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Unfortunately, those rules depict return of capital. Not earned capital but invested capital.
I don't think this "breaking" news holds water.
Wish it did, but sorry.
Confiscation is ongoing; damages are ongoing; self dealing is ongoing.
The owner at the time would be entitled to damages if this action prevailed. As would owners from then forward if the action were judged unlawful. That is the key thing.
Some judge has to allow the actions to be tested, until then, while certainly, its wrong its not been "ruled" unlawful, but just because its not been proven unlawful, because no judge has yet had the moxie to allow the case to be heard.
So, yes standing is there, if you can get your day in court which the judges are to wilted to allow, thus far.
The takings are ongoing, the action has continued, its the damages that would be muted.
He/she would have you believe that if you bought a home with a vagrant living in it; that you couldn't later force the vagrant to leave because they occupied it at the time you bought it.
The argument holds no water.
Right to sue (standing) is one thing. The ability to win is another. In the above question, the vagrant could be held liable for the first owners losses upon sale, but not owing to the second, except when he is forced to leave the property would become more valuable. But, it doesn't change the situation.
Here, the fact they are continuing an act of confiscation is as much the problem as the initial confiscation. While sure, the injuries occurred to the parties holding at the time of the conservatorship (confiscation), and the NWS, but everyday standing enures to the owners of the stock that are in permanent "time-out". So, while injuries would be due those at the time who owned it; doesn't change that today in confiscation damages didn't occur.
People have continued to misunderstand how this works. We've had this conversation over and over. Shareholder rights transfer...standing to sue does not. Because standing to sue does not transfer, noone who bought after the NWS can bring a suit to recover any damages for the implementation of the NWS. Their only hope to recover is thru an increase in the PPS.
You can call this statement wrong all you want...it's not.
This comment is a load of horse manure. Fact is rights follow the obligation / ownership interest. Shareholder rights are such unless bargained for / removed (which they have not) and follow - plain as day - clear as crystal.
If you can't sue, how else can you enforce your rights? Walk up to the window and ask? Pretty please??
I did not vote for him. Wonder who did
Christopher Herbert Elected to Freddie Mac Board of Directors
Gov't doesn't own any shares to sell.
Rosner is no friend of the common man.
Fact is Fannie and Freddie have already provided 100-200B to all of the above.
The warrants are garbage. They excercise them and the lawsuits will be ripe for a takings claim. So, they never will. They also have to resolve all the lawsuits before recapping anything. Absolute best way is to come to a settlement on one of the Class Actions and resolve all the claims with one brush of the hand.
The only other way is bankruptcy which would also prove horrible because then a judge would be incharge and the govern'ment wouldnt want that as there would be too much at risk. The risk of the unknown. All the delays are and have been necessary to stage the scene. Put the actors in place and get things or people to see it their way. At some point that ends and at some point the gov;t has to come clean or bury it.
So, taking another 150B from the warrants will likely never happen. Just not feasible. Unless Rosner is for the greedy government its far better to recap - and the gov't reaping billions from taxes. And the waterfall of the spending that will occur as a oversized stimulus package that will work its way thru out all the state tax rolls and large spending by taxpayers, spending money in an economic boom.
However, true apparently, no one of any importance cares.
So very sad
The GSE's won't need a draw, they'll just need their money back.
Not the same thing.
You did read this right?
“The budget proposes increasing the guarantee fees charged by Fannie and Freddie by 0.1 percentage point, a move the administration forecasts would raise nearly $25.7 billion over a decade"
So over the next 10 YEARS
Meaning Fannie and Freddie AREN'T going away.
So, the question is in what form do they exist?
JC - Hope you are right. Fear you likely are not.
1. what in the world makes you believe that after 10 years congress / treasury is going to respect the property rights of shareholders, now?
They've fought every decent American thing and done so with pith and vinegar. Because the arguments have been so obvious to any educated person, they are hard to convey in the courts and because of legal footwork - and mis speak, fhfa/treasury have been able to play keep away.
What changes this?
2. to 5. I largely concur with eventually, when something occurs to shake the tree.
6. Your $250 per share is very idealistic. Fair value in my view is less - likely $125+; but
7. Even that - no way it all occurs before May 17.
Like I wrote - 100% wish it does but hope is a horrible investment strategy.
The takings claim would be ripe and there would be plentiful lawsuits filed.
Also, the g'vt has to resolve the existing lawsuits.
They'll need a straight royal flush to win on each hand or a big pile of money.
My guesstimate of fair value had been around $125 prior to the corporate tax rate change. Post change adjusted fair value is around $155.
So true.
Old lamby could have just as easily reasoned and concluded differently if he'd had the spine to do it.
But hey "all means all, except when apparently it doesn't"
He is a bad person that which has no inclination for the truth and doing the right thing.
The true story is Taxpayers (shareholders) -v Government (Greedy bought and paid front men for TBTF Banks).
I've not read all the way through it, but likely, what it means is a "perpetual" target Net Worth of $3B. Thus at any measurement date (quarterly) they amount of Net Worth (Equity) above $3B is stolen by treasury as additional loot.
At this point we can really only hope.
Pat,
You've been saying the same thing for quite some time.
Two things to point out.
1st. the P/E ratio you quote is oversized for a financial services company that will be plain vanilla.
2nd. the earnings of $11Bil in earnings is in today's pre-tax cut world. If the corporate tax proposed goes into effect the post tax income will not be $11B but closer to 14B.
So, 14B/1.16B shares = $12.06 x a pe of around 12 = about $144.
Sure, i'd love a pe of 17, but its not sustainable. JMHO.
I do concur the warrants are garbage. And that some economic settlement will be needed to resolve all of the claims.
What that will be is anyone's guess. But it will have to be significant enough to "warrant" the various taking law suits that will pour in otherwise.
The problem with that is the $100Billion taking problem that results in. If the government steals $100billion in this fashion, the lawsuits will be plentiful. And eventually, they will lose and owe back even more then they will have stolen.
It perpetuates the problem and does not resolve it. Only a settlement of the class action lawsuits get them out. Only other viable option is to stall the clock for another 30-40 years and all of us harmed shareholders are dead or too old to remember. (Which seems like what they are intent on doing).
Exercising those poison warrants is not a feasible option. Its like having a weapon you can not use, because the self destruction is too much, like an uncontrolled boomerang.
Ya know. All they'd have to do to create competition is to do what they did with AT&T back in the 80;s or so. And split them up.
Capitalize them first, by undoing all the thievery. And then spin them out. Maybe dividing Freddie in two and Fannie into three entities. That would make 5 near equal size companies, shareholder owned. Then, allow the 5 to compete across the US.
Greedy government has got to get out of the way or all their shenanigans are going to lead into perpetuity the same way.
To me as I see it, government is not working for the tax payer, heck I AM a taxpayer, not many of us (only about 45% of USA adult population or so); and they;ve not done 1 thing for me. So, get out of the way!
Government miss information, manipulation and greed has got to stop.
Actually, per the warrant's only the Treasury may exercise them.
Thus, they can not be sold as is and if its illegal for them to own the shares then, effectively, they are dead.
Actually, the payments, are categorized as Dividends, although everyone knows its "interest". Dividends have to be authorized by the board of directors before they become payable ie. they have to be declared.
All that has to happen is for the board to not declare a dividend and then the payments are not due.
This is a fact.
Read the "third amendment" it clearly states this.
Its really that simple.
Keep in mind that technically, perhaps, a taking hasn't occurred until the warrants are exercised. That act would then trigger the statue to challenge. Until then, all they are is a threat of a taking.
My firm belief is that the warrants will expire worthless or before hand be voided by the judiciary.
There is no provable economic reason for their existence, unless those interpreting them fail to read and listen to the truth. Which as judges often do, they will.
This pretty much sux
Boom
Your opinions make it not law.
To sue you and prevail (normally) in any situation you have to have standing. You have to have bone in the fight. Be harmed.
Remember fhfa as conservator is not government its some alien hybrid being. fhfa, as conservator, can not be allowed to act without regard to regulations, or even laws. Your concept of standing, does not apply to fhfa, as conservator. Instead, there has to be some consequence that is / has occurred that is in contradiction to regs/laws. That, transfers with title. In this sense their actions occurred and are ongoing. These entities were kidnapped and are still in bondage. What is the crime the initial event or the ongoing occurrence? Or both? Here the ongoing occcurence of being held captive and subjected to the thievery occurs daily.
So, yes we got it yes we do, for want of several reasons that these, idiot judges just need to get their heads out of the sand long enough to see.
Will they? Is it possible or are they just corrupt?
Your concept of standing is off base. Ability to sue does transfer with the sale.
For example in lending arrangements, if a note is defaulted and the creditor sells the a defaulted note at less than note amount, the purchaser is not precluded from suing for the full amount, merely because the event of default has devalued the debtors likelihood of paying anymore than this net sweep business. The net worth sweep can be waived / changed by the fhfa at any time and like the making of this bogus third amendments BS could be altered at any time.
What you have here is that the net worth swipe is only done, if "declared" by the entity. If its not declared its not owed. Since the net worth concept is cummulative, if not declared and paid in one quarter it could be the next. Alternatively, it could be suspended or replaced.
Shareholders should absolutely, have the ability to sue to adhere to the contractual promises embodied in the commons share rights.
What the governement continues to do is a total farce.
These entities will likely not survive, if the warrants are exercised. Because the lawsuits will be huge. The damages to the existing shareholders will require F and F to issue billions of shares to the shareholders to effectively neuter the government's taking or come up with 300 Billion dollars cold hard cash.
There is no economic model that survives the challenges that includes the exercise of the warrants. Thus, the warrants are dead.
Rec.. you are arguing my opinion and belief; as stated i believe you are incorrect.
In my opinion, the conservator, as manager of the entities owe a duty to them.
Separately, the concept is very easy to understand. In fact in law the concept is or has been widely expanded to put people responsible for others in situations when they didn't otherwise have a responsibility except by enactment of law.
It would be out of the norm in my opinion to believe any other way.
Sorry, again, just my honest opinion.
My belief is you are incorrect.
Interestingly,
If this issue has already been settled; then why hasn't it been applied?
Yes,
The conservator should be conserving and in the best interest of the GSE's.
This is a matter of putting them first and doing in their best interest, not the interest of Treasury, not the interst of the presidnet of even of some rouge internet blogger.
So, yes, without question there is a duty.
Why is it so hard for them just to tell the truth without so much wordy run on at the mouth sentences that ultimately say little to nothing.
The truth and in 10 words or less please.
Telling the truth would be so uplifting for these cowards that are hiding behind lies and dishonesty.
come on mel be honest and stop being that way.
GREEDY GOVERNMENT
Nice to have the attention but, its obvious government still wants all the goodies for themselves.
Taxpayers can generate an estimated $100 billion in "additional cash profits" if Treasury sells the 79.9 percent of the companies the government seized during the housing collapse, the RNC wrote. [url][/url][tag]insert-text-here[/tag]
They ought to be ashamed of themselves.
But, maybe they are to drunk on power and money.
Take both of them away and they are just shareholders.
Yes,
We'd be paid off.
At a more reasonable 5% rate - the gov't would owe us money.
Back out the unnecessary borrowings due to the corruption of government and they'd owe us lots of money.
Its been a total sham
lol
Why not with the solar eclipse?
Or with the equinox
or with the start of football season?
Corker is less than a full cup.
He is a radical himself and should take his "millions" and retire.
His kind we don't need.
Wish him the best. At home on the ranch.
Just not in DC and not representing me.
The big story is the Fraud perpetrated by those within government. They conspired and their employer profited from it. By any reasonable standard, there are many that should be wearing orange jump suits today.
Including the co-conspirators with PW and DT
This is more like securities fraud.
REstate it at a fair and reasonable interest rate of 3% or even 5% and Treasury owes FandF Billions. With a fully paid off loan.
This is comical.