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Remember the odds are nearly a guarantee (sure thing) that if commons get shellacked so do jps.
There is absolutely no safety in jps and only a smidge less in commons.
If you are going to buy a lottery ticket, which this largely is, considering government crooks are in control (currently) why not buy the larger one if the odds are nearly the same (and they are) and this is irrefutable.
Peace be with you... as we are all in the same boat... just jps are one level up from steerage but both far below the water line... with (Waters) coming in in the middle of a quagmire of government sludge.
Would be grand... but until we get some release... it wont
good luck ya'll
1) A conversion offer will be just that: voluntary. FHFA cannot force a conversion on the juniors.
Yes they can...
They have all rights... all = all... not some..
Chess... exactly... the Jr. Prefs are really dreaming that the government would convert them at par value into the current share price of commons...
you know.. they think that the stated face or par value has any meaning to the government.
Nope... none at all.
In fact why should it. The government has all the rights of ownership of the jr prefs. they could easily convert them to say 1/4 share of common for each $25 jr pref... they can do whatever they want... and the courts have all said up to this point they can do whatever they want... there has been no curtailing their discretion.
Yet...
Jr. Prefs... they still... dream on.
My sense in doing the calculations, years ago was that at the regular tarp rate imposed by treasury... not this 10% joke of a rate that the journal entry would be more like
To both entities now...
Dr. Cash 100Billion
Cr. Interest income 70Billion
Dr. Income taxes 20 Billion
Dr. SPS 194Billion
Cr. RE 304 Billion
Cr. Tax Payable 20 Billion
Oh, the warrants will need to be shredded... too. (as that is a taking)
Need to then relist the shares on the NYSE...
Share value of common would then adjust upwards... and Pref Stock will then start receiving annual dividends at their face rates... likely trade at a small discount depending on stated divy' %.
Any additional capital needed could be raised by a secondary offering or series of them.
The win for government on all of this is... so simple and so clear... that
1. they'll be out of this mess (except settling lawsuits - for some 100billion or so in payments to shareholders for years of deception and chicanery)
2. they'll reap billions in taxes from shareholders selling their shares or earning dividends well into the future. (state, federal and various local)
3. this will spur the economy helping to end the recession.
Its really not that hard to get it right... they just have to do it.
I mean, they put them into "this mess" with a stroke of the pen, they sure could unwind it just as easily.
And, waiting on congress ... is a cop out. What a stupid and moronic thing to say... btw.
Sadly, Minuch was more interested in movies and less interested in the economy and doing what was right... i'll take a pass on him and catman (who was a dunce); next time maybe trump will put the right people in place that will make it happen and stop fooling around..
minuch... no catman... no .
Obviously this is wrong...
But that is far besides the point... in that Gov't won't be 79,9% and
there is nothing to suggest an inequity between jps and common. in fact some might suggest the ratio to be more like 3% jps and 17% Common based on value stolen. Remember only around 35B jps and 200B fvalue common.
Keeping it fair.
converting 4 $25 Jr. Pref for 1 common... will get everyone mad... but it could happen. Then get diluted by the warrants... so this would be a hard pill for them to swallow..
Hope they have some thing to wash it down.
Who ever wrote this is a mo ron.
completely incompetent.
$10 on common would be a discount or around 85% to value.
Haven't waited this long to be rooked like that.
But i will take $125 and walk away.
$10 for common... no
Probably take a discounted price and accept $125
There you go again... speculating... mere speculating... prefs in the hands of government is just as bad off as commons without any upside potential.
Catman is such tool.
He had his chance and was a total ... dud. a waste.
complete blank.
Yep. 100% disagree with you. And will correct you and the others whenever i have the time, so that others and newbies aren't misled by misinformation and wild speculation as if it were true / knowledgeable posts. As you don't know what will happen and considering our rights have been usurped by the evil government ... anything could.
Would agree with you...
Fnma and freddie are no more than a perpetual option until... either they prevail or go to zero.
For many its either they are worth $,$$$,$$$.00 or 0.00
If they are retirement gets a lot easier... if they don't still retire... and have a little less.
I believe the government after trying all the wrong things will eventually hit on the right answer and we will prevail... I just hope I live long enough.
promoting the warrants is akin to aiding and abetting criminal activity and those that do are not favorable. Akman and howard and others... shame on them.
Alternative?
You mean... the twins aren't in conservatorship... where the government has all the rights?
hmmm...
how is that?
facts is if common's get screwed so will prefs... probably even worse.... cause the gov't can. but, will they?
in what world can they put them into temporary conservatorship and take all their equity for 15 years?
Same one that can swap 4 $25 prefs for 1 common.
All rights IS all rights...
If commons get screwed in the end... so will prefs... there is no LOVE for the government...
So... bk or rec... not necessary to screw commons / prefs... easy easy to do...
You don't know that.
It could happen as the gov't has all the rights and privileges of ownership... they' can do what ever they want... question is what do they want?
Do they want to put the screws to the prefs??? they've already done it to the common... why not pick on the prefs... shucks... it could be the fun they need over the summer to get thru the dog days... you never know... you certainly don't...
Prefs could be diluted by conversion at fair value to the tune of 100 -1 where 4 $25 face prefs get 1 common in a forced exchange because the fhfa has all the rights of the prefs to do as they see fit. If the government wants to finish the job in a punitive measure they can make this happen.
Remember what's good for the government is bad for the prefs and commons and the government has 100% of the rights to do this.
Prefs and commons are in this together..
Either the commons and prefs prevail or they all fail.
facts is facts....
yep he could have had he wanted to but he didn't
The question here is whether the action taken is authorized by the section... if you can conclude that the net worth swipe is not authorized then; regardless of whether its in the best interest of the agency which is of course the case then its not allowed.
So, if the taking of money beyond which was lent as not authorized.... then boom its BS.
Read them... but since all of the rights have been suspended and transferred to fhfa during conservatorship ... don't rely on them until the veil is lifted.
While i'd prefer the fhfa and their band of badguys and grinches do the right thing...
Its pretty clear, that after 15 years they really don't care about any of the shareholders common or prefs.
So, yes i hope commons realize fairvalue as do prefs.
but the cram down could happen.
obviously you don't know this to be true... its just your opinion and everyone has one.
it could happen... there is no assiduity that prefs will ever see face value if forced redemption by the caregivers ... conservators... who have all the rights and powers of the shareholders and could say... ok. and... wholla... its done.
Prefs could be redeemed at $1 for every $100 in face value. About equal to the demonetization of the common so fhfa could just call it fair value and use their rights to make it happen.
Dear Raging...
Stop...
Please don't insert any logic or reasoning into this... the government has things so wonked that you trying to speak sanely will be summarily dismissed and muck up their narrative.
Crazy... but all the sensible judges and government people have been out to lunch for so long... they are still eating the lotus flowers...
Peace...
In the end Calabria was a dolt.
A mindless twit
Sadly he had all the powers to make this happen as fhfa director with limitless power... it could have been done but he did not make it right.
They put them in they can take them out.
101% wrong on all accounts.
Cheers.
Problem with old Tim...is he has bought into the warrants are good for commons theory.
The reality is commons are fruit of a poison tree and will touch off many lawsuits which aren't yet ripe on a takings claim.
The takings claims were denied because... while the government has usurped 100% control of the companies and "rights" to 80% ownership... they've not actually done it yet. And, the judges have bought off on the "temporary" nature of the control ... the intangible rights / benefits of share holders having been only temporarily taken... ie... borrowed.
And the 5th amendment only considers takings... not borrowings... even if the value has been squandered. If you give back a dead carcass then, it wasn't taken.. only borrowed and the takings clause doesn't apply.
Complete the circuit... take the stock... and its... electrified.... takings kick in. lawsuit.
If all the bad of fhfa and the conservatorship and such... all of it ... all of the bad things came out of hera...
The single dictatorship
So very much.
So why not argue to the root that ...
Granting government 100% control of gse's and the taking authority all came out of hera... so argue that's unconstitutional...
if everything goes back the law and the law is junk... then fight the junk.!
Why not challenge HERA itself... rather than the poison that came from it...
Hera... allowed the taking of the companies "intangible rights and shareholder value for nothing" ... Hera is the evil.
We all know you are wrong because if that were that case then if the greedyment ... took 80% their shares would be worth the same value and effectively 8c and ... everybody knows that's simply not going to ever... never..
However, it would be far easier to cancel the warrants.. deem the sps paid and put these two back on their feet... and go forward... than
what is speculated here...
I'd like to see HERA challenged.
Go for the root of the problem.
Should have challenged hera... its still not too late.
one has to think... that eventually, the judges in the supreme court are going to wake up... and say...
Hey, sure are a lot of writs and petitions coming out of the take over of fnma and fmcc... must be something there.... hmmmmmmmmm...... maybe we out to take one of these cases and actually... you know... actually do some digging see whats what and settle something...
it sure would open up our calendars.....
Now, i realize the can't just come down from on high and without a case brought before them, say.... this is wrong and this is the fix...
so take a case and ...fix it already!
You do know that these "capital rules" are all made up by people. And people can change their minds or get educated or realize that its excessive.
Finally, even without the return of $$ taken; sps canceled. with No warrants their value per issued and outstanding share goes way up.... So, they can easily raise a few billion under terms much more favorable and since the current shareholder wouldn't have been screwed they'd be in a better position. ....
Its completely doable.
Remember humans created / conjured up this mess.... they can fix it.
So you have no faith in the US government...
eventually... they very well may do the right thing....
if they do the value will come thru.
Only question is ... will they or will they crush the pref and common shareholders... right now they are holding them back... but will they finish them off?
I firmly believe that at some point they have to unwind this mess if they do we (prefs and commons) are all golden... if they don't... then everyone loses; no in between and no safe harbors...
Read the post... dude...
I mentioned if the government does the right thing.. eventually, they may have too.
and doesn't screw everyone.
Sure, its an investment for me. Looking for eventually, getting fair value or consideration for the rights that have been ripped from the shareholders. Yes, i believe there has been a taking and i believe after 15 years its, ripe. After the dust settled on the crazy period of 2008 or so.. it became clear they used it as cover to steal the gse's from the shareholders. Its sad that the corruption and collusion of the government has perpetuated the cover-up of the steal.
What should happen should have happened a decade ago. And since there are no honest people in government that take responsibility for fixing the charade our only hope is that the mountain will be so high that they'll have to consider actually doing the right thing.
The right thing means commons will be worth $125+ per share (probably more) and prefs trade back to near face value and discounted / premium for yield. Getting government out of the gse's business would encompass returning excess money while noting the sps as fully compensated, voiding the warrants and relisting the entities. Then move internally, setting up a real board of directors w/ the Fhfa having some C-suite level guidance.
The problem here is government is greedy. They've been gyrating to consider how to squeeze every dollar out of these golden gooses they can... and that includes crushing not only the common by the jr prefs. Its a scorched earth approach and the government is good at it.
So, sure i am an investor... i am looking forward to getting 3% dividends annually on $150 share common... to supplement my retirement cash flow - with some of it in Roth IRA. Would be nice to get like $10,000 a quarter tax free. Gonna cruise often and play a lot of golf ... And if it all goes up in smoke it will because of the government corruption but won't really hinder my retirement.