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SEC....
try putting in a market order to buy 10,000 TOVC shares and see if anything happens...
A commercializing event......
...will make jessepatroon look like Henny Youngman....LOL
LOL...!!
You are way funnier than you used to be...!
We know the answer to that now...
For putting up with BS like yours...
and what they get are normal in the course of running a public company...the other shares that they can get are on a performance basis...if they don't deliver they don't get anything...unlike a former group of people who got millions for building a website...
I like pay for performance and I bet there are many others that do here as well...
I will be conducting an exhaustive series of interviews with her to determine her eligibilty for the position....
And, after agreeing to over-medicate a select group of residents, lynx has been offered the nurses position at Tor Acres...
October Market Maker activity...
For the month of October, UBS accounted for 47% of the 591,740 shares traded with 281,261. The distant #2 MM on the list was Jeffries at 11%...there are roughly 25 MM's on TOVC....
Year-to-date UBS has accounted for 36% of the 1,723,544 shares traded....Knight Equity came in at # 2 YTD with 15%
UBS do love them some Torvec...
Yes...
The newest version of Torvec's FTV is invisible....it's actually in the announcement, we just are unable to see it...
With a small percentage of my profits from my Torvec investment, I hope to build that nursing home so that all of us can live there grow old together.....I'm going to call it Tor Acres...
It's going to have an FTV course out back and a computer center so that on the days we don't feel up to wheeling ourselves into the activity center, we can go to the computer center and sign on to GoogleHub to swap Torvec stories from the old days ...I can see us now in the cafeteria eating prunes and me saying things like "geewhiz (we will have stopped swearing by then),even I didn't think Torvec would hit $67 a share" and
"remember when you had 3 different aliases..." and " I really miss dyna that miserable old coot...the negativity just wore him out..I wished he could have been happier...God bless him" and "Oh look..there's JG...he seems to be getting younger every day...I guess $180 million will do that to you.." and "I still can't believe dread bought Ihub and took it public and sold it to google for $400 million"
I took an excerpt from the MM' piece to highlight what these guys do..
"Some ways MM's entice sellers; Run the stock up with a "tight spread" in a fast market, then "open" up the spread to slow down the buying interest. After it has "cooled off" for a little while lower the offer below the last trade right after a small piece trades on the offer then tighten the spread so that the sellers feel they can take a "quick profit" by "hitting the bid" on the tight spread.
Once the selling starts the MM's will walk it down quickly by only making small prints on the way down with the tight spread. Another way is by running the stock up in the morning, averaging up their short then use the above technique to walk it down in the afternoon.
Hopefully after doing this for several days, it will demoralize the buyers. The volume will dry up and the sellers will materialize thinking that the game is over.
To make you cranky..LOL
...I don't get worked up over the price on a day-to-day basis because I'm holding until the grand finale...
I do pay attention to the MM action..it's interesting to watch these guys operate...MM's jack with these stocks every day..TOVC included...look at artguys article on UBS under investigation for manipulation of Treasuries...I have copied below the piece I found last week on MM's and how they operate...these guys short this stuff all the time...they are also masters at creating a "feel" that suggests selling is the right thing to do and voila..they shake some shares out of a weak hand...they know how to create momentum in both directions..
"I was an OTC MM for about 10 years ending in the late 80's. Since then I have been strictly an investor. Since I have not been that up to date in MM rules I will only make statements that I feel fairly confident are still accurate regarding these activities. By and large most MM don't have a clue nor do they care to learn, about the fundamentals of the stocks they trade.
They just try to make orderly markets. When dealing with BB stocks it is very easy for a MM to get trapped into being short in dealing in a fast moving market. Reason being; most of the MM's in this stock are what are called "wholesalers" this means they don't have retail brokers "working" the stocks.
So they have to rely on what's known as the "call" from larger retail houses. If a "Big" retail firm like an E-trade calls up a market maker to purchase say 5,000 shares of a stock, they expect to get an "execution" from that market maker. If he turns them down, or only gives a partial then the "Big" firm will go to another MM.
If this second MM "fills the order" then that "Big" firm has a moral obligation to continue to give future "business" in that stock to that MM who performed (his life blood). This will go on until he "fails" to perform and so on.
Contrary to popular opinion the "Big" firms Do NOT neccessarily go to the "Low Offer" to fill a buy order (Or high bid for a sell). They "Go" to who they think will perform to fill the order and expect that MM to "match" the "low offer" in the case of a buy (bid in the case of a sell). Even though this MM might in fact be the "high bid" and not really want to sell any more.
As a wholesaler he must perform or he will get a reputation as a "non-performer" with the "Big" houses and will cease getting "calls" which means he will soon go out of business. I mentioned above that this activity is very significant to BB stocks. I say this because most of the trades in these BB stocks are "unsolicited" and are done through discount houses.
With the above groundwork laid, let me try to explain how market makers get short even if they like the Company; Lets say that a stock (shell) has been lying quietly at $.25 bid $.50 offered. A limit order comes into one of the MM's to Buy at $.50 for a thousand shares. Prior to this trade that MM may be "flat" (neither long or short any shares). He fills the order and is now short 1,000 shares. He may raise his bid hoping to find a seller to "flatten" out his position. But before he realizes it a wave of buyers have come in and cleared out all the $.50 offers. Now the stock is $.50 bid .75 offered. Here comes that "Big" firm he just sold the 1,000 shares to at .50 with another bid for 1000 at .75. He makes this print. Now he is short 2,000 at an average of .625. The market keeps moving and now its .75 bid 1.00 offered. Now he has to make a decision.
Just like investors, MM Hate to take a loss. So 9 times out of 10 he will now sell 2000 at 1.00 making him short 4000 but with an average .81. At this time he would love to see a seller at .75 so he can cover his short and make a few bucks.
But instead the market keeps moving up. Now it is 1.00 to 1.25 and here comes the buyer again at 1.25. He doesn't want to lose the call so now he needs to sell 4,000 at 1.25 to keep his break even point above the bid. Now he is short 8,000. Market moves up to 1.25 bid 1.50 offer here comes the buyer now he feels he must sell 8000 here because "stocks don't go up forever".
Now he is short 16,000. And so on and so on. If the stock keeps moving up, before he realizes it he could be short 50k or 100k shares (depending how big his bank is). _________________________
Finally the market closes for the day and on paper he may look all right in that his "break even" price may be around the closing price. But now he has to figure out how to entice sellers so he can cover this short. It is important to note that if this happened to one MM it has probably happened to most all of them.
Some ways MM's entice sellers; Run the stock up with a "tight spread" in a fast market, then "open" up the spread to slow down the buying interest. After it has "cooled off" for a little while lower the offer below the last trade right after a small piece trades on the offer then tighten the spread so that the sellers feel they can take a "quick profit" by "hitting the bid" on the tight spread.
Once the selling starts the MM's will walk it down quickly by only making small prints on the way down with the tight spread. Another way is by running the stock up in the morning, averaging up their short then use the above technique to walk it down in the afternoon.
Hopefully after doing this for several days, it will demoralize the buyers. The volume will dry up and the sellers will materialize thinking that the game is over.
Contrary to popular opinion, MM usually Do Not Cover in Fast moving markets either Up or Down if they are short. They Short More. They usually try to cover after the frenzy is out of the market. There are many other techniques they use but the above are the most popular.
This technique works about 9 times out of 10 particularly in a BB market. However that is because 9 out of 10 BB stocks are BS. Remember what I said above. Most MM's don't have a clue as to the value of a Company until they get trapped. If the Company has solid fundementals and a bright future. Then the stock will do very well. And the activity that caused the situation will prove to even help the future stock activity because it created an audience."
Ultimatley...
I believe the share price of TOVC will be well north of where it is today, aided by short covering.......
I hope the short position continues to grow...
greetings...
If we knew all those answers we would be wealthy...LOL
I predict that next month the published short position in TOVC will be larger than last month. Also, I noticed that last month for the first time in 18 months UBS was dethroned as the #1 MM on TOVC. Knight took over that slot by a thin margin last month. They have been very active on both sides today...sound familiar...?
"I will not miss the quiet"........
I think it's goin to get quieter.....(Is quieter a word?...)
Some things are coming into focus for me...
This isnot a dig on the Torvec management team, but the info in this letter in the 8k made a light bulb go on for me..(I know many of you think my lights went out years ago)... This statement in the letter from Metzner has me paying very close attention...
"Facilitating a Business Combination with a Major Chinese Automotive Manufacturer
Torvec has been negotiating with a major Chinese automotive manufacturer for a business combination involving one or more of the company’s automotive technologies. The negotiations are in their final stages. ACG will assist Torvec in implementing the best strategy to enable the company to achieve its goals in connection with this business opportunity."
It occurred to me that if Torvec is going to ink a deal with SAIC, there would be numerous governmental clearance issues that must be hurtled and that Torvec does not have the in house capacity to swim through those waters...Torvec needs ACG to help complete the deal....and from a shareholders perspective, here is a consultant that is willing to LOWER their fee to get in the game with Torvec and take warrants with strike price at market..!! How refreshing is that...they must want in for a reason...
I am paying very close attention right now....the game is changing right in front of our eyes...the company is putting in place the pieces they need to win it...
Here's at least a partial answer to the Dems vs. Repub issue as it relates to the lobbyist firm hired by Torvec...
This is from ACG's website...
AMERICAN CONTINENTAL GROUP, HILL SOLUTIONS AND PUGLIESE ASSOCIATES FORM STRATEGIC ALLIANCE
The American Continental Group, LLC has announced a strategic alliance with two prominent government relations firms - Hill Solutions and Pugliese Associates. The strategic alliance will "enable us to bring cross pressures to bear for our clients and come up with solutions that are bi-partisan and multi-dimensional, resulting in successful government relations for all our clients," explains David Urban, Managing Director of the American Continental Group.
The "combination of experience and expertise creates a heretofore unattainable level of capabilities for our clients" claims Rocco Pugliese, principal of Pugliese Associates. Mr. Pugliese went on to say, "[w]e're thrilled to be joining forces . . . this strategic alliance provides our clients with powerful bipartisan advocacy in both the state and federal capitals." Eric Wienberg, co-founding partner of Hill Solutions, also believes that the newly formed alliance will provide "some real bipartisan firepower."
The combination of American Continental Group's Republican-based advocacy, Hill Solutions Democratic-based advocacy, and Pugliese Associates State-based advocacy, will allow for a symbiotic relationship that will immensely benefit clients of all three firms.
As an example of the newly formed relationship, the Housing Authority of the City of Pittsburgh, has recently chosen to hire both American Continental Group and Pugliese Associates to handle their government relations needs. As envisioned in the agreement, American Continental Group will represent the federal interests of the Housing Authority while Pugliese Associates will handle any state interests. While American Continental Group, Hill Solutions, and Pugliese Associates will keep their own separate identities and client bases, all three firms expect to execute similar contracts in the future.
Good question....
Maybe thats why the high powered lobbyist firm was brought in...they make money influencing politicians regardless of party...they're like double agents
Based on the information that the company has brought forth during the last few months, it appears that we as investors don't have to be relying soley on one deal...there appear to be lots of irons in the fire...some of those irons may be hot behind the scenes and the quiet period keeps us from knowing that....
Based on the recent behavior of the company, if I were in negotiations or due dilignece with Torvec, I wouldn't drag the process out....this tech could be gone to another party before you can say "Bob's your Uncle".
Interesting...
The company appears to have had the "governmental" wheels turning for a while.....Flaum arrives with very high level connections and increases the velocity of the governmental activities...My hunch is American Continental is a Flaum connection and is here to help Torvec cross the finish line on a few things...
Started to do some quick homework on them...this group appears very connected....Metzner, the guy quoted in the release was appointed by Bush to Vice Chair an organization...
I am going to sniff around a little on this group...
One thing is for sure...the talent that the company has been assembling to assist appear to have actual high level connections...the pace continues to pick up....as for timing of things to come, I would expect the quiet times to continue for a little longer which is fine with me...
Add this to the growing list of things going on at Torvec that suggest that our wait will be worth it...
Hi lynx...
there are a few here who willnot acknowledge the CEO update/8k that tells us that with all that is going on, the queit period will continue as needed....they are not acknowledging it on purpose because they want to come on the forum here on 11/2 with their hair on fire laucnhing the "see...nothing happened..they lied to us" bashfest...
I say Hakuna Matta....
Have a nice weekend everyone.....
You don't think your fooling anyone with this stuff do you fifty..?
Now...
add back the portion of the dilution caused by the devaluation effect (hard to put a number on) on the share price over time due to shorting and both your and dread's return numbers go up a fair amount...
Dont confuse lack of a deal with lack of results..
The results of the company's efforts from the last several months appear to be generating interest and creating value...a deal or two will escalate the creation of value. While we're in the pre-deal phase of Torvec's existence, it remains a playground for the MM's to have their way with it....
You don't like dilution...
As a development company with no revenues yet, Torvec has paid for goods and services with stock...when the price gets hit by shorts and lowered, the company has had to use more shares to pay for these same services that it pays less shares for when the stock is at higher values...that causes dilution...the devaluation of the stock from being shorted hurts the long term investor...
Interesting read for anyone looking to get some feel for what happens behind the scenes of OTCBB stocks and MM's...found it on the net...thanks again to Al Gore for inventing the internet...
"I was an OTC MM for about 10 years ending in the late 80's. Since then I have been strictly an investor. Since I have not been that up to date in MM rules I will only make statements that I feel fairly confident are still accurate regarding these activities. By and large most MM don't have a clue nor do they care to learn, about the fundamentals of the stocks they trade.
They just try to make orderly markets. When dealing with BB stocks it is very easy for a MM to get trapped into being short in dealing in a fast moving market. Reason being; most of the MM's in this stock are what are called "wholesalers" this means they don't have retail brokers "working" the stocks.
So they have to rely on what's known as the "call" from larger retail houses. If a "Big" retail firm like an E-trade calls up a market maker to purchase say 5,000 shares of a stock, they expect to get an "execution" from that market maker. If he turns them down, or only gives a partial then the "Big" firm will go to another MM.
If this second MM "fills the order" then that "Big" firm has a moral obligation to continue to give future "business" in that stock to that MM who performed (his life blood). This will go on until he "fails" to perform and so on.
Contrary to popular opinion the "Big" firms Do NOT neccessarily go to the "Low Offer" to fill a buy order (Or high bid for a sell). They "Go" to who they think will perform to fill the order and expect that MM to "match" the "low offer" in the case of a buy (bid in the case of a sell). Even though this MM might in fact be the "high bid" and not really want to sell any more.
As a wholesaler he must perform or he will get a reputation as a "non-performer" with the "Big" houses and will cease getting "calls" which means he will soon go out of business. I mentioned above that this activity is very significant to BB stocks. I say this because most of the trades in these BB stocks are "unsolicited" and are done through discount houses.
With the above groundwork laid, let me try to explain how market makers get short even if they like the Company; Lets say that a stock (shell) has been lying quietly at $.25 bid $.50 offered. A limit order comes into one of the MM's to Buy at $.50 for a thousand shares. Prior to this trade that MM may be "flat" (neither long or short any shares). He fills the order and is now short 1,000 shares. He may raise his bid hoping to find a seller to "flatten" out his position. But before he realizes it a wave of buyers have come in and cleared out all the $.50 offers. Now the stock is $.50 bid .75 offered. Here comes that "Big" firm he just sold the 1,000 shares to at .50 with another bid for 1000 at .75. He makes this print. Now he is short 2,000 at an average of .625. The market keeps moving and now its .75 bid 1.00 offered. Now he has to make a decision.
Just like investors, MM Hate to take a loss. So 9 times out of 10 he will now sell 2000 at 1.00 making him short 4000 but with an average .81. At this time he would love to see a seller at .75 so he can cover his short and make a few bucks.
But instead the market keeps moving up. Now it is 1.00 to 1.25 and here comes the buyer again at 1.25. He doesn't want to lose the call so now he needs to sell 4,000 at 1.25 to keep his break even point above the bid. Now he is short 8,000. Market moves up to 1.25 bid 1.50 offer here comes the buyer now he feels he must sell 8000 here because "stocks don't go up forever".
Now he is short 16,000. And so on and so on. If the stock keeps moving up, before he realizes it he could be short 50k or 100k shares (depending how big his bank is). _________________________
Finally the market closes for the day and on paper he may look all right in that his "break even" price may be around the closing price. But now he has to figure out how to entice sellers so he can cover this short. It is important to note that if this happened to one MM it has probably happened to most all of them.
Some ways MM's entice sellers; Run the stock up with a "tight spread" in a fast market, then "open" up the spread to slow down the buying interest. After it has "cooled off" for a little while lower the offer below the last trade right after a small piece trades on the offer then tighten the spread so that the sellers feel they can take a "quick profit" by "hitting the bid" on the tight spread.
Once the selling starts the MM's will walk it down quickly by only making small prints on the way down with the tight spread. Another way is by running the stock up in the morning, averaging up their short then use the above technique to walk it down in the afternoon.
Hopefully after doing this for several days, it will demoralize the buyers. The volume will dry up and the sellers will materialize thinking that the game is over.
Contrary to popular opinion, MM usually Do Not Cover in Fast moving markets either Up or Down if they are short. They Short More. They usually try to cover after the frenzy is out of the market. There are many other techniques they use but the above are the most popular.
This technique works about 9 times out of 10 particularly in a BB market. However that is because 9 out of 10 BB stocks are BS. Remember what I said above. Most MM's don't have a clue as to the value of a Company until they get trapped. If the Company has solid fundementals and a bright future. Then the stock will do very well. And the activity that caused the situation will prove to even help the future stock activity because it created an audience."
"In fact if your naked short BS is correct it will help drive the price up faster on a positive announcement as they try to cover."
Agreed....
Let's go with the assumption for the moment that my naked short BS is accurate...That would mean there is a MM or player connected to a MM that has affected the share price of TOVC by selling shares they don't own..those actions cause downword pressure on the stock and cause weak hands to sell shares....they have played a role in affecting the value of your investment
"I did and still do beleive that the shorts will have no effect on Torvec" ...... they already have and have done so for years....
How big do you think the unpublished naked short position is..?
For the record...you said that it couldn't be shorted and that I was full of s---....it can...and I'm not...
Yes..thats the published short position...
Still think TOVC cannot be shorted...?
Published short position more than doubled from last month...
anyone want to guess what the unpublished short position did last month....yesterdays action in the afternoon had "short" written all over it...
TOVC $
Torvec Inc
Shares Short 120,200
Days to Cover (Short Ratio) 6.7
Short % of Float 0.73 %
Shares Short - Prior 52,141
Short % Increase / Decrease 130.53 %
Squeeze Ranking™
% from 52-Wk HIGH ( 0.00 ) %
% from 52-Wk LOW ( 0.00 ) %
% from 200-Day MA ( 2.60 ) %
% from 50-Day MA ( 3.68 )
Price % Change (52-Wk) 279.17 %
Trading Volume - Today
Trading Volume - Average 18,004
Trading Volume Vs. Avg. %
Total Shares - Float 16,390,000
Total Shares - Outstanding
SI Record Date 2006-Oct
Thank your market makers for that action today...
and dyna..you are correct..last trade 13,000 @4.532... roughly 20,000 in the last few minutes
last trade.....anyone catch that one..
spread was 4.47 bid 4.54 ask...the volume was 72,100 and the last trade had been at 4.47...just after the bell, 20,000 shares trade at just under the ask of 4.54....close at 4.532 with 92,100 traded...
nice work by the mm's....
That's it.....
No more spooning.....
Sheriff...
Are you awake yet...? It's time to get up....come on ....wake up.....don't make me climb in there and spoon you...
Sheriff..
I hope he makes 20 million...
My kind of humor!!...LOL
Hey numb..how's it going..
I was at the mall yesterday and I went to Pump World..the cashier told me that Torvec was coming out with a 800 HP pump that weighs 6 lbs...she said you can make it move just by looking at it....how are you guys making out with yours...?
I am not sure what you are referring to..are you responding to my post??
I think you are referring to commonsense guys post but responding to me...
Hakuna Mattata....
You're kidding right..
You're worried that Torvec could decide to issue 100 million shares and give them to the BOD for a job well done when currently their is 30 million in circulation....
From one of your previous posts you indicated that Torvec's tech doesn't work...now your worried about wether the G's and the BOD have the best interest of the investors at hand...
You guys all thought I had a vivid imagination...
"I worry about majority shareholders planning something that will significally reduce possible share price."
I'm sure that their goal is to significantly reduce share price.....
A few points to consider...
The company appears to making these manuevers for a reason...what that is , we don't know yet...the signals appear to be positive though...
It is common for companies to have far more shares authorized than might ever be needed. In Torvec's case, who knows for sure how many shares wil be "needed". The fact that events could occur that would require a stock split is a very positive thing that causes zero dilution to existing share holders. Stock splits typically occur when a stock has reached high price points that make it less "liquid" inthe market...splitting brings the price back to more active levels of trading and is a sign of strength...agin ..there is no "dilution" ....if you have 1000 shares worth 100 each and a 2 for 1 split gives you 2000 shares worth 50 each...its the same..one hopes that through continued positive earnings etc, that price per share continues to grow back toward the pre-split levels providing even greater returns for investors...
In the case of selling more shares in an IPO to the public and or institutional investors, that does dilute existing shareholders but it might be done at a time when the company has alot of positive momentum and growing as a result of deals cut that are maturing..the growth could require capital...proceeds from the sale of those IPO shares go directly into the company's treasury...who knows if and when that would be required and at what level and size of offering. The fact that it's being addressed now seems to me to be another indicator that there some things happening that lend themselves to the comapny's planning ahead...one more point about an IPO which raises capital - I dont remember the numbers exactly but Torvec has raised something like 18 or 19 million to date through sale of it's stock and paying for services with stock, each of which has caused some dilution to fund the last several years of it's existance...if you want talk about dilution, if Torvec had succumbed to raising money through investment bankers several years ago, they would of had to give up 75% of the company to get 5 or 6 million bucks and most liklely done it with a death spiral in the agreement which means Torvec might not be here today...I commend the G's for not going that route and having the perserverance to get the company to this ppoint with frankly way less dilution than I would have dreamed..
Sometimes people are looking at the wrong end of the horse when they look at dilution and not the reasons behind it...