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“Putting a fast charging station at a convenience store or a truck stop becomes much easier. You just drop a container down in the parking lot, and cars can get an 80 percent charge in 15 or 20 minutes and pay in the store. And once a week or every few days, a hydrogen tanker comes by and refuels the container.”
This sounds so easy ! "You just drop a container down in the parking lot, and cars can get an 80 percent charge in 15 or 20 minutes and pay in the store."
Moving a container of liquid hydrogen ? Dropping it down in a convenience store parking lot ? Every few days? This is a figment of someone's imagination !
This concept doesn't exist in reality; Let alone the engineering, permitting, approvals.
Monroe's stock and credibility just went way down.
WTM - Not True ! The word "can" should be "will" or better, "might" .
The reality is that this is a very limited application and the economics are prohibitive.
Take 2 X electricity to make 1 X of hydrogen. Store in an expensive, high-pressure vessel or costly thermos (if liquid) and then ship/transport to a station which also needs an expensive pressure vessel or thermos.
There is a limit to the price the market will bear. The Bad News is that PLUG doesn't know what this price elasticity is.
The build it and they will come philosophy only applies if the hydrogen is economical and convenient.
"Their goal is to make Plug Power look bad/incompetent, to postpone the use of hydrogen."
I think PLUG is doing an excellent job of doing this all by themselves.
No. Toyota, Hyundai, Renault, Honda,
BMW.
Banger - I think Microsoft is waiting for hydrogen prices to come down and in line with other alternatives.
There still isn't very much green hydrogen and the cost for backup power, fuel cells, transport and storage is still more than double some other MS choices.
Steve - The people I spoke to should have known all of those things ... and didn't!!!
Furthermore, the plant itself has become a money pit. No one knows what the final price will be, but we know that it's already over budget.
Do you think that maybe Ole knew and that's why he bailed ?
WTM - I have been asking that question to PLUG's Sr management for more than 4 years and I have never had a straight answer. Now that the plants are operating there is empirical data, but still no straight answers.
That makes me very nervous.
WTM - Please read the article a little more critically. Not what PLUG "can" do but what they are doing.
How much green Hydrogen are they producing ... I'll accept a daily average.
How much does green Hydrogen cost PLUG to produce all in. Again I'll accept an average / weighted average.
Don't tell us " we will or we can" ; the real world word are, " we are" , as in , " We are producing 3 tons of green hydrogen per Day at an all in cost of $6.15/kg."
It would also be nice to have a breakout from both locations.
WTM - You and I and everyone else still don't know how much green Hydrogen PLUG is producing and at what cost.
The Forbes rally is a Nothing Burger.
Every PLUG rally fades within a few days and so will this one.
There is no news or legs associated with this story.
WTM - Do you know why my post didn't have any key quotes like you included ?
No one really cares about what you or I think are key quotes.
Let the article and quotes speak for themselves.
Btw - This is a planted puff piece to stop the bleeding. There's no news event related to it.
Interesting Article:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2023/09/13/plug-power-shows-green-hydrogens-potential-at-a-competitive-cost/
I'll believe it when I see it.
How lucky that this article comes out during another PLUG slide.
Then why is it addressed /reply to me ? jack ash of no trades ...
jammy - Are you asking me a question ?
I don't know the answer. And if you look at my most recent post before this , Is this a Bash?
"Here is the Agenda for the October Mega-Symposium :
https://www.plugpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/PlugSymposium2023Agenda2_Web090123.pdf
See you there."
Here is the Agenda for the October Mega-Symposium :
https://www.plugpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/PlugSymposium2023Agenda2_Web090123.pdf
See you there.
The IRA delay is just more downward pressure on PLUG's share price.
Even a small change in the IRA language could crush PLUG's future.
Andy says and I agree:
"I know that the path to profitability is really important to investors and if we start executing and showing investors that Plug can make money and can generate cash as well as continue to grow, I think investors will reward us."
"If we start executing...".
Aren't we a little late in the game to just begin realizing that execution is important.
PLUG ability to execute is in question and highly suspect.
WTM - Now we're talking. Finally !
Andy's answers touch on some of my points. What if the IRA rules change?
We need to be looking at hydrogen pricing. If hydrogen costs $12-$16-$20 to the user, who is going to buy hydrogen?
Who is going to buy Electrolyzers to make hydrogen?
Who is going to buy Fuel Cells that use hydrogen?
What happens to PLUG's business model if hydrogen is too expensive to use except for forklifts ?
Microsoft knows the answer.
Fedex knows the answer. MULAG knows the answer.
So do Ole, FFI, Twiggy Forrest,
BoB - I've printed your post, and I will keep it in view so that we can watch the milestones and targets.
Let's see if Andy can make me eat my words.
WTM - Just because Elon and others do it doesn't make it right; and Tesla's share price has been damaged by Elon's lies as well.
Andy is NOT the right man for this next phase in PLUG, period. Neither is Sanjay.
PLUG needs a Real CEO ... good luck finding one who will move to Latham.
WTM - I don't disagree. But it is time for ANDY to stand aside.
You did a very nice job of listing some of Andy's achievements, but you forgot to mention his negatives.
His credibility with Wall Street and the Trade Press is terrible. It is very easy to lose credibility and very difficult to restore it.
Andy, in his attempts to restore his credibility has only made the situation worse.
His and PLG's ability to execute is terrible. They miss nearly every goal line and target. A real CEO needs to come in and restore PLUG's credibility and hit the goals.
WTM - Irony.
Your memory is weak. Look at my posts from September 2019 . ALL POSITIVE.
As for your question, I did answer your question.
WTM, We already had the bump for IRA, we already had the bump for Georgia, we may still get a bump for the DOE money.
BUT ... The trend for PLUG is DOWN ! Without a MAJOR Positive catalyst, like a NEW Real CEO, the trend is DOWN.
None of the items I have listed is a Major catalyst or BIG enough to reverse the trend.
Funny, Just last week I posted possible NEGATIVE CATALYSTS that could negatively affect the share price.
Who remembers:
"Bad News like : IRA delay; Georgia delay; DOE Money delay and PLUG goes to the $5.00's"
I also said the long term trend is DOWN, and it will take a major positive catalyst like Andy leaving to reverse this trend.
On the other hand, a major negative catalyst could take PLUG to the $5.00's
WTM - I agree with Elon.
Building out a hydrogen infrastructure for hydrogen vehicles is NOT the highest and best use of hydrogen.
All of that money wasted on stations could be better used on other / better applications.
Different horses for different courses.
There's a role for hydrogen, but let's make sure we are getting the biggest bang for our buck.
Who would attack Green Hydrogen and why?
You might not believe it, but I am pro green hydrogen and don't know who or why someone would attack this option.
I might not like PLUG as an investment, and I don't like the economics, but I am a huge supporter of green energy and lower carbon.
mac - Perhaps, but hydrogen will always be at least 2-X the price of the electricity used to produce it.
Mac - What will get reversed one day ?
The Laws of Physics ?
The Laws of Thermodynamics?
Good luck with that mac. Maybe Senator Schumer can help get that passed in Congress.
There is a Nobel Prize in Physics for you if you can figure it out . Go For It.
Mac - And I'm referring to Hydrogen. Hydrogen will cost us even more dearly, since it takes two units of power to make one unit of Hydrogen.
Mac - Now we're talking. Finally !
We need to be looking at hydrogen pricing. If hydrogen costs $12-$16-$20 to the user, who is going to buy hydrogen?
Who is going to buy Electrolyzers to make hydrogen?
Who is going to buy Fuel Cells that use hydrogen?
What happens to PLUG's business model if hydrogen is too expensive to use except for forklifts ?
Microsoft knows the answer. Fedex knows the answer. MULAG knows the answer.
So does Ole, FFI, Twiggy Forrest,
Mac - Did you noticed I dropped the "green" and mention just hydrogen ?
Do you know why?
BoB - I hear that making Green Hydrogen is expensive.
I hear liquifying hydrogen is expensive.
I hear storing hydrogen is expensive.
I hear shipping is expensive.
I hear retrofitting existing infrastructure for hydrogen is expensive
I hear FFI management figured this out and have shuttered the business.
Steve - Funny Just this week I posted possible NEGATIVE CATALYSTS that could negatively affect the share price.
Who remembers:
"Bad News like : IRA delay; Georgia delay; DOE Money delay and PLUG goes to the $5.00's"
I also said the long term trend is DOWN, and it will take a major positive catalyst like Andy leaving to reverse this trend.
On the other hand, a major negative catalyst could take PLUG to the $5.00's
Mik - I am a bit confused based on your post.
Do you own two Toyota FCEV pickup trucks?
Or
Do you simply own two Toyotas?
And are any a Mirai?
WTM - And that is just one of the major negative catalysts hanging over PLUG.
If one of more of these happens, we could easily see $5.00's.
WTM - I'm not gloating, but there is an irony when the only guy who can afford an Alt Fuel car is the guy who is SHORT Alt Fuels.
Mac - Me either. I wouldn't own a BEV or a FCEV.
If you aren't in SOCAL, owning a FCEV is useless.
Were you following your buddy in a FCEV? Hybrid ?
Shocking !
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Front+St,+Lahaina,+HI/[@ userid=156].6982789,3737m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x79552bb09896f1b5:0x8cfe061dae360a8a!8m2!3d20.8720518!4d-156.6773254!16s%2Fg%2F1vzv3w6w?entry=ttu
WTM - You raise an interesting point !
Do you own a Hydrogen Vehicle ? Does anyone on this board drive a hydrogen vehicle ? WHY NOT ?
If hydrogen is so great , how come no " TRUE BELIEVER " owns one? This speaks volumes.
WTM - " within a year or two at the most, all hydrogen for hydrogen cars will be green or produced with zero emissions."
Based on the pace of the Green Hydrogen production and station buildout, that means there will not be very many FCEV's.
But still I'm not interested, because it's still going to take an hour plus to refuel at a limited number of stations. Whereas I have NO Range or time limitations.
WTM - Why would I buy a Hydrogen vehicle ?
I am striving for a Zero-Carbon footprint, and hydrogen is NOT Zero-Carbon.
My car's computer tells me that I'm ZEV more than 90% of the time, and I can refuel anywhere in just 10 minutes. So no range issues.
If everyone cut their carbon output by 90% there wouldn't be a climate issue.
WTM - Actually, since that article was published the fill times have increased !
Is it more FCEV's or fewer Hydrogen stations ? Probably a bit of both.