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Lol, AMD's 'dividend' is the superior performance/price product
and socket longevity, both of which I have personally benefited from.
Good for you. Do you speak for all AMD investors, or do you suppose a portion of them might have a different opinion? I am glad that you seem to be satisfied with the way AMD is using your money. Congratulations.
Semi
The winner is: BX80532PG3200E
Wow...... P4 3.2 Northwood won a Google Fight against 3.4 Northwood Extream Edition. That 0.13u Process Northwood data sure proves to me......... Nothing about 0.09u Prescott.
Feb 2 is less than 2 weeks away. I can wait. Also, I thought there was an agreement not to bring up Prescott speed availability until then. Why do you guys keep doing it? Oh, right, overclockers.ru, and overclockers.uk, I forgot.
BTW, Thanks for sharing.
Semi
AMD shareholders decided (or at least they did not protest) that all money dedicated to devidents will be reinvested into new 65 nm fab. As the stock tripled from 52-weeks low, they decided to settle with that for the time being.
So, you can't even remember the last time, eh? Thought so. Poor Poor intel, been paying dividends every year since...... well since I can remember. Maybe you guys could get one, if Jerry gave up his Limo.
And as far as what "The AMD Shareholders decided" (or did not protest), you know this......How? When did you contact the shareholders on this? Was that how you voted in that Proxy?? Remind me, when was that vote taken again? Also, It seems that you are OK with no dividends until the Fab is paid for. Good for you.
BTW, I'm very impressed that the AMD shareholders elected you to speak for them. Congratulations, I'm sure there are no short termers who feel differently.
Semi
Ignore them at your peril.
They are among the top five UK online ordering sites and always have the latest parts.
Newegg is not advertising any Prescott at all. I'm sure since they are so frequently quoted on this board and on SI, they would certainly qualify as a distributor of "the latest parts" here in the US, under the same parameters that you describe for your UK distributor. Since Newegg isn't advertising any Prescotts, then by your logic, I guess that means there won't be any Prescott at all in the US on Feb 2.
I'm glad we pinned that one down, forcasting intel output by looking at pre-launch advertisements on the web. I see the "logic" in that now, that was escaping me before. Based on the offered data, and subsequent analysis, I have come to the conclusion that I should certainly give your opinions all the consideration that I think they're due. Thanks for sharing.
Semi
Let me see if I have got this right.....
Thanks, but no thanks.
Remind me, when was the last time AMD paid any dividend, and how much was it?
Semi
Afraid so. The fat ladies are singing and the song is no 3.4 Ghz Prescott !
Oh..... now I see, overclockers.uk is not advertising it. Shoot, why didn't you just say so...... Gee, I guess that sure settles it........ Not. I guess we'll see who's right on Feb 2, won't we.
Semi
And ofcourse when the new grantsdale motherbooards (915?) come out with the PCI express graphics cards and DDRII they will have absouletly no preformance advantage over the old socket 478 875/865 systems they are just an other intel ploy to cool those hot prescotts and screw the early adopters of high preformance systems.
Of course, I'm glad we've gotten all that straight now. Back to our regularly scheduled Programming.......
GO AMD!
Semi
Yeah Semi, but you really don't thing its going to be competitive with an athalon 64 3400 do you. LOL
Of course not. Intel wouldn't delay the initial release of Prescott, get all that bad PR, go back and rework it, and make sure that the second time they got it right. Nope....... forget that.
Semi
Inquirer has 3.4 prescott.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13738
Can't be..... 3.4 will be a paper launch on Feb 2, haven't you been paying attention to this board? I've been reading here for the past week, that since overclockers.ru says they're not going to be available, then obviously they're not. And that stuff about the Inq getting it up to 4GHz? B.S., everyone here "knows" that 2.8 is the upper limit on the restepping, otherwise, a 4.0Ghz Overclock would mean jump from overclockers "report" of 3.2GHz, to 3.4GHz at launch would be easily doable, even at a higer power, so ignore that too, it didn't happen.
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=2165836
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=2165948
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=2166216
Semi
SemiconEng - I thought you were still using chicken entrails?!
;)
Paul
Actually, I swap off with "Tea Leaves", because afterwards, I get to drink the tea!
Semi
Semi, I was just guessing that P4EE would be shut off
And you´re wrong about that, as you´ll see fairly soon. Pricewatch currently has some technical difficulties with P4 models, that´s all. Search them manually. I got a good laugh out of Dan thinking this would indicate production problems on INTEL´s side! :)
Keith
Ahhhhhhh, that makes more sense. So, Dan was down on intel? Shocking....... Simply shocking, I wouldn't have guessed. So, does that mean then that my "Voodoo Bone Method", IS still as valid as Price Watch......watching?? Whew, good thing, I thought I lost my touch for a second.
Semi
Pricewatch is very interesting now. Check it, P4 is almost gone. It looks like Intel is preparing for very massive Prescott deployment. I never saw shelves so empty before...
Now, not that I'm one to brag or anything....... OK I am one to brag...... Did I call that one, or what!
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=2098516
More likely, as soon as 3.4 Prescott ships, P4EE will be shut off, and in a few months, after Prescott is established, and the line is purged, nobody is going to care anymore about P4EE, if they ever did to begin with.
Looks to me, like intel is once again using the same method to drive the market away from the previous technology to the newer one that it's used before. Price pointing the newer chip below the top of the line previous chip has been done by intel a few times now, as I recall.
My guess is, that most P4 Northwood production, will all be a memory by the end of summer 2004.
OK, I was just guessing that P4EE would initially be shut off, not all Northwood, that would be a bigger push then I expected, so....... I don't know if I would go so far to believe that. After all, you know how guessing output/yield numbers works, based on Pricewatch data, right? I got some voodoo bones I shake and toss that equals it.
Semi
Now, not that I'm one to brag or anything....... OK I am one to brag...... Did I call that one, or what!
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=2098516
More likely, as soon as 3.4 Prescott ships, P4EE will be shut off, and in a few months, after Prescott is established, and the line is purged, nobody is going to care anymore about P4EE, if they ever did to begin with.
Looks to me, like intel is once again using the same method to drive the market away from the previous technology to the newer one that it's used before. Price pointing the newer chip below the top of the line previous chip has been done by intel a few times now, as I recall.
My guess is, that most P4 Northwood production, will all be a memory by the end of summer 2004.
OK, I was just guessing that P4EE would be shut off, not all Northwood, so....... I don't know if I would go that far to believe that. You know how basing output/yield is, based on Pricewatch, right? I got some voodoo bones I shake and toss that equals it.
Semi
Are these figures a combination of expected lower yield * larger die size ? AMD have said that their SOI yields are the same as bulk now in their IEDM2003 report and 1Mb K8 is only 2 * K7 diesize and 512kb K8 is only 1.5 * K7.
Maybe, Maybe not. Can I translate that Process speak for a moment..... though?
"When the relative yield rates are normalized, the yields from the 130nm SOI process are now roughly equal to that of the 130nm bulk process.
Translation: "Relative" is the operative word. Except for the Tool Process window excursions, and the misprocesses, and the tool issues, and everything else bad that usually happen during normal processing is eliminated, everything works relatively pretty much like they did on 130nm. But don't ask if, and/or what, issues we're having on SOI are worse, or more frequent.
The yield rate is tracked on a weekly basis, and for a given week, the normalized yield rate on the 130nm SOI could even be better than that of the normalized yield rate of the 130nm bulk process."
Translation: And as a matter of fact, sometimes, we have a really really darned good week yieldwise, and when we pick that week, it "could" even be better then a week we pick on 130nm process.
Maybe they do have it working just fine, and I'm wrong, but it's been my experience, that people usually don't insert the word "relative", unless the numbers don't really match. Grain of salt statements IMO.
Semi
duplicate
Agreed. You are actually OK once your full character is revealed, perhaps my earlier judgement of you was .... hasty.
Peace .
Whew......, Thank God....... Or whoever.
Peace
Semi
I guess "sombodies" PM advice of "try one more time, with an olive branch, instead of a sword this time", really was wisdom unto itself. Thank you. Ignores undone (yeah, even Andy).
He had a recent encounter with my goodself ..........
Now, Now...... I'm trying...... real hard...... to be nice today...... Much better, don't you think? Do you, or for that matter, Does ANYBODY really want to go back down that path again? No, I didn't think so. IMO, it's probably best for anybody, not to publicly make fun of anybody, at this point, even if it's meant in the nicest possible way. No sense taking a chance of throwing gasoline on a fire that's pretty much died out, right?
Semi
I think this time with the transition to 90 AMD best and worst scenarios are much better than a while ago with transition to 130 nm. Then the chice was between chapter 11 and survival. Now worst case is survaval, best acse is...
Sure, but I hope for youse guys sake... (Original NY'er), That AMD doesn't get into the same fat/lazy "we're invincible" mode that intel is so often accused of being in........in the past...... A64 certainly appears strong out of the gate at this point, no doubt. Remind me........ How long is this race anyway? Competition is good.
Semi
OT:Semi,
No s**t. I registered just so I could ask whats up with that?
ajb
SNOWBALLS..... GET YOUR SNOWBALLS...... REAL CHEAP! Get em while they last....... Cause you probably won't be seeing them........ Again.
Semi
sgolds,
They have been building up their manufacturing to the extent that they can be profitable at a lower price point, and they seem to be designing a product to match.
No way that was the intention.
Joe
I agree, it wasn't the intention, IMO. Most likely, intel expected to be using their manufacturing capacity right now to be cranking out 90nm Prescotts, with 130nm most likely taking over whatever they were currently running on their previous 180nm Process. Everything should have been switched up 1 process by now IMO. When that didn't work out, looks to me like intel ended up with 0.13u, Northwood 3.4EE instead. I don't think anyone can argue that intel originally planned to do that, after everyone already knows that P4EE was a response to AMD.
Semi
mas, AMD's 90nm looks trouble-free
That´s probably why it has been delayed another two to three months last year already, and the 90nm demonstration samples were running @ 800Mhz, according to Anand? Sorry, but at this point, I don´t share Charlie´s view, at all. The 130nm episode has taught me that lesson, and as long as AMD hasn´t at least distributed samples at realistic clockspeeds, I won´t believe it. Of course it´s much better hearing good things about it, than bad.
Keith
On the other hand, while it would be nice to get high speed parts with the first die on a new Process, generally most of the people involved, are satisfied to get working parts for the first full-loop lots. As far as that goes, AMD seems to have succeeded so far, which bodes well for them at this point, although I agree with you, I wouldn't go so far as to say it looks "trouble free". If the perceived issues you describe, are Process related, rather then design/layout related, and 6 months is the timeframe, then AMD's P.E.'s better be putting in some overtime.
Semi
BTW, you might want to bookmark this......... Me, sticking up for AMD....... That noise you just heard was the ice forming in The House Of Hades.
Six Million For 2004 . . .
XbitLabs reports that AMD will make slightly less than six million desktop Hammers in 2004. All of 2004.
Just to put that number in perspective, total AMD CPU production is a bit over thirty million CPUs in a year.
What does this mean? If these numbers are accurate, that means Hammer won't become AMD's mainstream processor until 2005. For practical purposes, Hammer will be introduced into the CPU mainstream at 90nm. These 130nm CPUs are just a prequel to the main event................
What are these people doing?
Not even I can believe the corporate execs at AMD are quite this stupid/incompetent. Circumstances must be forcing them into this approach. We pointed out a number of possibilities why this might be the other day.
Whatever the exact reasons may be, for practical purposes Hammer has been delayed as AMD's mainstream processor for at least another six months.
http://www.overclockers.com/articles933/
Semi
Slightly Off Topic: Sadaam's Capture Pics
Did you hear about those Photo's of Sadaam's Capture?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/15/saddam.photos/index.html
Although CNN has not independently verified the authenticity or source of the photos, they do appear genuine, according to a senior U.S. government official.
I found someone who posted them on Yahoo:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tom7259/album?.dir=/Saddam%27s+Capture+Photos
Cool Pics..... If they're real.
Semi
For SemiconEng's benefit: just my humble opinion.
You must have me mixed up with someone else. FYI, I can pretty easily tell the difference between what is data, and what is opinion, but thanks for singling me out. I really "appreciate" it.
BTW, Humble? Ummmmmm......... Never mind.
Regards,
Semi
Perhaps I did it in the wrong way
I wasn't offended at all by your post.
Thanks,
Semi
Semi, you're missing out.
wbmw
Yeah...... I'm missing out on all of DRBES posts.........
I'm also missing out on all of Niceguys posts too...........
So What.
Semi
yb - need a good laugh? Look at this!
Sorry, it comes up as "This Message Is Ignored". Not interested in changing the settings. Thanks for the Heads Up anyway.
Semi
If you were looking down the barrel of Opteron, and knowing that AMD does have the manufacturing ability to serve the entire Xeon market (if they ignore desktops), wouldn't you be worried?
I think the more important question a person should be asking themselves is, "Wouldn't you be doing something about it"?
Do you suppose intel asked themselves this too?
Semi
Semi, the second guy. Not bad :) (eom)
Keith
Ha. I was surprised........ Not. Thanks for the smile.
Semi
The Billion Dollar qustion is there any way for AMD to use this excess capacity in Semi plants to their advantage without muti billion dollar outlays for their own plants. How hard would this be? Any ideas?
If the foundry fabs used all the same equipment that the process was developed on (less likely), then the transfer would be relatively easy, if the foundry had equipment from a different supplier (more likely), then most likely, some tweaking of the equipment and/or supply chemicals would need to be done for each Manufacturing Process step, that the foundry was processing with different equipment. There are usually multiple Processing steps for each Layer, and multiple Layers in a chip.
The time it would take to do that, would depend on how much process difference there was between the 2 tools designated to process the same Layer Process step. IF the tweaking was minor, and IF the number of Process Steps and Layers that needed to be tweeked were few, and IF they were able to achieve decent yields, before the market window passed them by, then it theoretically could be done. IF not........ Then you could be throwing away allot of time and money, for nothing. That sure looks like allot of IF's...... I think there are too many variables to be cost effective enough to invest the time/money to try it.
IMO
Semi
IA-32 EL is supported in Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition for 64-Bit Itanium-based Systems; Windows Server 2003 Datacenter Edition for 64-Bit Itanium-based Systems; and Windows XP 64-Bit Edition. The software is available for download at http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/ipf/default.mspx
wbmw
Awesome, It's about time.
Semi
My point was more to highlight AMD strategy. They create a special king-of-the-hill processor at fixed $700 price point. This is quite important. They let PC manufacturers and PC entusiasts to know that there is always a fastest PC CPU on the market and it costs exactly $700, now and forever. And it is only one, there is no cheaper or more expensive breeds. And there is no other models from other vendors to match it.
That will let each PC manufacturer to introduce a special top model, which is not very configurable, but it is one and it may have a fixed name and fixed price. Educated customers will know the price and the speed of this ultimate PC and will use it as a standard metric of current state-of-the-art PC market.
Ahhhhh......... PR/Marketing. Well, I agree, AMD could sure use some improvement there, no doubt. Good luck to them, with their "Strategy".
Semi
Semi, I can't compare FX-53 with Prescott, because it's just not here. Will it be equivalent to Prescott 3.8 Ghz? I don't know, no benchmarks yet.
Don't know. Notice I didn't say that you were wrong for comparing it to Northwood, just that after Feb 2, that Northwood argument would be irrelevant. Intel has stated that it wants Prescott to displace Northwood, so I don't think that too many desktop PC fans, are going to care about Northwood anymore after that, even if intel continues to make Northwood for the desktop, which they probably won't. I should point out BTW, that the configuration that you specifically quoted for FX-53 isn't out either, and won't be on Feb 2, only March 29, but I digress.
The relative performance of Prescott over Northwood and/or Athlon, has inflamed this thread recently, and I'm not interested in going back there, thank you. I think I'll just wait until Feb 2. It's only ~3 weeks away. Then we'll all know what's what. Right?
Semi
Semi, hm. But Athlon FX is here to stay. In March 29, it will get a socket 939 with non-registered ram, and is expected to match Northwood 4 Ghz.
Maybe Intel has to stop stupid jokes, bring P4EE price down to $700 level and sell it for real?
Ups, no L3 in Prescott... I'm sorry.
Or, on Feb 2, which is 2 Months prior to March 29, intel can introduce Prescott 3.4E at a lower price point, than Northwood P4EE, making P4EE, even less attractive, so that they can shut off P4EE production at 0.13u ASAP, Dump Northwood, and use that additional capacity for something else, making the Northwood Comparison Argument irrelevant. But thanks for pointing out the other side of the coin, even as a less attractive option. I sure appreciate it. Thanks.
Semi
BTW, I doubt there will be a 4GHz Northwood. just my opinion
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/stocktalk/msg.gsp?msgid=19687282
I thought that the current argument was that there weren't any P4EE available, Now the story has changed to, they are available, but not selling? I thought intel said that P4EE was aimed at the Enthusiast Niche Market, and not expected to sell in large numbers, so this is pretty much what I expected. I wonder if intel communicated that message sufficiently to the resellers? In any case.....
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=2098516
And as far as bad PR, So What. The bad PR is already out. Everyone already knows that P4EE was a stopgap intel used because they couldn't get Prescott out the door on time. It was all over the web, did you miss that? More likely, as soon as 3.4 Prescott ships, P4EE will be shut off, and in a few months, after Prescott is established, and the line is purged, nobody is going to care anymore about P4EE, if they ever did to begin with.
Semi
dougSF30, would AMD slow the 90nm process transition because of software? I think so. Here are my reasons:
1. New processes take a while to reach mature yields. At first they are more expensive than old processes. AMD may be able to work out some bringup yield issues on pilot lines while it is delayed, saving money overall, but at first 90nm K8 product will be more expensive than the 130nm K7 product it replaces.
A New Process is usually a whole lot more expensive. The Process startups that I've done. If anyone mentioned what a certain task or procedure would cost, everyone looks at them like they're stupid. For the most part, from the meetings I've been in, Management doesn't give a squat about what a new process costs, just make it work. They're going to sell the chips at premium prices to start with anyway. Cost reduction through process improvement, alternate sources, and increasing efficiencies is my job. Whether AMD would slow a process, for software though I don't know, but your expense point is valid for New Processes.
Semi
Semicon, I believe I read that over half the IBM patents are related to software.
Thanks, In that case, I wonder if maybe some of those patents could be.... Process Control Software, related? Since I recall hearing AMD mentioning quite a bit of progress in Automated Process Control, and since AMD seems to be a champion at using other peoples ideas (I meant that as a compliment). Just trying to get a feel for the IBM/AMD big picture. It would make sense for AMD/IBM to use the same Manufacturing Software, IMO, since I also recall reading somewhere else, that AMD plans to follow something similar to copy exactly, between East Fiskill and F36, and I was just curious if there were any further new reported advances in APC.
Semi
On second thought, I was probably too mocking. Not wanting to throw gasoline on a fire...... Post deleted by poster.
SemiconEng, Jerry R, patents -
I notice that IBM (as usual) is #1. Since AMD and IBM are working so closely together it would seem that AMD is relying more heavily on IBM patents.
Sure they will. I would, wouldn't you? Now see..... How easy it is for people to respond to the content instead of the poster? (Were you watching Jules?)
No doubt AMD will benefit from any IBM Semiconductor Design/Manufacturing Patents, that IBM submits. I wonder, based on how widespread IBM's tentacles are, how many of those IBM patents were related to semiconductors? Did they break it down anywhere? I would guess the same question for intel would be "Almost All Of Them". The reason I wonder, is if there were a significant amount of IBM Semiconductor Design/Manufacturing patents in 2003, I would guess that it would be a positive indication for AMD, and of course on the other hand, not so good news for intel.
Semi
BTW, Sorry about the bolding, it's not directed at you, just for any Newbies, just in case they can't tell the difference between speculation and insider info. No, No..... No thanks necessary, I'm glad to help them out.
If a person posts factual information on this board, why do certain folks characterise it as "Crowing"?
Jules
Your confusion is understandable. What with your being a self admitted AMD Fan, how could I expect anything else? Here, let me help you. It's not what is said, it's the way it's said. I take it though, besides your taking the time, to comment on the style of the post, and poster, instead of it's contents, you certainly seem to agree with the importance of it's contents. Too bad you didn't address your response to that, instead of me. Good job.
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=2046219
Patents and Copyrights have become the life blood of high tech companies today, not at all like the early years.
Jules
Semi