and release them without the warrants and sps paid in full at a minimum.
Sadly...
You really don't know if this is true..
with that one out of the way, the commons are left with nothing and the government will dilute them with warrants and spspa, and cannot touch preferreds unless it uses receivership, which it wont
Frankly, if the government can steal darn near 100% of the value of the company, they then can steal near 100% of your preferred. Since they have rights to vote for the preferred shares they could decide to take the following deal... They'll agree to redeem the preferreds for 1/1000's of their face value. And if they decide to offer that deal... they can on behalf of the preferred holders accept that deal and its done. They don't have to ask permission since by virtue of hera and their scheme they have ALL of the rights of the shareholders ...
Don't believe... it... lambert already said they can do whatever they want and if its in the best interest of the public they serve in their sole and absolute discretion... it'll be.
And not a thing that anyone can do about it... the judges have already said so...
...
Now... would that be right? Nope ... but it doesn't have to be... it just has to get done.
so...
Saying what won't happen... is an awful lot of crow to be eaten...
as it surely could....
We as in all shareholders common and pref... are hopeful the government eventually does the honorable thing... just don't count on it willingly happening...
That's the government ... they can do whatever they want and they have all the time in the world and judges in their pocket.
The concept of temporary of longer than 1 year ... upto 15 is a new accounting theory... not sure it was the intention... but the courts have validated it.
I'd really like to tell the congress rep about the issues here but... i tried 14 years ago and got a blow off letter... the senators i wrote to were just as ignorant. And now... not a chance as the current congress rep here is a complete idiot and the senators are shills.. .
Shame is... they are just not very intelligent. So.... tell them... they won't listen and couldnt comprehend it anyway.
Interestingly...
Very wrong.
Consolidating is actually necessary at much lower levels of ownership if "control" exists. What is control? Usually it means the ability to manage the entity and direct its business.
Using the GAAP Standard the government should have consolidated these entities since the outset of the conservatorship on the basis of material effective interest (79.9%) as determined by the warrants that were taken by the government and the "control" granted by Hera taking the rights to the control of the company.
Oops... did i mention "Taking".... oh... TAKINGS?
Yep... exactly what it was... a taking...
they had no investment-backed expectation -
who are they to say what our or my expectation is or would be? What stupidity.
its unfathomable that all this smoke and no fire?
How can they do what they did and it not be theft?
Creates some crazy kind of standard for the next in line.
Apple... Google... Mircrosoft? All systemic risks even face book and twitter.
the corruption here is amazing.
all good until..
admin should recognize the value
that is an admission he believes in theft.. and to me that would make him no better than any other shill on the subject.
Sure he's an advocate and does some good things... but he fails to recognize the theft and that's where i stop supporting his version.
He's endorsing theft...
That isn't right..
He has some background knowledge but is blinded by something. He does not stand for the common person - those who believe that commons were "sold" to the public and in doing so the consideration of that payment or value created a simple contract that is passed to each repurchaser of shares. The basic beliefs and rights come with it. When the directors and officers violated that trust or since these are government sponsored entities, when government steals from those like this... taking property (physical $$) and rights (intangibles) or usurping them (voting rights an such) for absolutely NO negotiation of consideration... that is theft and an absolute taking.
Those that can not or will not see it - like Tim ... probably have an ulterior motive; perhaps like government / SCOTUS and other judges... if they came clean and said... yeah i see it but not going to allow it because of government pays my way... or my pension... or whatever...
Fact is there are quite a few uneducated and unintelligent people in this world... having to deal with them is at times intolerable when they control the levers to freedom and justice.
Obviously anything is possible...
however, its incredibly unlikely the commons become worthless and considering that the government is using them without paying for them... you'd think there should be some enourmous value.
As to raising new money... in the current situation ... it won't happen.. Something will have to change and if the government takes whats not theirs... i see no practical way they get new suckers to take their place.
At some point... reason has to prevail.
in a business to business loan ...
the interest rate can be what ever you agree to
in the business to consumer (individual) there are usury laws.
Had the loans been allowed to be repaid at reasonable rates in place at the time ... loans that were never needed... but shoved at the twins ... they'd have been fully repaid and massive equity on the books of the two.
Better yet ... had the loans never been forced on them... had they been able to act independently, they'd have been massively profitable and the country would be in a much better place today.
What gets me... is they say... fhfa can do what ever it wants as n the "best nterest of the public it serves" without paying for the privilege of using the resoureces taken from private individuals to serve the public interest. ie.. the judges have said do whatever.. but ignore the whatever with what is not theirs to use since its not been paid for.
What i'd like them to do is pay for what tools they've taken ... $150/share would be a good starting point.
Could Apple or Google be next?
They provide systemic risk.. probably best to put them in conservatorship.
Anyone that suggests the government should steal 80% of these companies should be shunned.
Sorry Mr. Howard; there is no viable reason to write a narrative as you did and then remotely consider they should get away with the heist...
Like letting the crooks sell the candy they stole for profit.
Or those that steal from a pawn shop and then let them keep the goods.
probalby good to recognize that someone actually is aware of the problem in the exec. branch of government and thatn it shouldn't go on for ever and ever and ever.
not sure what will happen... what should won't because the government is greedy... but there is hope that ....
we could get fair value or 20-25% of it. Which is still $30-45 a share common.
But when...
Just got to figure...
eventually... don't know when... but eventually, guberment will grow tired of screwing the shareholders or want to cash out $$ and do something right and figure themselves out of the wet paper bag they've got themselves in...
eventually...
What gets me...
is common stock ownership is a contract.
We paid money consideration for ownership of our shares.
if there were no contract then... as seen many many times ... you have shareholder class action lawsuits for lots of things. against normal companies and stuff. Happens all the time.
why? because selling shares of your company create a duty on the company to be and do "right" and when they don't they get sued.
So there is a contract and that duty transfers with each and every share to each new owner throughout time.
With that ownership come rights.
When those rights are taken... compensaton must be paid.
our cournty is / was founded on laws and the constitution.
How the government can take what is not theirs without compensation is theft.
Theft should be punished.
"
not gonna happen.
the recent price is the price because government is inept.
The warrants expire... if the fhfa and treasury want them too.
it wouldn't surprise me if the cheating lying stealing government doesn't extend them "temporarily" or ie... indefinitely... to what ever they decide in their sole best interest because they are allowed to screw shareholders without compensation.
So... what is in the best interest... who decides... who knows...
Some could say the NWS is really not in the best interst of the public... why ... because it keeps the twins as wards of the state....
is that in the best interest?
Seems people should / could challenge what is or isn't in the best interest.
Also is the whole conservatorship in the best interst?? probably not... its been 15 years is it really in their best interst? probably not....
how about $120 psp
As fair.
This is laughable..
last i saw 2022 started with the gov stealing from fannie and freddie and the public at large including shareholders... to ending the year doing the same.
So is that the opposite of serving??? by stealing... so stealing is the new serving...
hey, let me hold that for you so you don't have it.... its me saving you from you....
i guess we all could go in to the local bank, grocery store, etc. and take a few things to save so that the owners don't have to bother disposing of them??? how nice of us...
let me hold that for you... see i am helping you.
What utter clowns..
Release fannie and freddie atop the theft.
Net of interest on the excess takings; probably be around 125 billion owed and growing.
There is always a reason or an excuse not to do something positive here.
Not enough time. too hard.. bad karma... someone spilled the milk... yada yada..
But, come on ya'll just get it done. Release them and do the honorable thing.
What's the reason ... to just get it done!
As a Variable Interest Entity ... the fed should be consolidating them with the financial records of the US since they exercise control and have the right to own a significant interest.
Robert,
The takings actually go all the way back to the enactment of hera. its been gradual taking of rights without compensation.
This has essentially been stated a gazillion times here. That the first step forward in a path of reconciliation is self recognition and actions of contrition on behalf of the government towards the owners.
Its kind of interesting the only method for them to take "over" would be to file bankruptcy and they only way to be insolvent is for the government to take or finish stealing their assets; seems self serving. They'd have to find another judge to be on the take... (that shouldn't be hard after lammy and they other one or two).
There are a lot of investors that only care about the future and ignore the past; many with lots of money so they'll buy up the governments promises; but the professional money likely wouldnt touch any offering without the proper treatment and known risks. Personally, i still don't get the gm thing where the government changed the order of debt waterfall and screwed the secured holders. But they got a way with it... maybe that legacy is playing here... investors don't trust government.
Lots of reaping ans sowing... going on.
its theft... call the police...
but yes i get it.
maybe we ought call police then
This is a big lie.