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Narcissism is also listed as a treatable psychosis.
The Bird of Prey
Word for the Day ---
Narcissism - Morbid delight in one's own self. From the greek myth of Narcissus, a youth in love with his own reflection. See also IHUB postings by Joemoney.
The Bird of Prey
Thank you Joe,
I truly appreciate your insight into my intellectual capability. And no, I don't feel stupid.
BTW, it ain't over yet. This still looks like the beginning of the end, no point in harping about it though. If you can't see it... you can't see it.
The Bird of Prey
Sara,
If your account is a margin account, then you can be certain that your shares are in the brokerage inventory and available for shorting. They were probably shorted the minute you made your purchase.
If you have a cash account it is very likely that your shares are in the brokerage inventory and available for shorting. They were probably shorted the minute you made your purchase.
Calling your broker is recommended, but when you opened your account you signed an agreement that allows them to loan your shares as they see fit without notice or compensation.
The only way to insure that your shares are unavailable for shorting is to call for the certs, If you have any trouble getting them let everyone know.
The Bird of Prey
As usual
You either don't have a very high level of reading comprehension or you simply ignore those facts which don't fit your view.
Fact 1 NASDAQ says "...companies will not be cited for bid price or market value of public float deficiencies."
Fact 2 NASDAQ says "Companies currently under review for deficiencies or in the hearings process will be taken out of the process with respect to the bid price or market value of public float requirements. No deficiencies will accrue during the proposed
suspension process."
These statements from NASDAQ make clear that, regardless of the status before 9/26/01, no delisting will occur for these two reasons until after 1/2/02.
You are correct that ASTN does indeed have difficulty in meeting the third requirement. However, not as much as you would wish to imply.
According to http://www.nasdaq.com/about/nnm1.stm Companies must have Either $10 million in Stockholders equity OR $4 million in net tangible assets (if the company qualified prior to July 2001 as ASTN did). This is outlined in note #1 on the page referenced above.
You have pointed out yourself that ASTN has ~3.6 million in net assets. This means that in order to clear this third hurdle they would need to add ~$400,000 cash to meet that requirement. I believe the amount accessed in the most recent financing did exceed $400K by a significant amount. On 9/21/01 they drew 1.2 million from the equity line.
Given that NASDAQ has suspended the Bid Price and Market Value of Public Float requirements until 1/02/02 and the rather high probability that ASTN was able to meet the third requirement at least on a temporary basis...why are you still expecting them to be delisted any day now?
Further, in post http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=194444 you state "I don't see a waiver for minimum bid there." even though the NASDAQ Document clearly covers the minimum bid. Additionally, you have clearly misrepresented the Net Assets requirement as being $10 million. What is stated unequivically at http://www.nasdaq.com/about/nnm1.stm is that $10 Million in Stockholder Equity is required unless those companies listed prior to July, 2001 wish to use the $4 Million Net assets figure, which they may do until November 2002. There is no $10 Million Net Assests requirement as you have hammered relentlessly for weeks now.
You have said several times that I need to check my facts before posting. I wholeheartedly agree. Feel free to continue demonstrating that you cannot comprehend simple English or have no regard for the truth.
BTW, it is not in the realm of impossibility that ASTN will escape Delisting altogether.
The Bird of Prey
If you have a problem with this I suggest you take it up with NASDAQ. I'm merely quoting their own press release. If NASDAQ isn't being tough enough for you, take it up with them.
The Bird of Prey
This seems pretty clear
"Companies currently under review for deficiencies or in the hearings process will be taken out of the process with respect to the bid price or market value of public float requirements. No deficiencies will accrue during the proposed
suspension process."
ASTN was in the hearing process, NASDAQ temporarily suspended the hearing process. No hearing, no ruling, no delisting.
Nice, clean and straightforward factual presentation.
ta ta
The Bird of Prey
Delisting postponed
http://www.nasdaqnews.com/news/pr2001/ne_section01_278.html
According to the above NASDAQ press release "Companies currently under review for deficiencies or in the hearings process will be taken out of the process with respect to the bid price or market value of public float requirements. No deficiencies will accrue during the proposed
suspension process."
Full text of press release:
Nasdaq Takes Actions to Help Companies Remain Listed
Temporarily Suspends Minimum Bid Price and Public Float
Requirements for Continued Listing on Market
New York—In response to the extraordinary market conditions following the tragedy of September 11th, The Nasdaq Stock Market, Inc. today announced that it was implementing an across-the-board moratorium on the minimum bid and public float requirements for continued listing on Nasdaq. The actions to suspend these requirements until January 2, 2002, were approved late yesterday by the Nasdaq Board of Directors and became effective immediately.
Nasdaq rules have generally provided that companies whose securities fall below the minimum bid price or fail to meet minimum market value of public float requirement for 30 consecutive business days are given a 90 day grace period to regain compliance. A company may demonstrate compliance by meeting the applicable standard for a minimum of 10 consecutive business days. If a company fails to regain compliance within the applicable timeframe, that company is subject to delisting. Nasdaq's new moratorium will suspend these requirements until January 2, 2002.
Under the temporary relief provided by the new rules, companies will not be cited for bid price or market value of public float deficiencies. Companies currently under review for deficiencies or in the hearings process will be taken out of the process with respect to the bid price or market value of public float requirements. No deficiencies will accrue during the proposed
suspension process. During this time, Nasdaq will consider whether it is appropriate to recommend further and more permanent action.
"In the days following September 11th, we extended the grace period associated with these requirements for affected companies on an individual basis," said Wick Simmons, chairman and chief executive officer of Nasdaq. "Yesterday, we implemented a broader action that we believe will provide greater stability to the marketplace during these times of economic
uncertainty."
In other words...No delisting hearing last Friday. No delisting hearing before January 2, 2002. Possibility of no Delisting hearing ever should NASDAQ change rules permanently or should ASTN recover.
ASTN still has a lot of hurdles to overcome but anyone with a 5th grade reading level can figure this out. Delisting will not happen in 2001. No one can predict the future but you can't quite stick a fork in this one just yet.
The Bird of Prey
today's update
Count is now over 780. Not bad considering we don't have 1000's of shorts spamming this all over.
Gary is temporarily offline while recovering from a hacker attack. Someone slipped him a particularly nasty virus, apparently activated when he replied to an email. Nothing permanent, just slowed him up for a while.
Shorts claiming today's rally fueled by them covering. Funny that yesterday they were saying they were going to short the NAZ down to 1000. Sounds like spin doctoring to me.
The Bird of Prey
Poet,
You call me "misguided"...that implies that someone is guiding me.
You say that I don't or can't "understand" that implies mental defect.
You claim you do not wish to converse with me yet you continue to converse the above points about me to others.
Granted you are not as ill mannered as some others but if you wish to continue insulting me publicly I reserve the right to respond as I see fit. If you wish to cease and desist then I will happily continue along on the topics I choose to expaitiate about without including you.
Funny thing is, you can be quite respectable when you want to.
The Bird of Prey
Poet,
I understand all too well how the market works...and that it works differently for different segments of investors. You are most correct in how the market operates for RETAIL INVESTORS. But institutional investors and those that operate outside the legal requirements are not subject to the same set of rules. It is naive to presume that I am market illiterate because you do not recognize this different set of rules. That is the core of this petition, to level the playing field. What I can't understand is why any honest, ethical investor would oppose closing a loophole that allows retail investors to be taken advantage of by institutional investors and criminals.
The personal threats are being phoned and emailed privately, these crooks are experienced enough to know better than to make a threat in a public forum.
Finally Ma'am, your condescending tone is most unbecoming. I thought you preferred open discourse? We are on opposite side of an issue yet I haven't stooped to implying mental defect in your thought processes as you have mine, nor have I implied that you are being led by another.
That you think the petition am wrong is OK by me. So far, we have documented our case and refuted all attempts at discrediting the petition. The responses now are all variations on the same theme, that we don't really know what we are doing, some are done with eloquence and some are quite crude.
Meanwhile we'll keep plugging along till the 31st. Send in the petition and listen to it get belittled for having so "few" signers.
Doing what is right may not always be the easiest or the most popular...but it is still the right thing to do.
The Bird of Prey
I thought I'd comment on recent activities...
Signature count is still growing, now over 670.
The furor from the short camp has subsided somewhat. I believe they finally realized that the continued assaults were actually helping rather than hurting our cause. Even the satirical chat board has been most quiet this afternoon. It does seem though that the satirical petition was pulled by petitononline.com. No complaints from our side that I am aware of, the satire was very well done IMHO and as someone once said even bad publicity is still publicity!
Efforts are contining to get the word out and all assistance is appreciated.
The personal threats have not abated and indeed seem to be escalating. Rest assured Gary and I were and are prepared for this.
Media feelers are starting to come in, this still has a great deal of potential.
For the troops out there...keep the faith and don't stop spreading the word.
The Bird of Prey
What the petition doesn't do...
1. It does not permanently end short selling.
2. It does not prevent individuals from exposing overvalued, poorly managed or fraudulent stock scams.
3. It will not hinder honest individuals from profiting from their discovery of a company fitting the scenarios described in #2.
4. It does not isolate the American markets.
5. It will not encourage rampant Pump & Dump scams.
6. It will not unbalance the markets.
7. It will not cause the markets to suddenly become bullish.
8. It will not help "unworthy comapanies" to survive.
9. It will not prevent a recession.
10. It won't stop people from making bad investments and losing money in the market.
The Bird of Prey
I am beginning to wonder
about the cognitive abilities of the opposition. The petition is very clear about the objective...a TEMPORARY ban on short selling while the regulations are reviewed and altered to eliminate a loophole being used to undermine the integrity of the market. The public is becoming aware of the flaw in the system and is demanding the authorities do something about it.
the alternative to fixing the system is not pretty. On the one hand the public remains fooled by the rhetoric and our enemies short the markets into oblivion; on the other, the public, realizing that there is no longer a reasonable chance of success for the average Joe...exits the market altogether. Either way the end result is the same. Capitalism is destroyed. The true goal of our real adversaries.
Think about it...Banks are set up to take in money in the form of deposits and loan it out under strict rules. As long as these rules are followed there is no problem. But if a banker decides to operate outside those rules things get ugly in a hurry. In some cases what we have happening here are "rogue bankers" bending the rules to their own benefit. We need better enforcement and tighter restrictions to hinder those activities. But far more dangerous would be a "hacker" that has found a way to circumvent the rules and do as he pleases with our money. From what the shorts themselves are saying this is a much closer analogy to what they do. They have found a way to circumvent the rules and do as they please. They rail against the petition saying that an "end to short selling" would damage the market, trying to deflect from the real issue which is closing the backdoor they use to steal money from hard working Americans. If you read their comments and posts the pattern repeats over and over:
- You guys are stupid.
- You don't know what you are talking about.
- Look at these "other" evils!
- We do more good than anyone else in the market.
- You need us to do what we do or things will be worse.
- If you don't stop your petition we will get you.
In an effort to prove how bad some other market elements are they have offered examples that in reality support our petition. they have shown how organized groups of individuals and big firms abuse the existing system to the detriment of individual shareholders as proof that we are wrong in presenting this petition. Yet, the examples they cite are using the very loopholes we are asking to be closed!
Let me say that Gary and I recognize that legal short selling is a necessary part of a healthy market. We are not focusing on any single part of the market, our petition addresses the market as a whole. The problem is simple, there is a vehicle through which certain unscrupulous characters can circumvent the regulations put in place to protect American investors and their markets. These characters have banded together in a loosely aligned "cadre" to exploit this vehicle for personal gain at the expense of the American people.
And as certainly as a "cadre" of rogue hackers trying to disable our financial communications network, or our defense network must be shut down and closed out, so must this "cadre" of illegal short sellers be shut down and closed out...before they can finish destroying our markets.
The Bird of Prey
This from "lion" a signer of the petition.
On or before 9/25, Native Nations brokerage sold Genesis short $60 million backed by stock "borrowed" from MJK Clearing - when Genesis (controlled by the Arab arms dealer Kashoggi)halted trading on its stock on 9/25, its useful value to Native Nations for its net capitalization went to zero, putting Native Nations out of business since it could't do the payback to MJK Clearing. Consequently, MJK shut down, taking down all of the brokerage firms they clear for, freezing the assets of 200,000 accounts around the country. Eventually, like the S&L debacle, people will get their money after the government (us taxpayers) step in to fix it. IF NATIVE NATIONS COULD NOT SELL SHORT ON "BORROWED" STOCK THIS WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED- The traders at Native Nations would have cut a fat hog on the deal if Genesis had continued to trade- but SOMEBODY made $60 million while Native Nations/ MJK lost it- This abuse only comes to surface when occasionally something inadvertently or DELIBERATELY goes wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I have been aware of this from the beginning but have refrained from mentioning it specifically. I make no comment of the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the prospects for GENI. Only on the mechanics of how shorting worked to create a very bad situation.
Thanks go out to some of the newsletter folks I see joining our petition. I look forward to it's inclusion in your next issue.
Remember folks, this petition runs until the end of October...the only reason we would cut it short would be if we had already reached a large enough signature base to get Washington's attention.
We can make a difference.
The Bird of Prey
Well Well Well,
It seems the good ole shorts are at least reading over here. Been following their attempts to discredit over on their home board where Gary has chosen to battle them in their own back yard.
So many slings and arrows. We must have really smacked 'em right between the eyes. The number one point they miss is that the petition does not call for an outright permanent ban on Short selling. It specifically calls for a temporary ban until new regulations can be put in place. It then asks for specific weaknesses in the current short regulations to be addressed. Nothing more and nothing less.
This certainly has raised the ire of short sellers. Particularly those that use off-shore accounts to illegally short here in the United States.
Behind the scenes hundreds of people are sending us information on these shorters. Not surprisingly many have serious criminal backgrounds with real ties to organized crime.
That they claim to benefit the market by exposing poor management and outright fraudulent companies is not the issue. The issue is that regardless of the companies "worthiness" they can short the company into bankruptcy.
Let me give you an example of how (and WHY) this works.
First, you must realize that the shorts need only have 20% of the amount the wish to short collateralized. that means that one individual with $20,000 can short $100,000 of a company. For arguments sake let's say the company trades at $20 a share and has 10 million shares outstanding. In the case of an illegal off-shore short, 5000 shares of dilution have been added to the available trading shares. By itself not a lot and not a big impact on the market. But for a moment, let's presume that the reason this person shorted this particular company was because a private website accessible only by the membership has profiled this company and recommends them as a like short candidate. Further this website has 100 members. All of the members have more money to short with than our example (they spend $7200 a year for membership) but I'll use that number as a base. Because they are paying for the pick and because it has been successful for them in the past we will presume that all participate in the short exercise. Now there are 500,000 shares short, 5% of the outstanding shares. Still this may not be enough to seriously impact the price, but...others see this activity and once the original group has established their positions the bashing campaign begins. The number of individuals joining the short bandwagon can skyrocket. For simplicity we will only presume another 900 shorters join in and at half the original amount each...this adds 2,250,000 share to the short interest.
Sidebar: This does not show up as short sales, only as sales. In a month some of this will show up in a short interest report, but since that information is voluntary and certainly not going to include the illegal off-shore brand of short selling, around the 15th of the following month. By then it will be woefully out of date and under reported.
Now we have a 27.5% short interest, Of which most will never show on anyones short interest report. With this amount of shorting the stock price has likely taken a serious hit. As a result some of our intrepid short sellers now have capital freed to increase their position as the margin requirement is lower. Also it is common practice not to dump the whole wad in at once so they have plenty of capital to continue to short the company.
By now bashing is in full swing, quite likely with the aid of major news sources and analysts on board the short bandwagon. Many small investors will begin selling accelerating the decline. The more it declines the greater the power of the short players (does this sound familiar anyone? does toxic death spirals come to mind?). The company issues positive release after positive release. Company is still profitable and unless something strange happens, like market capitalization being seriously undermined, they should be OK. But the selling continues. Though IBD and WSJ may only be reporting 3% or 4% short interest, we already know that number is much higher. One big clue is that IBD will be showing the company is in serious distribution. Only the short sellers know that it has all been orchestrated and the outcome fait accompli from the moment they started. If the management was smart they saw what was coming and tried to stop the bleeding by buying up company shares. But to do so they have to put up 100% of the money needed to buy the shares. Even if they are able to convince the public to join in the fight the public can only margin at 50% (in some cases higher). the shorts have the advantage in that they can create dilution, easily manipulate sentiment and have at least 2.5 times the buying power of longs. Add the completely unregulated off-shore element and the outcome is the same as if one football team were allowed to have 15 players on the field. Eventually, regardless of the soundness of management or the viability of the company, starved of capital it goes out of business, And the shorts claim another victory. The only ones to benefit were the short sellers, who got rich by usurping the property of others and destroying it's value.
No matter how they try and claim otherwise they have an advantage that they don't want taken away...and that is exactly the purpose of this petition. Join us in the fight for a truly level playing field. Stop this unscrupulous element from destroying the value that made this country great.
The Bird of Prey
Now that is what I call a personal attack.
Not one shred of proof that Gary is in error...just the posters opinion. When you consider it is liberally spiced with invective and inflammatory personal comments, the poster and the person reposting this self-aggrandizing effrontery must certainly fall into the camp of those whose greed has undermined their ethics.
For your information, some of your own ranks are spilling the beans concerning the inner workings of a "cartel". That you vehemently oppose anyone seeking to disrupt your meal ticket is clear. It is also clear that you have no real defense, just threats and empty namecalling and rhetoric.
Attack us personally all you want. It only makes us stronger and reveals you for what you really are.
The Bird of Prey
A must read from Gary's SI board.
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/stocktalk/msg.gsp?msgid=16437605
Is offshore favored over the American Investor and market?
Since the SEc went after TMex and other Pump & Dump scenarios where they were front loading pumping and dumping then short selling and stop pumping. The FEDS have not looked at the other side of the coin. What about the short and distort cartels?
There are short sell cartels where the leaders charge as much as $600 per month for admission to the cartels private website on the internet. There the collusion is taken to the ultimate degree. The leader essentially teaches people how to short-sell, how to set up offshore accounts for naked shorting, avoid reporting to the IRS, etc. Further how to bully and bashing effectively a message board to fully gain control of a due diligence or stop it completely.
Next the Short sellers find someone to author a piece that is bias to short selling same as the boiler rooms do. They needs media to get the opinion that short selling is not bad. They use the figurews available which are incomplete as facts. But why would any American write such a bogus bias article. Because MONEY is the underlying basis. Taking and stealing American’s money.
Further if the news is good coming out of the company this tactic of the real media helps to destroy the news from the company. This is not about facts, due diligence ro anything fundamentally. This si about get capitulation and covering then laughing at the stupidity of the American Investor. It is easy get sells ... Impression management and manipulation of the media thus creating a clear path to manipulate the market.
The bottomline is once they have accomplished total destruction of public opinion they buy into the selling covering and then going long in some cases. They shut up about the security and let the longs bring in buyers so at some point they can sell their long position and then short it back down with bashers killing public opinion confidence again.
The organize short selling boiler rooms are vicious.
These cartels will threaten anyone that dares to exposure them with public intimidation to bodily harm. You name it to keep a voice quite and not bring notice to the feds of their activities. Just like the mafia. But are these short selling cartels controlled by the mafia or maybe other forces that would love to see American investors broke and in food lines like the great depression of 1929?
Do these short selling cartels have fed friends by exposing potential scams and thus the feds look the other way? Kind of like ignoring a pick pocket, scam artist and down right murderer because they carry carte blanche with the feds.
Are these leaders of these Cartels ex cons and merely presenting themselves as advocates of the small American investor or are they conning the American Investor to steal from them with every legal loophole or slack regulation in the book? Would this petition shut them down and thus cripple their thievery of the American Investors? However, they tout it is Wall Street that is crooked element and they are just small fish? They tout the numbers which are incomplete as they are just a small part of the market and can't affect it. But you put enough of these cartels in play and the lack of disclosure and both the American Investors, the IRS and our economy will feel the affects of these cartels..
The fact is these short selling cartels leaders, in my opinion, merely siphon out the money from their followers and turns whatever good they may have in them into greed. Just like Tmex did. Does it matter if it is P&D or If it is S&D? The Feds say this is not a team sport and trading collusion is illegal as short selling, but when will the feds look at these cartels? Wonder if the entire cartel disclose their off shore accounts on their IRS 1040 or do they have the accounts hidden under fictitious corporate names and people or numbered accounts?
But another little tidbit is offshore accounts are NOT subject to the new "daytrading" rules. Seems American Investors are being tagged from all sides.
The Bird of Prey
Paule,
You have cut to the heart of the problem. While on the one hand the Muslim heirarchy denounces the attack, on the other they blame American policy and swear to defend the terrorists to the last man.
It is time we show them that they can't have it both ways. As "W" said...You are either for us or against us!
The Bird of Prey
Where are all the newsletter editors?
Something curious...when the boycott petition was being circulated, the NL's were stumbling over each other trying to help promote it, Some promoters were even setting up websites to help get the petition off the ground. Yet now they are strangely silent...Why?
I'd be interested to hear from some of them. Let me know why you aren't supporting a petition calling for better regulation of short selling. I can only think of one reason for opposing this petition. And if your not supporting it you're opposing it.
The Bird of Prey
We need more help in getting the word out. If you have accounts at the other message boards share the information about the petition with everyone you can. Also let them know about contacting their Congressman as well. Recently we came across a link that will allow one to email ALL members of Congress with a single click.
http://www.mailblasterdot.com
Do not be shy about letting congress know about the grass roots movement concerning short selling. feel free to send them the article gary and I wrote and the petition URL. If everyone that signed the boycott petition will sign this one and send these emails to congress we might accomplish what the boycott couldn't.
The Bird of Prey
Actually there is a great deal that can be done to regulate offshore. The simplest method is to disallow trading priviledges to any offshore firm or individual that breaks the rules. Quite frankly it may be time we started telling other countries that if they don't start playing by the rules they will have to leave the playground! Too many countries are dictating how WE can operate...it is time for that to change.
The Bird of Prey
Matt,
we are threatening the "free ride" that many have been using for years to fleece millions from an unsuspecting public. The number of "scams" perpetrated by short & distort manipulators dwarfs the Pump & Dump campaigns. In fact many alleged P&D's are shorting as they sell their legitimate shares to double the profit. The system allows massive unregulated short selling to occur. No one has been focusing attention on these short sell manipulators and they like it that way. The petition raises unwanted scrutiny.
But you are correct...it does take all kinds.
BTW, I love it when they question my integrity...it just shows how desperate they are.
The Bird of Prey
Since there seems to be quite a bit of misunderstanding concerning what we hope to achieve with this petition I offer the following links from the Hong Kong exchange. After the short sale induced crash in the late `90's they revised the short sale rules. The links below explain it pretty clearly. Unless you have backed your short position with cash and/or made arrangements to guarantee the shares shorted are not naked the sale is illegal and the trader is subject to fines and/or imprisonment. Please not the the exchange provides the legal mumbo-jumbo as well as a FAQ and a what if scenario to make sure that any investor can understand the situation.
http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/199809/07/0907071.htm
http://www.hkeirc.org/emain/special_g18.html
http://www.hksfc.org.hk/eng/investor/html/stories/hket%20I/s_sale.htm#2q
Also, I would like to note that as expected our opposition seems able only to attack us on a personal level. Opening their arguments with namecalling and rhetoric. We took our time creating the petition so that it would be carefully worded as to allow for no other response from the short selling crowd and have a reasonable chance of being acted upon by the proper authorities. Based on the volume of shorts responding so vigorously...it appears we succeeded. Keep actively spreading news of this petition as our opponents are trying their best to squash it.
At the very least it will help us develop comprehensive list of serious short sellers and the newsletters they issue. Ask yourself, "If a newsletter publisher is actively against this petition...why wouldn't he be shorting into the buys created by the pump in his newsletter?"
The Bird of Prey
You requested articles...
a little lite reading for you.
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=189978
The Bird of Prey
Excuse me? Namecalling?
That you disagree with the description set forth as to how shorts operate is clear. But you are the one indulging in namecalling in spite of your claim to the contrary. Your veiled derogatory comments are clearly attempts to discredit and they have been unsuccessful. As for a substantive response, we have responded with the equanimity to your assertions. Quid pro quo, if you will. You called your broker who told you one thing. I have spoken with dozens of brokers, Gary has actual documents and interviewed professional short traders that refute you and your brokers comments. We have posted this information freely. As I have reminded you more than once now this discussion is not wholly based in penny stocks. Yet you continue to berate us as mere "low life penny stock players" and now you belittle us as wastes of time.
Further the image posted is not a stock certificate, you continued reference to it as such indicates either an unwillingness to admit an error or an inability to understand simple facts. Also I am not complaining about the penny stock market though by the strictest of definitions the NASDAQ is rapidly becoming one. there is a flaw in the markets...ALL of them. If the loophole isn't closed, as it was in the world wars, our enemies can use this loophole to inflict further damage on us. Indeed they already are.
If you have no desire to put your signature on the petition that is your right and as an American I will support that right. However, what is being proposed is not new. It has been done during many conflicts before. Over the last 24 hours Gary and I have spent a great deal of time collating the various articles and rulings that support our petition. These references will be appearing in the Ibox for that thread continuously over the weekend.
BTW, I realize you have done a great deal of research into short selling...were you aware that the rules are different for large investors versus retail (read small) investors? things that you and I aren't allowed to do work for the big boys and believe me our opposition has plenty of big boys.
The Bird of Prey
Correct, we did the right thing then and we need to do the right thing now.
The Bird of Prey
Most excellent dood, Party On!
The Bird of Prey
Mischaracterizing?
First, you state that what Gary is reporting is inaccurate. Then when he backs it up with an image (albeit not the best resolution but still clearly not a stock certificate), you question it's relevance by misnomer and obfuscation, to wit...
"All I see is a stock certificate with your name on it and the date 12-20-00. The name of the company is X'ed out and the amount of shares is unclear, either 10.175 shares or 10, 175 shares. You've scanned this certificate as proof of what, exactly?"
Perhaps a more thorough research of background information is necessary before you can proceed with your attempts to discredit the authors of the petition. Pay particular attention to the 1930-34 period which led to the creation of the "uptick" rule to combat rampant short selling during that crucial period in our country's history. Also note the outright bans on short selling during the world wars to prevent our enemies then from doing exactly what I am referring to happening now.
Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
"Hot Lists get updated this weekend."
Hope you are going to cull those usernames that have been inactive for an extended period of time from the hot list. It doesn't look too "hot" to see several posters that have not been active since MAY in the "Hot List"
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
Ahhhh, thought so.
Probably right about impeding the use of people marking. But may I suggest a place for reporting the number of marks one has acquired? After all one of the primary motivations for posting is the stroking of ego. The number of people valuing one's missives is a critical component of that stroking. Not to mention the competitive nature we demonstrate from time to time. I once proposed an inclusion in one's profile of the number of marks one has acquired, especially when coupled with the number of "ignored", the number of times suspended and a listing of boards one is helping to moderate could help a new user decide how much importance to place on the comments of one individual without IHUB actually assigning a rating to that individual ala "$$$$".
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
"View my people" link disappeared. Intentional or accidental?
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
"I think the idea that our entire economy is being threatened by short sellers is rather fantastic:"
Fantastic though it may be, the threat is still there. Already there are investigations underway into the shorting and put buying activity in American airline, insurance and tourism stocks leading up to 9/11/01...not only here in the US but in Several Foreign countries. Most notably England and Germany, where significant populations of persons associated with terrorism are known to reside. Several members of Congress have recognized this threat and have proposed a ban on short selling. I recommend that anyone supporting this petition should contact their local congressional representative and let them know about your support for this petition.
The Twin Towers were not targeted simply because they were so big. The airlines were chosen as much for their ability to hurt other industries as for their explosive capability.
Already, THREE major industries are severely curtailed. Layoffs are STARTING with numbers in the Hundreds of thousands.
As more industries are affected more layoffs occur and the cycle repeats itself. Our overseas adversaries were ready to take immediate advantage of the situation, each attempt to rally is met with a new wave of sales.
You are correct in thinking that a ban on short selling will not cure all that now ails our economy. But to stand by and do nothing assures our destruction.
Our opponents in this "new kind of war" as our president accurately calls it, seek to bring about the end of our way of life. What better way than to deny us the means by which we earned our way of life to begin with.
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
Ma'am,
That is most definitely not a stock certificate. I can clearly read the words "certificate of deposit" in boldface at the top of the document. It takes a little doing but it also says that it is a certificate of deposit issued in lieu of an actual stock certificate in the body of text. What company and the amount of shares are irrelevant. What you said cannot happen...happened. I pray that you are more prescient in your view of the potential for our economic destruction.
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
Poet,
This is not just about so-called "penny stocks". Our research into this issue involves stocks trading at greater than $5 on both the NYSE and NASDAQ across several industries. Once targeted by shorts it is almost impossible for a company to recover, the short advantage is too large. Granted, the problem is exacerbated in the OTCBB arena, but were the problem restricted to that arena alone we would not be looking at such dire straits ahead. It appears that this time though they feel powerful enough to take on an entire economy. Remember they have been building their war chest, feeding off of a %70 decline in the NASDAQ over the last eighteen months. Many individual companies are down 95% or more. Now they target the DJIA and S&P500. The math is on their side. they need only 20% to initiate a position and they earn interest on the proceeds from the sale. They have hundreds of Billions of dollars at their disposal, they can short several trillion dollars now and as the markets go lower they can short more.
What we need is a temporary ban on all short selling until new regulations can be put into effect that make the system more transparent and level the field. Once the proper checks and balances are in place the "new" version of short selling could resume. The new rules would likely force many existing short positions to cover immediately and some would be at a loss. We expect the shorts to oppose this vehemently.
I do hope this clarifies our petition for you.
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
Poet,
um...sorry, but when you make statements like this...
I have just called my broker, TD Waterhouse, and asked if this ever happens. They said unequivocally that it does not. Brokerages have only a limited supply of shares available for shorting.
PLEASE call a reputable broker and confirm this. I just hate to see untruths promulgated like this, Gary.
You at least are inferring that he lied, if not actually calling him a liar. Gary does not recognize the difference between the two.
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
Poet,
I've been reading your commentary on the petition. As co-Author I'd like to clarify a few points.
1. Concerning Calling for Certs - Having worked with several brokers over a number of years, I do know that the situation Gary describes about not actually being able to get one's certs does happen. I also know that especially with discount brokers you can get different information on the same subject depending on who you have on the other end of the line. Some of the "brokers" working for discount houses are very "market inept". I have had to talk more than one through a buy-write transaction myself. It would not surprise me to discover that a discount house "broker" might not have all of the information necessary to answer your question.
2. The petition addresses "unregulated" shorting by requiring that collateral equal to what long investors put up be required before they are allowed to short. Under the current rules shorts have a distinct advantage in margin requirements and loan fees over longs. Further the restrictions placed on U.S. investors are not in place for the shorts in overseas markets. These individuals and firms collectively have the capital necessary to bring down the U.S. market in it's current weakened condition. It is our contention that either by being in league with the terrorists or in taking advantage of the "opportunity" presented...a world-wide consortium is actively shorting the U.S. market to hamstring it's economy and weaken it's power in the world. The terrorists among them may even be hoping for a global depression to result from these actions that will plunge the world into a new "Dark Age" where their brand of fundamentalism once flourished.
3. Our petition does not address put options trading or prevent any of the "covered" options strategies that involve short sales. The only change would be a larger amount of cash required to support the trade.
Simply put what we are trying to call attention to is the rampant sell orders coming in to our markets from outside the U.S. that use our own long positions as collateral to back their short positions. We are not saying that they make up ALL of the selling going on, but we do feel they are the catalyst fueling the downturn. They initiate a trend down, institutions follow and small investors get caught at the bottom of the pyramid. In this case when the market seems poised to recover or actually begins to rally the off-shore shorts initiate another wave. We have made it too inexpensive for them to do this...that must change.
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
20 boards, 18 peoples
It sounds like FG got a MMMARY injection. Even using some of the same rhetoric..."it's not spam if I say it isn't spam"!
Have Fun!
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
Gather in Afghanistan. All that wish for a "jihad" with America should gather in Afghanistan. Be prepared to defend OBL to the death from the American forces coming for him in Afaganistan. Travel from wherever you are to Afghanistan, Gather all of your brethren together.
All peaceful people should leave Afghanistan to OBL and his followers. Leave and return in 50 years or so when the radiation has returned to acceptable levels.
The Bird of Prey
The End Days are upon us.
Gary,
Per your request and with your permission I have completed the edit of the Short Selling Article and post it here for review with the intent to create a petition.
Stop Selling Short!
by Gary Swancey and David Weed
First I would like to say, I applaud anyone who stands up for this Nation and its people. Not many men have the courage to speak out about the true evil and wrong that directly affects the people of this country. Calling for the SEC to temporarily halt short selling gets my vote. However, I would like to voice a few concerns because a temporary halt of short selling will make the market a market of the people, by the people and for the people for at least a little while.
This composition concerns and focuses on Short Selling, the art of borrowing (legally stealing) people's hard-earned property for profit and gain to pre-sell the rightful owners property, thus manipulate a downward market and decline the value of the rightful owner's property.
The basis for this composition is simple; I bought a security and delivered the certificate to a broker. The broker instantly loaned out my property, that I bought and paid for with my own money, to a larger brokerage house. Something went wrong and when I called for my certificate I discovered that my broker could not deliver back to me a certificate for the property. After almost a year of trying to get my certificate, I received a "certificate of deposit" because there were no certificates available to be issued by the transfer agent. That meant the short position at the larger brokerage house needed my certificate of ownership as collateral to protect the short position. Thus my property (shares) could only be transferred within the brokerages of my brokerage firm's clearing house.
The bottom line is my brokerage firm's clearing house printed me a nice "certificate of deposit" but it does not bear the corporate seal or any identification from the company except that it shows I do own the property. I just can't get title of ownership. That belongs to the short position, which has my title of ownership for my property as collateral for a loan made by my broker thus selling my property. I can't vote the stock because the certificate of ownership is elsewhere as collateral. I can't get the money that the loaner made on selling my property nor any interest nor any thing but a deposit acknowledgment of that I do own the property. What it boils down to is a Short Seller has taken control of my property and thus my investment. Without any compensation to the property owner this short seller has the certificate and the broker will not force him to cover and release the certificate to its rightful owner.
Am I the only one that views this as a problem? I can not believe that short selling is allowed in America. Many reasons or rather excuses are given for allowing short selling. As you will see, none of them make much sense and most are against the law under any other circumstance.
Excuse #1 -Short-selling merely makes the market liquid.
That is true only because short shares are added to the available outstanding shares. Normally the company stock structure is set in the by-laws of the company. The outstanding share count increases with each short selling position that is performed. In some cases, the stock is shorted 100%, doubling the amount of stock available in the market. In other words, the company does not have any control over the amount stock out in the market, the short selling traders/investors do. It makes no difference what the legal corporate document's state. Shorting can easily double whatever figure was given in the Articles of Incorporation. Liquid? Yes. Good for long investors? I don't think so.
Excuse #2 - Short selling balances the inflationary effect of securities margin trading, thus contributing to price stability.
Even if short selling were performed only on marginal securities this statement would still lack merit. But when you consider that on the Margin Buy side, the individual or firm has to put up their own money and or collateral that they rightfully own in order to purchase shares. Whereas on the short sell side, they do not have to put anything that they own, they borrow (steal) from someone else for the upcoming short selling collateral basis to create false premise of a decline market.
Simply, short sellers go out and borrow (steal) from another person's long position to use as collateral to sell the stock value down. Thus making a false market taking out the concept of supply and demand. This false selling drives the market down, which is the exactly opposite of why the long-term investor (the real owner of the collateral) bought the security. The long investor has been robbed in accordance to the "theft by taking" laws. Plus the long investor has no rights or options or choices and gains NOTHING from this strategy (plain and simple thievery).
Example: You go into a casino and buy chips (shares) and take a place at the crap table (market). I walk up and buy chips and place my bets on the pass (call) and then to hedge by put a bet ( a buy in the market) on say the 8 (second highest combination of numbers with 7 being the highest combination). I decide to hedge my bet so I ask the casino guy if I can take some of your money as collateral because I do not want to use my money. He replies, "I do not care." So I very sneakily reach over into your chips without you knowing and take a few or all thus placing them on the "No Pass" (put). I begin making money on my legitimate bets. Finally, a "seven" rolls before the roller makes his mark. I loose all my money in my legitimate bets BUT I have winnings from what I won on my legitimate bets Plus the "No Pass." I collect my winnings from the "No Pass" and then sneakily return your chips to you and pocket the profit.
Immediately, I would be charged with "theft by taking" and I would be instantly arrested and hauled off to jail. My winnings would go back to the house or to you (if you knew about it) because it was your money that I used as collateral to make the gain. I would not have made a gain if I had not borrowed (stolen) your chips as collateral to make the hedge bet for profit and protection of my money.
Now say that the casino guy went over to your position at the table. Sneakily, he took your chips and loaned them to me. Then that is a fraud and a conspiracy to rob you by a couple of con men. The casino guy (broker) and myself (short) would be hauled off to jail. But you would get the winnings just the same. And if the hedge that your chips (stock) were used as collateral happen to have been lost, you could get back your property because one of the con men worked for the casino (market) that committed the crime.
Excuse #3 - No Harm, No Foul. Also known as "the Rightful Owner was not harmed" in any way.
This is very similar to a car thief arguing that since he stole the car and returned it while the owner was away on vacation...he only borrowed it and it wasn't stealing!
As any good prosecutor would have quickly reminded the car thief, even if he didn't damage the car during the "borrowing," the car had more mileage on it that the owner didn't put there. And the resulting "wear and tear" constitutes sufficient "damages".
In the case of our "borrowed" stock, the damages are even more glaring. Especially when our long investor bought his property at $20. Due to massive short selling the stock dropped to $6. There our intrepid short seller covers and "returns" the long investor's property minus $14 in value. Clearly the long investor has $14 per share in damages. The car thief gets 3-5 in state housing and the professional broker gets a new Mercedes?
Excuse #4 - Shorts provide a floor and they support the stock at the lows when they cover.
The whole concept is nonsense and has no merit. Once the Short Sellers have successfully destroyed the value and have capitulation, then they cover. Thus after taking someone else's property to destroy the property's value thus robbing the rightful owner they see it as a good thing because they support the market at the low. One the floor is where the short selling decides to no longer drive the price down. Second after capitulation they are now the good guys. That's like saying that the doctor that sneaks up behind you steals your wallet, beats the starch out of you is really your friend because he is tending to your wounds.
Surrender of right to control over the property owned by the rightful owners.
Obviously, the professionals on Wall Street don't want to go to jail so they invented the following:
When you deposit your property with a brokerage, you have to sign a surrender of right to ownership agreement and thus the broker has the right to loan out your holdings as per his own "Best Interest" not the client.
If a casino made you sign an agreement that your chips could be loaned to someone else before you could gamble then that would make it legal? Even if it did would you ever play there? The real point to this is that you have no options, choices or rights on property you own! If you wish to gamble (invest) you have to sign this agreement that basically gives the broker the right to loan (steal) your property to sell and profit from it. Now where does the agreement say you will be informed what is being done with your property or that you will receive anything for the loaning of your property or that the broker will perform their representations in your best interest.
The brokers that an investor goes to and places their holdings with, not to mention represents the investor's trades in the market, are supposed to be working in the investor's best interest. Every professional that a fee is paid to in hard-earned money is supposed to do what is in the best interest for the client. However by forcing a client to sign away their rights, the investor is basically paying this professional to rob the client blindly and profit from it in all aspects. It is beyond my ability to understand how the following is in the best interest of the rightful owner:
Thus a professional loaning out his clients long position property as collateral to someone else whom has not paid the owner for the property for the purpose of manipulating the short, and mostly likely the long-term, value of the property down, which basically hurts the client's investment value.
Is this strategy in the long investor's best interest when the sole point of short selling to manipulate the market down and affect the value of the rightful owner. Especially since the rightful owner of the property gets nothing for his hard-earned money that was paid to own the property.
Consider this, under the protection of the FDIC not one depositer has lost a penny since 1934! Since we are forced to deposit into a brokerage house (financial institution) that issues checkbooks and can LOAN out our property, are we protected by the FDIC? Especially when the financial institution then loans our property to individuals or firms whose intent is to harm the value of our investment! Does the FDIC cover the loss of my property value when it is loaned because my property was used to harm my investment value? What ever happen to the 5th Amendment in the Bill of Rights that forbids the taking of private property for public use without just compensation?
Full disclosure and right to know.
This applies to both the real owner and the potential buyer of the borrowed (stolen) collateral. The owner of the property has the right to full disclosure. He has a right to know when his property has been loaned. Of course, the person buying the loaned (stolen) property has a right to know also they are not buying the property from the real rightful owner. Since the Broker is basically a "fence", the broker should inform the potential buyer of the property that the seller is offering for sell is not the rightful owner but has borrowed (stolen) the property without the rightful owner's knowledge. Which brings up the point of the legal laws of buying stolen property. At least the buyer would then know the property was stolen and thus could lose all their money because what they are buying will not be rightfully theirs until the real owner decides to sell his ownership.
If someone borrows someone else's property as collateral this is fraud by existing laws of America. No where else does the law allow this to happen. People go to jail for this nonsense or for even trying it.
Short selling is an opportunists (criminals) way of manipulating (driving) the market down by the unadulterated weight of long-term holder's positions being sold into the market. For the sole purpose to drive the stock price (property value) on a downward path (false representation) so short sellers can make a turn between the price at which they sold someone's property for and the price which they bought it back to return to the rightful owner, without having to ever physically having to purchase the property or disclose anything to anyone.
Short selling is the practice of distorting and creating a false market.
Most investors make the assumption the market is one of integrity and that both the buyer and seller own the stock they witness in the trading. If the trading is not the rightful owners trading their position the market is absolutely false. Especially because the trading is represented in such a way to can give the impression there is more issued stock in a company than there really is. That is a total falsehood and thus a fraud or fraudulent market controlled by forces that do not really own anything.
Short sellers relentlessly distort any information so they can to justify the downward pressure they are creating.
There is a point to distorting the market trading and the information on a company, and that is the whole strategy is to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is the point at which short sellers tout themselves for a job well done, while the long term investor loses value through false pretenses. The negative criticism along with the negative movement in the stock price does have a very solid certain logic, capitulation so they can cover because those who sell at this point are really the investors who are the rightful owners of the stock (property) that was put up as collateral to sell the market down and crush property value.
Short Selling Potential Ponzi or Pyramid Scheme
Potential Pyramid Scheme is a fraudulent system of making money, which requires an endless stream of recruits (buyers) for success. Thus a short seller borrows some one's long position and sells it to someone else. That long position of the new buyer is now on the books and thus available for another short to borrow that position and sell it to yet another buyer and so forth and so on.
Potential Ponzi Scheme, is a fraudulent system of making money whereas a short seller borrows from one long position and sells it to someone. Then the short seller needs to cover so the short seller merely borrows from another long position to cover the first position the short borrowed against. The Short Seller never really covers or settles and so forth and so on. This is just one account. Imagine several or numerous.
Checks, Balances, & Regulation
Of course, once all this is presented, the short seller quickly change their excuse to the fact that there are no adequate checks and balances. They continue on with this logic that without regulation, short selling can be subject to abuse by market manipulators and detrimental to the market. However, one point the short sellers do not want is reporting because it is strictly voluntary. In other words, short sellers in the market whether regulated or not, listed or not, nobody really knows the extent of short positions in any one stock at any one time, and they do not want it to be known. But at all costs the short seller does not want to give up the ability to continue borrowing (free-riding or stealing) long-term positions that they can use as collateral to make a profit on. Short sellers do not want to hear anything about having to buy their collateral and then use it to short sell against. That would be absurd because that basically puts the whole concept back to supply and demand and the downward movement could nail them on the long side. This concept to short sellers this is totally unfair and criminal to no longer allows them to leverage against another investor's property.
I guess when the laws were being created that robbing banks, or fraudulently making representations to steal people's money or any of the theft by taking of other's property type tactics could be made acceptable by regulating this thievery. However these tactics are criminal activity by our existing laws in other circumstances.
Not just listed stocks OTCBB Market Maker Manipulation
Market Maker Manipulation is the practices of intentionally short selling a security to suppress the price (Value) of a security driving it downward regardless of increased demand. Should the market maker get caught short, the trading loses it volatility and eventually almost stops trading due to the Market Makers tactics, especially concerning OTCBB such as:
- spreading the gap between the bid and ask (20% or higher)
- locking the bid and ask at the same value
- boxing the bid and ask whereas the same market maker is on both
- not filling or executing orders
- Painting the paint (executing buys and sells to which ever side the Market Maker needs to show weakness)
- Rolling the tape (repeated small trades on the bid tanking the security price value)
- Etc.
However, these tactics are performed to stop buying interest and thus kill the public's confidence. Since Market Makers are suppose to be the only market influence that can short sell unmarginable securities, would not a short seller need a market maker? Short Sellers and the OTCBB Market Makers have no regulations to prevent them from viciously manipulating the trading. It is completely up to the short sellers and the market maker's best interest as to whether the price of a security goes up or go down. However, a declining share price is the preferred because they buy on the "Bid¨ and sell on the "Ask¨ in the OTC negotiated market. Thus the lower the price the market makers make that much more profit from small time investors.
The US market's Listed stocks have been shorted to incredible lows.
However, our off-shore elements (friendly, neutral or terrorist) are using this criminal strategy to crush the very foundation of our financial market. Further, the greedy within this country are right in there with those who would cripple America. This hedging strategy is the very vessel being used by our enemies to destroy the financial strength of America and at the same time finance their agenda's. The time for action is now. How far does out financial backbone get broke? When our market is at ZERO!
Short selling is actually criminal activity and punishable by the existing laws of this great nation
We must eliminate short selling or put into place extreme new restrictions on short sellers. The simplest being to require at least the same amount of collateral value at the time the short seller wishes to short sell some one's property. Disclose to the rightful owner his property is needed for shorting and thus give the owner the right to refuse loaning out his property for someone to sell. If the owner somehow does agree to his property being loaned out then the short seller should have to justly compensates the rightful owner for use of his property as collateral. Short Sellers should have to put up their own proper collateral and not that of someone else as is required when purchasing stocks.
This is America and the existing laws state basically, I have the right to sell what is mine. It states further than I can not sell what is not mine to sell, or use my neighbor's property as collateral. Following the existing laws of America, would requiring notification of the shareholder of his shares being "borrowed" (stolen) and notifying the buyer of the "borrowed" (stolen) nature of the shares he is purchasing would be a logical and just addition. Of course the preference is to put this practice in the category where it belongs...First Degree Felony. And place its practitioners where they belong...PRISON!