is... a buy and hold investor of dividend US and Canadian stocks
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there is no comparison between the "goop" from out West and pyrolysis oil. There is a very expensive and complicated process that turns that "goop" into the very same end products that stem from the best Arabian goop. It just takes more time, money, lots of water, and creates alot of greenhouse gases.
Now I am sure there are differences... I know there are different qualities of gasoline, sulphur content, etc... but that "goop" is just crude oil that happens to be mixed with a whole lot of sand.
the gift tax issue did not get brought up by me...
well if that is the case, then the blending site was not responsible for that revenue... that would be a misrepresentation of the revenues of the blending site.
I wonder if that revenue number was for the blending plant plus the gas stations combined?
I just checked the PR and it indeed does say 230M. that seems like an unbelievable number to me... but that is what it says..
Not 230M, 230k, I am sure...
The purchase price was 130k jj. read the PR. Original cost was 3M.
If GAAP accounting were used on that original Capital Cost it would have been depreciated down to nothing. However, I have seen some really old equipment refurbished to "like-new" condition. Heck, nuclear reactors in Canada date from the 60's... so depreciation means nothing...
It can cost as much to refurbish this stuff as to buy brand new. The book value becomes some approximation of resale value, not the depreciated capital cost.
So, it was either not worth anything if not kept up (and perhaps not economical to refurbish), or it would still be worth close to 3M, perhaps 2M.
You have "heard"?? can you relate to us what you heard?? I bet that that site has required periodic inspections to operate as a blending site... I wonder if they are up-to-date?
Because if it has not been running for awhile it may be in need of alot of maintenance, not just a paint job, may not meet required standards, and may not have the required inspections.
then they should have been built already...
But landfills have Solid Waste Permits... that is what JBI lacks. Come to think of it, that would be a good reason why most of JBI's competition has their machines on landfill property, because the property already has the necessary permitting, and the machine can operate under a modified version of that permit. makes sense...
that would also explain why that industrial gases company that I worked for had alot of their equipment on customer site... because they could operate it under their customer's permitting.
well a second stack test would be a bit of a setback, unless we are talking about for processors #2 and #3.
How does the process deal with the various industrial wastes that are going to be a part of the feedstock?
Whole business plan, including feedstock, should have been presented to DEC at the beginning, prior to construction, so that all was understood. I think permit should have been scaled for 3 processors.
Such questions are beyond my understanding. When I dealt with the technical people they would discuss scenarios ad nauseum. I would try to be patient but at some point I would have to know the final plan, the timeline and effort (hours). That was my role...
Hey JJ... why is it that you insist that free feedstock is the key to success here? I think that their estimate of $10/barrel is ridiculous, but it is not because of feedstock cost!!!
Does not make sense to me. One of the issues with JBI is that it does not really have a defineable feedstock. What is "industrial plastic"? If it is industrial waste it could have any kind of residue on it with lal kinds fo implications.
Is stage 1 of the process a cleaning stage?
Just an analogy... when I was at that industrial gases company we took in the ambient air as our feedstock. Stage 1 of the process was cleaning it. Not just of suspended matter and dust, but then of moisture. It had to consist of simply (Oxygen, Nitrogen, Argon) before it was separated into those component parts.
If I were jBI I would have a cleaning stage that would wash the plastic that could be considered s separate unit for permitting purposes. Then the input to the process is clean plastic... and permitting for the pyrolysis unit is much easier.
Regardless, first stage has to be cleaning... which can result in all kinds of waste by-product.
Or does the jBI process assume it can handle any kind of dirty input feedstock? Then the choice of feedstock for the stack test is critical.
I must qualify it bec ause I believe that the permit will happen, it is just that it is part of a larger picture which is more important.
1. WPF
2. WPF
OR........
after some form of financing is announced to extend the pre-production time frame. Another PIPE or something else. Whole new ball game...
I would like to have a stab at what has been disclosed that might be "material". Since I am Canadian and deal mainly with Canadian stocks, my perspective may be a bit different.
Anyway, I think the only things that would be material are;
- a firm signed contract to purchase fuel from JBI Inc., with deliveries starting on a certain date.
- a committed "on-stream" date for the first processor.
- a committed "on-stream" date for the other 2 processors.
"On-stream" - delivering product at an understood rate, implying reliable 24/7 operation. In my previous employment this was a contractual date whereby product was to begin to flow to the end customer. The product was pre-determined as to nature (state - liquid/solid, temperature, and pressure). There were always business implications if the date was not met and it was a date the whole team committed to.
I can't think of anything else that is really that important. The permit is simply a stepping-stone to #1 above. It does not guarantee profitability, all it does is guarantee that fuel CAN be sold. Fact of the matter is, even if we do get a permit, that alone does not guarantee that JBI can go to a reliable enough production schedule to be meaningful. This is due to the degree of "tweaking" still going on and the admission that a whopping 5-day production run is some kind of success. It brings into doubt their ability to maintain 24/7 operation.
We need JB to announce a firm target for production. I believe all there is is some vague language in financial statements about promises to begin some kind of production in Q3 2010. Leading up to the date they should have regular communication, similar to guidance, as to whether or not the target is still achievable. It is their responsibility to communicate when they cannot achieve their on-stream date with reliable 24/7 operation.
What JB has done to-date is the opposite of this. Communication has consisted of a series of short-term targets, most of which have slipped. Now there is silence, not a good thing either. If JBI were to come out and say they would be on-stream by February 2011 I am sure everybody would be happy, except that it brings up the question as to whether or not he has enough funds to last until then. Hence, silence implies he is trying to hide something.
Personally, it appears as if he may not have a plan in place to begin with that really can tell him what that on-stream date is. Lots of private-sector small companies are like this. It is a management style that they get used to and even believe in. They believe that planning is a waste of time. It is a culture. I worked in the software industry in the 90's and I can tell you that good planning was not done. SO JBI is not necessariily bad, just a typical small company. I have just become used to something different in recent years. Seems to me that they should have planned for 3 processors right from the beginning and gotten a permit for all 3 at once.
I would not say that getting a permit is material. Applying for the permit is certainly not material. P2O is not that unique.
Deals for feedstock are not material, simply because it is not that much of a cost factor. If he has not got this problem solved he should not even be building the plant.
As for what we are hearing about sales, it is all kind of vague. Material would be some kind of partner like a refinery that agrees to take all of his fuel for a specified price. I suspect that refineries have their supply locked up for years in advance. The problem with all of the talk about off-road use and not being used in engines is that it is too vague to really be counted on..
can you post this DD? tell us, please.
well, i am not sure what to say... i think your imagination is running away with you. I am careful about posting pictures of things. I don't post pictures without a reason so when I have a good reason I will post them.
Why do you want me to show a picture? do you not believe that I did what I did? You think I made it up?
I have a picture looking over the fence on the RHS of what you see in the ibox. I shows absolutely nothing new except that one can see the words "Diesel" stenciled on the sides of the front tanks...
My real interest was in the loading/ unloading bays. I could not get close enough to see anything...
I disagree. People will not necessarily change their driving habits (we all have to work) but it sure will change what they drive, and the effect is the same. In Canada in 2007 the price of gas was 1.40 for a time. When it gets to that level a totally new economics takes place. When was the last time you saw a Hummer? It will change what cars sell (where is the old GM?), what care people buy, what alternative energy companies have a chance at success, etc...
The Old North American auto industry got blown away because they were not successful at making smaller cars. The Japanese won that one....
why can't they build the other two identical to the first one (unpermitted)?. There MUST have been a better way to do this. The DEC must have some flexibility.
There could have been As-Builts (drawings) prepared to document the first machine, which would then be used to build the others.. but I can see the off-gas compressor system being an issue...
there must have been a better way... I know this would have been a hot topic in any project I have been involved in.
Your first point is a good one, the second one I disagree with.
I did not know that they could not build the other two until they got a permit for the first one. That explains alot.
Personally, I would have fought that, but maybe it is beyond their control. It makes their pre-planning with the DEC all that more important...
Tweaking it at this point is just not worth it when you are playing with OPM (Other People's Money).
The points I was making have nothing to do with the process, they have to do with business. I am not sure if you are talking about the permit process or the pyrolysis process, but I have managed process projects requiring permits. The fact that P2O is new does not mean the permit process should be such a headache...
anyway, i forgot to comment on this gem:
"I was very happy to hear that the processor had been running uninterrupted for five days. And that fuel is already being transported to the blending facility for storage."
well... they are not going to be successful if they cannot maintain reliable continuous operation now are they? so i can't say as I would be happy to hear this.
there were no windows... no seriously, I would have on idea what was in the building. Without the guard Anybody could walk into the yard.
Tech:
what is the state of processors #2 and 3? I assumed that the two vessels in the front yard were for the 2nd and third processors. Did you see 3 assembled processors or just the initial processor?
there is no mention of a particular department in the quote attributed to John. Whatever, people can read for themselves.
Right here:
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=56370341
"The darker fuel is diesel, the lighter fuel is gasoline. The processor generates roughly a 80/20 ratio of those two (off gases are also generated as we all know).
You might notice that the diesel fuel on the left has some darker, heavier liquid in the bottom of the jar. This jar was collected when the processor was first warming up. Once the processor is in steady state it produces the clear liquid seen in the other three jars which were drawn off while I was there.
I got to keep the jar on the left. smile
Here is my FB post to John:
Thanks for another tour of the P2O factory today! It was great to see you and talk with you again.
I have posted pictures on FB here:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=252457&id=832165788&l=d06c7a0b83
It was also good to be able to speak with Jacob Smith (COO), Bob Molodynia (VP, Business Development), Alan Barnett (Chief R&D Chemist), Scott (P2O Installation) and Jerry (P2O controls). It was gracious of Dr. Smith to take our pictures.
It was clear that nobody wants to get that DEC permit as quickly as possible more than all of you. Hopefully with the elections over things in the government can start moving again.
The new configuration for the P2O processor looked great. It was nice to see that second feeder gone and the process drum insulated on the outside to retain heat. It was amusing to hear how you were trying everything possible to lose heat before the off-gas compression system was installed.
Those two new processor drums outside are pretty. It will be great to see the new, bigger processors up and running as soon as possible. It will also be nice to have them handling more plastic at one time. The new feeder being developed sounds like a great innovation.
It is too bad that JBII has to be bothered with lawsuits by various entities wanting a piece of JBII. It sounds like Mr. Kaplanis definitely went outside his employment contract. Hopefully any lawsuits can be dispatched without much cost (time and money) to the company.
I was happy to hear that a lot of your time is currently being spent closing deals for sources of plastic. And it was good to verify that a part of the business plan is to sell fuel back to the companies supplying the plastic. It is a win-win solution. JBII gets a free source of plastic and the company supplying the plastic gets discounted fuel with out the sulphur allowing their emissions to be greener.
I like your plan to have a waste recycling center as part of your local operations. That could be a good model for any JV's that are started.
I got a close up look of the shredded plastic being fed into the processor. It was certainly not uniform. I saw gooey plastic of all colors shredded together into a single bin. Some of it was black.
But what I saw coming out of the processor, from both the diesel condenser and the gas condenser, was clean, amber fuel. It was interesting to note how cool the jar of gasoline was coming right out of the condenser while the jar of diesel was only warm to the touch. Thank you for the signed jar of P2O gasoline. I could try to use it in my lawnmower (snowblower?), but I think it is worth more to me as a keepsake.
I was very happy to hear that the processor had been running uninterrupted for five days. And that fuel is already being transported to the blending facility for storage.
"
Obviously? how do you know? This quote came from JB himself apparently. Can't get much more accurate than that.
Well I took one pic but it would not add any value. It is just a closer view of what you have already seen as taken from the front. And I am not into posting pictures of what was once in someone's house sitting on a veranda, along with a barbecue.
Something interesting did happen though... Suddenly I saw this figure on a horse in the distance. I could barely see him, it was like looking through a haze. He was riding away from me, so it got harder and harder to make him out. and then suddenly... he was no longer there! He just vanished seemingly into thin air... strange!!!
It appears as if things are not going as well as we thought with the DEC. No bleachers or backflips here...
From another board:
"The feeling I got was one of frustration waiting for the DEC. One story John told was of the DEC calling and asking about them burning plastic. He kept telling them that the process does not burn plastic, but because they have never seen the process they kept asking. And they said they didn't have the budget to actually make a house call to check it out.
I guess that it was Conestoga-Rovers & Associates (“CRA”) that did the stack test and the results were passed along to the DEC via the application. So I guess the DEC has never seen the facility themselves. Sorry, no bleachers.
Everybody is hoping that the DEC is able to move forward faster now that the elections are not getting in the way.
If you're frustrated, join the club."
my intent was to get photos or a good look at the loading/ unloading bays. In order to attempt that I tried walking down the property line on one side. I was unsuccessful. However, the veranda behind the building on the right comes in to clear view when you do that and the back sides of the buildings.
Guzaling clearly only took pictures from the front, where all looks rosy.
Depends on what you think is impressive. Personally, I am not impressed. Then again, I look at things a bit differently because I have been personally involved in these projects.
Starting with this bit:
"The new configuration for the P2O processor looked great. It was nice to see that second feeder gone and the process drum insulated on the outside to retain heat. It was amusing to hear how you were trying everything possible to lose heat before the off-gas compression system was installed. "
It is typical of engineers to want to do things perfectly, and they will bankrupt a company in the process. The place where I worked at had no time for science experiments. Whatever was done was the most cost-effective and timely while being safe and doing the job. At this stage of the game... you must admit this kind of thing is irrelevant.
i always assumed that the initial configuration was for 3 processors at the NY location. I am surprised they are not built. 3 times the output???
"Those two new processor drums outside are pretty. It will be great to see the new, bigger processors up and running as soon as possible. It will also be nice to have them handling more plastic at one time. The new feeder being developed sounds like a great innovation. "
NOT pretty to me. They have been sitting for months. And it appears as if the permit is only for 1 processor, after which the permit will have to be upgraded for 3 processors, AFTER which the other 2 processors will be built.
So it appears as if he has applied for a permit for 1 processor... why did he not think ahead and apply for a permit for 3 processors? Time IS Money. If he is burning either 1M/month or 1M/qtr, doesn't it make scale to scale up for 3, plan the procurements, and build all 3?
And this has pluses and minuses, but basically is not what was promised:
"I was happy to hear that a lot of your time is currently being spent closing deals for sources of plastic. And it was good to verify that a part of the business plan is to sell fuel back to the companies supplying the plastic. It is a win-win solution. JBII gets a free source of plastic and the company supplying the plastic gets discounted fuel with out the sulphur allowing their emissions to be greener. "
That is NOT selling for WTI-3. Yes it is good for the environment and a win-win. But I am skeptical of anything that does not involve a cash sale. At the end of the day, JBI is not getting what they said they would get for their fuel, and the plastic is not "free". This is a barter arrangement.
So no it is not a particularly good state of affairs. It is better than no communication. There is no final timeline or promised on-stream date. In my former workplace this would never be tolerated and would certainly never be a status report... i reported monthly on schedule, dates, status.... and this is nothing like it.
If it were me I would be pressing him on end-date, why he was not building out the other processors, why he did not think ahead on the permit, and his costs. But that is just me...
you have to get a view from the side.... the veranda can't be seen from the front.
the whole appearance of the place was a "red flag". The only picture that investors have seen is from the front. That veranda is completely hidden and full of old furniture.
correct. Sounds like the P2O plant was properly done....
My comment was about the blending plant. You can see it in the picture that is commonly thrown around (look in the ibox).
I was standing on the exact spot that picture was taken from. I then got a view from the side where I could see the backs of the buildings and what was there...
It would be great if you could explain the choice of colors. My experience is in the nuclear business and air separation (industrial gases).
In the nuclear business colors are very important. Every precaution is taken to make sure people working on equipment know what is what. Piping containing hydrogen is always Red (the color of Fire) because hydrogen is very dangerous stuff. Heavy water is a color, light water is a color... etc.
In air separation Oxygen piping or systems is always a particular color. I forget what it was... Oxygen is the raw material for Fire and is a Combustible.
Can you explain the seemingly bizarre choice of colors to the Board?
After all, it is a fuel plant, lots of flammable, explosive liquids... lots of danger and hazards...
And why do the tanks need to be labeled as to their contents?
"Diesel"?
I find it odd that he is waiting for a permit to complete the assembly of the new processors. That is only going to delay production.
Someone should ask JB why he is pursuing things this way... why delay things?
Unmercifully? not sure if that is the case...
well as I just posted I said I would be willing to do that. Just let JB know and make sure he knows it is the Big Guy from iHub. I am sure he will be thrilled. I am not a shareholder, problem #1, I don't want shares or money.... only thing I want is an "on-stream" date with 3 processors, or less...,. justification for the $10/barrel cost. etc.... I don't really care so much about the price...
he is liable to offer me shares or something...
well i am not kidding.... that is exactly what he said. He is only a security guard. It could be something that he heard.... likely meaningless. He only works there once/ month, so they have various guards.
it is obvious that this place is not meant to be seen by the public. There is no "image" being maintained... and obviously they are being cost-conscious, which is a good thing.
maybe... but it is a fenced-in area. Actually, there is nothing much there, and nothing to identify it as JBI. Isn't this the place that JB said he was trying to keep secret? Non-disclosures?
No there are no identifying signs or marks to identify it as JBI.
I actually asked the security guard where the address was that I had, and he told me well "this is JBI", so I knew I had the right place. He was the only human being within the vicinity so I had no choice as to who to ask.
I asked if there was regular activity at the site, because it appeared so inactive. He said he was only there once/month so he really did not know. I should have asked if there had been any changes since the last month... forgot. I was feeling like a LURKER so I took off.. after all, I forgot my tweezers and electrodes...
He said something about that they were "looking for investors". Not sure what that means... but that would be old news. he is only a rent-a-cop.