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We may be out of luck but I still believe the individual/group is either in the money or still pursuing the money. Rule 582 is rather complex with quite a few ifs, ands or buts. There are just as many interpretations on how it can/will be used. The group could have found a loop around using old equity that we were unaware of. Do I have any expectations, no I don't. However I lose nothing by holding my shares and being optimistic with a heavy dose of reality. There are hearings still going on and the resolution with the FDIC still to be completed. After that, could the question regarding the NOLS come back around? There were hundreds of millions in NOLS,somebody should want them if they are still to be had. I lose nothing by holding.
I still believe there was/is a Mr. Big, whether that is an individual or group. There were many signs pointing to a person or group that was pulling all the strings. The premise being that they needed old equity if they wanted to recover the NOLS. They may have lost that battle or it possibly wasn't there intention after all. In the filings, many of the big wigs (Glickman) held on to substantial shares while others were out there buying large blocks. Had to be a reason, we will never know the full story.
I can't speak for anyone else, but "waiting" is what I have left. I am not looking to "devine" intervention, but if the good Lord sees fit to intervene then I will be accepting of his favors.
To all: Imatt believes that it will turn around period, there is no need to attempt to discredit why he believes or how he chooses to invest. I hold the same values as Imatt and I still hold my shares. I have no clue as to whether CORSQ will turn around, this was a roll of the dice and I am still willing to wait it out. As to whether others may be swayed to investing into a bankrupt, delisted bank; if they can't figure out this is the longest of long shots then I suspect they have bigger problems to deal with. I still check in and read weekly as I have for a couple of years now. I will stick around until the end is official and the corpse is cold. Friendly banter and cordial disagreements, no problem. Attacking belief systems, unnecessary.
Playing devils advocate, could this be for the newly formed Corus Financial Corp?
Still, it brings up some interesting possible scenarios.
There currently is an active discussion board, it is appropriately titled the Iraqi Dinar Discussion Board and can be found under IQD. Good suggestion, I did not know it was there.
So, does that mean that 382 no longer applies after 36 months? That could be good or bad. Good in the fact that an ownership change can now occur thus speeding up the process. Bad in the fact that an ownership change could cancel our holdings because we may no longer be needed.
What's that old saying...."patience is a virgin" or is it virtue?
See post 14193. Frank69 was sending out a whirlwind of BMC docs. This doc speaks to both cancellation or the other alternative of simply cessation of trading the shares. Both Mikie and Imatt interpreted at the time that the document angled towards cessation. That appears to be the case.
Like you said, delisted or suspended is OK. They are certainly not cancelled. They still show in my account, just at zero value.
There is a five year carry back for NOLs. Does this mean that the clock is ticking to use them OR you can only carry back 5 years worth to be used at any time?
Frank,
great question. So, does CORSQ no longer exist and we are now part of a private corporation?
Did I miss something, are the coals still warm?
The message is the same as the other versions or communications regarding the POL/POR. In fact I believe Eric Morath wrote another article stating the same six months ago. Remember, he is simply regurgitating what the POR has stated for months, nothing new. Like JV stated, where has the current version succeeded in the past with 100% NOLs. This is a story without a ending at this point....time will tell.
They billed $4 K to prepare the fee application. What a racket, they asked to be paid $19 K and 25% is simply subimitting the bill.
ST formed out of Starwood either just before or right after bankruptcy. They employ approximately 50 staff in their Chicago office, of which 25 - 30 are former Corus employees. About a year ago, ST was one of the groups in focus of the board research. I believe (if memory serves) one of the ST VP's is a former VP of Corus.
Big Connection. They already employed those who knew the true value of the projects before buying them from FDIC. Is there also hidden assets? If there are, ST would have that info as well.
II, you think it will go that far? Perhaps Gettleman will have some interesting info on 8-25.
I have zero freebies, I can wait as well. My money is doing just as well here as anywhere else.
However, it is time to put more money into the 529 for the kids. As Tony Curtis said in the movie "Operation Petticote", In confusion there is profit.
Chiron, that is the interesting angle of the whole story. It should be done. It should have been done two years ago. Little bits keep being uncovered to give support to the original premise.
HT- thanx for the additional DD, you continue to connect the dots. Hopefully it will make a nice picture when complete.
Chiron,
I am not surprised by the prediction as much as I am by you writing it. Do I note optimism?
I happen to agree that this drop is just volatility and not long term. The market will come back up in the near future and top 13,000.
GLTY
Mick,
No surprise on the Barchart. This is a ch. 11 bank with a reorg plan that cancels equity. The theory of the board is that the reorg plan will change in the final chapter of this story. The theory, to sum up briefly, is that in order to use NOLS to their fullest extent equity must be preserved.
Is that a sell, buy or undetermined? I don't know if a Form T designates anything other than an after hours transaction.
That is still a substantial hit to the NOLS. Not a math wizzard, but this path would cost Tricadia and creditors millions. However, it may be a much easier path to negotiate.
"To the extent Section 382(l)(5) applies to the transfer of stock to the old creditors, the NOL carryovers of the debtor corporation must still be reduced by 50% of the cancellation of debt (“COD”) income not taken into account by virtue of the stock for debt exception of Code Section 108(e)(10)(B). Under Section 382(l)(5)(B), the NOL carryovers must also be reduced by the amount of interest accrued with respect to such canceled debt during the three taxable years prior to the taxable year of the ownership change and during the taxable year of the ownership change (up to the change date."
David,
Like you said, probably a non-issue. It struck me funny that he even mentioned it. No matter.
Have a great day all.
Selling based upon the published POR should not raise any ethical/legal issues. However, buying because of insider information (especially if you are an executive) would probably run afoul of legal/ethical behavior.
Randy owns 40K shares. Knowing that common are canceled, why would he not sell? 40K shares is only around $1,500 but why waste it. Would there be a legal reason preventing him?
He was surprisingly forthcoming, he mustn't be a lawyer.
thank you sir.
It is hot is TX today. I need an indoor activity.
Lookin' for an education here. What does NOBO list mean and is that good, bad, neither?
thanks Ten. I don't have PM capabilities. Still a lot of if's, ands or buts in 382.
Mikie.....B2.....HT.....any other thoughts or considerations
From B2's post on May 3, 2011. The NOLS number given in the article is the whole enchilada. If B2, HT and others are correct in their interpretation of rule 382 then Tricadia must save equity to achieve $500 MM in NOLS. This would still be a very rare incident and the creditors come out with $.40 plus cents on the dollar.
"Can NOLS be claimed without old equity? Yes, creditors could cancel old equity and issue new stock. However, they are only eligible for a fraction of the NOLS. Sielgman was very misleading on that issue. See HT's post on rule 382 ( maybe HT could repost it ). If Tricadia were to pick up a majority of the old commons and even pay for them they could obtain 100% of value. It is clear and in black and white regarding rule 382. Old shares are the way to go, hence Mr. Big. He will sell most and keep some. Do not be fooled. Remember over the course of time we have had several bashers who completely trashed this stock on both boards. I don't mean simple doubts or questions like ii or Hestheman, but harsh and dire warnings. NOLS is what it is all about. Currently, Tricadia is trying to gain control of this BK. For what purpose?"
One thing the article does not state is how Tricadia plans on recovering the NOLS. Yes, they plan on suing the FDIC to determine who has the rights to the NOLS but don't they still need equity to recover them?
Anyone want to email Morath to see if there is more to the story?
After its liquidation proposal was rejected, Corus Bankshares Inc., an Illinois holding company that had its primary asset—its bank—stripped from it nearly two years ago, reversed course and is poised to pitch creditors on a plan to emerge from bankruptcy.
At hearing set for July 28 at the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Chicago, the company will ask a judge to allow it to send the plan it crafted alongside hedge-fund manager Tricadia Capital Management to creditors for a vote.
If successful, the plan would mark a rare emergence from Chapter 11 among the recent wave of bank-holding companies that entered bankruptcy protection after their banks were seized.
Under the proposal, unsecured creditors, primarily Tricadia and other holders of securities related to collateralized-debt obligations, or CDOs, owed a collective $415.6 million, would receive either stock in the reorganized company or a cash payment.
More
FDIC Seeks to Block Corus Bank Parent From Tapping Refunds 8/18/2010 Corus Sets Capital Pacts 2/19/2009 Corus Bankshares Settles U.S. Lawsuit Alleging Fraud on Student Lending 4/10/00 The reorganized company would pursue a $257 million lawsuit against Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., the agency that became Corus Bank NA's receiver in September 2009. If that lawsuit is successful, it would provide funds for Corus Bankshares to restart its dormant real-estate-investment operations, court papers said.
In addition to managing Corus Bank, primarily a commercial-real-estate lender hit hard by defaults in Florida and elsewhere, Corus Bankshares also invested directly in certain real-estate projects, court papers said.
With funds from the lawsuit, the reorganized company could return to investing in real-estate-related equity and debt and target office, multi-unit housing, industrial, retail and possibly hotel properties in the U.S., court papers said.
The lawsuit centers on whether the holding company or the FDIC should have the rights to millions of dollars in tax refunds derived from the losses tracked to the bank's failure and seizure that can be counted against years of taxes paid when the lender profited from the building boom.
An FDIC spokesman declined to comment Wednesday.
The company says its plan has support from the majority of creditors, including five major claim holders that voted last year to reject the liquidation plan. The proposed restructuring plan increases the minimum expected recovery for unsecured creditors to 6.2% from the 4.5% they would have received under the liquidation plan.
The larger payoff would come if Corus Bankshares succeeds in its lawsuit. That would result in unsecured creditors recovering up to 53.3 cents on the dollar, court papers said. That would be a significant recovery for holders of CDO-tied securities that often receive little when bank-holding companies unwind in bankruptcy.
The reorganization plan came together in the first half of this year after Tricadia funds purchased Corus Bankshares' securities with a face value of $109 million. The move was significant because it gave the holding company a known stakeholder with which to negotiate.
Bank holding companies in Chapter 11 have struggled with how to address CDOs on their books because the ultimate holders of that debt are typically disparate and sometimes impossible to even identify.
The Corus Bankshares CDOs that Tricadia bought into are collections of so-called trust-preferred securities, which are investment instruments issued by bank-created trusts. Such securities were frequently issued in the 1990s as a way for bank-holding companies to raise capital on the cheap and without diluting their shareholders. Now those securities are often associated with bank failures.
As the financial crisis took hold, trust-preferred securities often stood in the way of outside investors offering capital to rescue banks because securities holders had to be paid in full before the bank could count any additional capital.
As a result, federal and state regulators seized undercapitalized banks, leaving their holding companies to frequently liquidate.
But under Corus Bankshares' plan, the company would reorganize, and trust-preferred securities holders could see a significant recovery.
Plan architect Tricadia, a New York fund manager founded by Arif Inayat and Michael Barnes, gained a level of notoriety during the financial crisis as a firm that did well by betting against the housing market. According to a Wall Street Journal article published last year, the firm told investors in one of its funds that it saw "serious cracks" in the housing market as early as January 2007.
The firm's bearish position, however, was partially offset by another one of its units, which was responsible for selecting mortgage assets that were packaged into CDOs for investment banks that sought to attract investors who had a positive outlook on the housing market.
Tricaidia has said that it did warn those investors that other funds managed by Tricadia may be bearish on the housing market and said the firm didn't make negative bets on the same assets packaged into the CDOs.
A Tricaidia representative declined to comment when reached Wednesday.
Write to Eric Morath at eric.morath@dowjones.com
I understand. I am interested however at what the rate of tax deduction a company can make as opposed to an individual. A for instance (not saying this is happening), ST Res bought a large multitude of shares in 09. Can they write the loss off immediately or say a couple of years? If an individual bought the shares, what is their write off limitation per year? I thought that it was rather low. I am trying to lay the ground work in my own mind whether the buying in 09 was a corporate or individual entity. If an individual and the latest POR stands, where is the fight?
I may not be making sense or it simply may not matter.
Tax write off on companies and cease to exist are capped aren't they? I suspect we have some tax experts on the board who are well versed and can correct or add to that belief. I thought that you could only write off $3-5 K a year, therefore someone buying all the equity in 09 for less than a 50/50 chance on return certainly seems unwise, the recovery time would be rediculous. If you lose, you lose.
To all:
Happy Birthday to the US and to Canada, enjoy your celebrations. The focus of the weekend hopefully will to be thankful that we do not live in Greece with their austerity measures, or North Africa because of civil war or even Venezuela who is under the thumb of a dictator. In North America we are free to disagree with not only our opinions but how we choose to invest.
II, you are a mod and you became one because of some significant contributions. Your choice to limit your exposure is just that, your choice. Please continue to contribute to a healthy debate, as you stated, you still hold a stake here. I have learned a great deal from Mikie, B2, errett and Ten to name a few. JV44, you make me laugh. (I love the TV and movie references)
My thoughts fwiw. I get a little sentimental around patriotic holidays. I plan on watching a few John Wayne movies this weekend to set things in motion.
Small potatoes is right. It doesn't make sense for Tricadia to be involved, this is not worth their time unless there is a substantial end game. Where's Paul Harvey when you need him, I'm ready for "The rest of the story".
I don't take it the wrong way, this has been(and continues to be) a great ride. I have learned a great deal over the past 2 years.
I don't watch the price per say, but I do pay closer attention when substantial news is reported. I regularly watch the volume. Big pps moves in either direction mean nothing if on no volume, imo. I'm still a newbie, that may explain alot.
Agreed, people on this board are well versed on this being a LOTTO. However, my curiosity lies with those outside the board and of course the Mr Big scenario. I would rather win than lose, as would anyone else, so my senses get heightened when detour signs become visible.
Down 10% at the bell but so far no large moves. People held tight after the last POR, we will see what happens with this one shortly.
So for all practical purposes, we are no different than before. We are cancelled but there is an out clause that allows for any changes at any time before the confirmation.
I must admit to a level of frustration, we seem to get close to a resolution and then it circles back around to our current starting point.
In your opinion, is this POR any more damning than the last?