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Many are up to their eye balls in alligators...they have NO other recourse but to try to frustrate and discredit others from questioning things that just does not seem right about ERBB...
There is a lot of uncertainty...in many different areas, nwsun...which have all been discussed over and over on this forum.
There is the controversy, with two different camps of thought, both sides providing impelling documentation as to why it should be legalized...and the other showing decades of research chronicling the harmful side effects of its use... You know...I had a lot of great times in the 70's - I JUST CANNOT REMEMBER ANY OF THEM. LOL
Add to this compliance regulations, or lack of them, by the side that does not want it, and the banking industry being held hostage by the politicians and lobbyists, and the fact that it still is a crime in most states to use it, and one can see some of the "whys"...
Someone stated the truth...that many of us bought in to make some money...got trapped by the MMs with their fast downward moving PPS, got greedy and did not sell when the profit was there...and a host of other reasons...
I do believe that many investors have averaged down, always with an outside hope that the PPS will return to the grandeur of yesteryear and turn a profit...but, probably most are just wanting it to spike enough to either break even, or make a little profit to justify hanging around in something that has not shown any signs of moving...for many obvious reasons, such as 4B OS, failed partnerships, missed deadlines, and no communication...other than the minions sent out to calm the storm...
Go back and check the history of this whole company, and ask yourself "if I knew then, what I know now, would I still invest?"
Average down, hope there will not be a R/S, which is the scary thing, as these guys have not always been honest with their words...or their actions... Hang in there...and pray that that light at the end of the tunnel is NOT a runaway locomotive... LOL "Beware of false prophets, you shall know them by their fruit." AJMHO, of course, FWIW
Looks like this could be the push downward to break lower support...as the MMs are stacking the ask... Does anyone know how low this thing will go before a support level is found? JMHO
I would think that the only way AG is going to increase the PPS, aside from showing some great revenues, would be to buy back and retire some shares...
Too bad ERBB does not have $8M dollars now, as they could buy back 1 billion shares and retire them... Now, that would be something that would jumpstart the PPS in the right direction... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
It appears on level 2 that ERTF's huge number on the ask wants the PPS to go lower...challenging the AX NITE, who has dug in support at .008... Who will win???
Also, EDXC shareholders do not appear to be so happy with this deal, as the number of posts are small. Some do not believe that this deal is in the best interest of EDXC... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
Well, JSTIC, all any of us can ascertain is to take the big words...one by one, to try to understand the "WHY" of this deal, and who benefits the most...especially if AG, as usual, is quick on words...and slow on explanation...
Companies Announce Technology Cooperation and Joint Development of Compliance
Together, they will co-develop and license an Integration and Connectivity Interface Platform to foster required industry standardization. This appears to be good for each company, and the industry in whole.
The on-going collaboration also enables the companies to share business relationships leading directly to mutual revenue potential for both organizations. This might not be so good for either company, as if both companies are vying for a certain business relationship, they could become cutthroat and undermine the other company to get the business deal. ERBB and EDXC are still in competition with each other, and this agreement can be a hindrance when it comes to sharing business relationships...especially where money is concerned.
Some questions to answer when a company might be interested in deciding between which company of the two to do business with might be... Previous history as a company; previous partnerships; whether those partnerships have been fruitful; credibility of management; reporting company such as EDXC vs non-reporting of ERBB; OS and float structure of ERBB, which is probably way out of line with the EDXC, I would think...which could open up the door for a future R/S by ERBB, as it certainly has to get its bloated share structure in order;
The scope of the collaboration comprises the establishment of a unified compliance standard for inventory control and verified vending for general adoption by regulators and local jurisdictions in multiple legal markets. Standardization of industry guidelines to fall in line with governmental regulations is a good thing and could speed up acceptance by many states with their various stipulations.
The agreement also calls for collaboration on technology connectivity with the integration of American Green’s “Verify Pay” POS (Point of Sale) system with Endexx’s proprietary M3Hub inventory control, tracking, and process management system and for the joint development, marketing, distribution and licensing of the M3Hub universal interface connectivity platform for all third party “Seed-to-Sale”, POS systems and vending solutions. This can be good...as are they making a better mouse trap, with better legal protection, locking up more of the proprietary market...OR, is one company completely removing any potential for later infringement patent rights with the creation of this deal?
Todd Davis, Endexx CEO stated, “While working with the Marijuana Enforcement Division in Colorado and other jurisdictions, it has become apparent that an all-inclusive sys-tem unifying procedures, protocols, policy, rules and regulations platform is mandatory for companies in the legal Marijuana Industry to operate within a standardized compliant infrastructure.” Are both companies locking up potential market share, or is one company gaining a decided advantage over the other? Which business model aligns itself better with working together with the other?
And, what does this do to each companies patent rights? Or, does it even matter any more, as they surely have agreed that neither company would sue the other, I would think. If so, then, ERBB might be the big loser, especially if they had the stronger proprietary claims to rights.
Stephen Shearin, American Green president added, “Establishing standard operating procedures and guidelines that government entities can customize and adopt to provide safety and security while protecting the public's interest will advance technology integration initiatives and invite “best practices” to the industry. Collaborating with the En-dexx team, who already have a successful background in a similar arena, enables our two companies to take a giant leap toward our mutual goal of advancing ‘smart automation’ in the world.” Does this mean that they feel that by combining their patent rights and claims they are forming a merger, technologically wise, that will strengthen each companies licensing rights, therefore, assuring that companies wanting their technology will have to come to each company?
The bottom line is revenue potential. How is ERBB going to make money off this relationship...especially if they have just signed away proprietary rights, which represented a strong hand for them? It would be interesting to know what kind of arrangement has been made as far as patent rights that was the strongest asset that ERBB has held over the entire industry...and into other fields such as tobacco and alcohol for the future.... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
From reading the latest ihub message board for EDXC they are much more ecstatic about this deal being a "savior" for their company, than what it appears to be from the ERBB board, who have more questions about the deal.
It is believed that EDXC was infringing upon the ERBB/Tomassi patent. If this is the case, then, why would ERBB do a deal with a competitor from which they could, down the road, receive compensation from patent infringement?
Also, if the patent infringement scenario is true, then, why would ERBB jump into bed with someone that would conceivably have been paying them lots of money for infringement...and an eventual licensing agreement?
Once again, it appears, that ERBB has made a deal that loses money, and is not in the best interest of its shareholders. AJMHO, of course, FWIW
One wonders WHO initiated this deal...who had the most to gain from this collaboration...whose assets, such as patents, carries the most weight?
Who is the loser in this deal, as the CEO with the most to gain probably is the one that initiated this deal...I would think.
How can getting into bed with the enemy/competitor be good for ERBB?
"Give NO place to the enemy." "Do not be deceived, bad company corrupts good character." AJMHO, of course, FWIW
140 million pets in this country...
Once AG "secures" the patent rights...THEY OWN THEM...in accordance with the specific terms of the contractual agreement with Tomassi...
The intellectual property (IP) rights of the Tomassi patent have been "assigned", as the USPTO calls it, to ERBB. For example, the patent rights can be performance based, meaning that certain guidelines must be met, or the contract will become null and void.
The "assigned" patent rights can be "exclusive", with NO competitors, it can be limited, with other companies being given the rights by Tomassi, and Tomassi surely has kept some rights for himself, as a back up in case AG fails and cannot perform;
So, unless someone can read the specific terms and agreements between AG and Robert Tomassi, one can only speculate what those specific terms are and/or how broad...or narrow their granted rights are...
Legally, according to the USPTO, Robert Tomassi will always be the patentee, and the name can never change on the patent application...
Hope this helps some... AJMHO, of course, FWIW...based on my limited knowledge of patents...
AG, and specifically, SS has a very poor track record when it comes to choosing legitimate partners, that have a chance of succeeding, and putting together deals without stepping in to some serious poo poo...
My interpretation is that the first part speaks of licensing rights given, contractually, to ERBB.
I would interpret the second part to mean that he probably should have agreed upon rights between himself and AG, granting AG certain market areas, while also allowing himself to compete, possibly in the same areas, or certainly in areas that maybe AG did not express an interest in when the initial agreement was signed...
I am NO expert, but that comment that SS made about NO infringement is way out there. For example, proprietary rights are proprietary rights, and whether one closes something, and another opens the same thing should have NO bearing. Sounds like that one just came off the cuff from SS, IMO.
It patent terminology, that should not be enough of a change to allow it to be good, as the examiner would probably look at the patent and those two words and say that "anyone with reasonable knowledge in the field could understand that the same object that closes something, will also open it"...therefore, rendering the claim null and void... AJMHO
I tried to find some of my patent information that I had previously posted, but could not find it. Some of it was very good, compared patent claims between MDBX and ERBB, and the other company EDXC and their patent with the Tomassi patent as well. The Tomassi patent won hands down, IMHO...
I hope this helps... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
Inquiring minds want to know about the patent rights...this is all that I have...would this email from Robert Tomassi provide some clues to your questions about the AG's ownership of the Tomassi Patents???...
I would not think that AG has to provide a document showing whether they have purchased the patent rights, outright, had the patent rights assigned to them, or whether they were just given exclusive distribution rights from Robert Tomassi...maybe with performance incentives attached, etc.
I do not believe that any owner of a patent, if he is in his right mind, and without great upfront money, or other numbers showing the great potential of a company, would ever just sign over their patents.
One might interpret this email to mean that Robert Tomassi kept certain distribution rights for himself, especially the Tobacco Industry, while, possibly signing over some licensing rights to ERBB...
If AG has not produced specific documents, then, one has to take management for their word... LOL AJMHO, of course, FWIW
From ROBERT TOMASSI
To --------------
Date Dec 1, 2014
Hello ----------,
Sorry for the late reply.
First I am not bored on you talking about your patent. It is always interesting to hear different patents and how they came about the idea. Getting a patent on technology is not an easy thing to get today. You have to be very creative and intelligent.
Thank you on your input on my patents. I do look forward to seeing it out there for secured distribution to various products. Maybe one could assume that this part relates to ERBB.
Having the first non-tobacco herbal should make you lots of money especially with the herbal elements that you can put out there with your product.
Have you ever thought of approaching RJ Reynolds or Phillip Morris on your product. I certainly will try to for mine in getting their cigarettes back into vending machines.
Maybe one could assume that this statement might mean that, if he has granted rights to ERBB, that it might be for exclusive rights for certain areas...giving himself the rights to pursue the tobacco industry on his own.
Robert
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=111249971
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=108173839
My communication with Robert was good, and I hope to stay in contact with him, as we both have some things in common. AJMHO, of course, FWIW
That patent statement by Stephen is a bunch of crapola IMO...one wonders what that high powered patent attorney is telling him...if that statement even came from the attorney...
It sounds as Stephen does not have the stomach for a legal confrontation and probably not the money for it, as well. No need to worry about challenges now, wait until there are millions of revenues in the coffers of the infringers...
It the patent company is MDBX, IMO, they have definitely infringed and circumvented the claims of ERBB/Tomassi... As you did not specify the company, it is hard to compare patents...besides, I am not an expert in patents... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
Keep in mind the possibility that some high rollers might still have to buy back in, after having the PPS propped up long enough to disguise the selling of possibly hundreds of millions of shares.
They certainly could claim a profit, as many of them have been in since .005; they also can be sitting on the sidelines just in case that R/S all of a sudden occurs;
a third reason might be that there could be a big run coming, as we heard from someone very close to the source, etc. They also could buy back in for what could be a major bullish pump and run...at this much lower level.
We could be close to something huge happening...and it can go either way...it could be bad, or good... JMHO, of course, FWIW
nwsun...My gut tells me that ERBB is rapidly approaching an "impasse"... Either a R/S has to occur, or something dramatic such as a buy-out, or great news from the company that can turn things around, or someone infusing $25 million dollars into the company (I cannot see this happening due to the debt, very low profits, 3.9B OS and 3.3B share float.
Any number of things could have been occurring the past several months... AG probably was dumping/selling shares; CD's were being dumped; Possible large shareholder dumping, very discreet, and it has not aroused suspicion...posters have been less visible and/or vocal, as they have NO reason to post here right now, which could mean that they have liquidated their positions, probably at a profit...before the R/S that has to occur, and they are on the sidelines waiting to buy back in when the small shareholders/bag holders get burned with the possible R/S.
One major mouthpiece had mentioned back a while ago that he thought that a R/S probably would occur within the next 3-6 months... Well, guess what...that time frame has been reached... This was one of the strongest supporters of Shearin. One can draw their own conclusions.
There has been very little feedback from management, as the communication between Shearin and his "buddies" has stopped being shared with the rest of the message board...this can be a red flag, as when certain behavior is stopped, or the routine is changed, this could be cause to be concerned. There is so much more, but it is time to stop for now...
AG could have made $100 million dollars already just by selling shares in its own company... NOW, that is some kind of business return...and, they can just R/S, if they want to, and do it all over again...and, it's all legal...AJMHO, of course, FWIW
I would speculate that they have been allowed to gradually dump/sell their shares over the last few months, without raising suspicion...possibly being allowed to get out, thus avoiding a possible R/S. This is just a hunch...
They make brief cameo appearances, but nothing like before when they were PM'ing us to slap the ask to try to keep the buys up so that shares could possibly be dumped into the buys... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
NO answer IS AN ANSWER...especially with your contacting the designated customer service responder. I guess Hans is his name...
If management does not respond...they cannot lie...or, should I say "stretch the truth." They have lacked in transparency...as they go into cover mode when too many investors ask the wrong questions at the right time...
What ever happened to the man that just said "forgive me...I screwed up?" LOL JMHO, of course, FWIW
I respect knowledgeable and experienced investors like yourself and nightfalls, and several others on this board...especially with my lack of experience in so many areas...
It is hard not to listen to you, and go along with you on your positions on MMs, but I will stick to my guns on what I have seen, what I have heard from other great traders/investors, and what the Level 2 has to say...
For example, why would I want to ignore, blow off, of make a mockery of the one constant variable in the investment arena that has absolute control over the success, or failure, of my money - the MMs (Market Manipulators).
The MMs are like the quarterback on a football team - nothing can happen until they touch the ball, and the ball is snapped to them. So, the MM QB calls the plays, or gets the plays from off the field (hedge fund, other MMs, shorts, etc), initiates the plays, chooses who is to handle the ball/money besides himself, is responsible for getting the ball to the eligible offensive players, etc.
Has anyone found it interesting how ALL this Zazzz bantering back and forth has produced very little proof of where the machines are placed...there are some cell phone pics, and a few others, but a lot of controversy...and there is NO information coming from the many businesses that are supposed to have them shipped and in house...
One would think that with all the professional video being made by AG showing up online, all of a sudden, there would be something professionally done to affirm that the management is telling the truth...unless there is a confidentiality reason why there cannot be any live videos taken of actual customers purchasing products.
I will float one more thought process/theory as to why there are large numbers showing up, for months, on the bid side, and, yet, SS has stated that debenture holders were "friendly" and not selling...
If the friendlies are not selling, then, who is??? WHAT IF some of the major shareholders of ERBB, and close confidantes of SS, might be liquidating their positions, in anticipation of a R/S? It is believed that a R/S has to occur, if the company is to get the share structure back in order...even though SS states that this will not happen "at this time", I believe were his words.
These champions of peace, calm, and reassurance that ERBB is legit, for they have been to the company, met with the leaders, and share the vision of AG... I have read ALL posts daily...have any noticed how certain mouthpieces have virtually disappeared from sight, absent a few cameo appearances here and there?
My far-fetched thoughts are that if there is a R/S coming, and these major, bookoo million share holders are dumping/selling their shares, quietly, and slowly, under the radar, knowing that debenture holders will get blamed for the selling of shares, as to not alert anyone that they are selling out of their positions...at a profit for most of them...knowing that a R/S is coming... JMHO, of course, FWIW
There are several chosen ones on this board that are following Stephen so closely that they make him smile when he stops... LOL
Why do others, such as myself, not get email alerts, as I signed up? Also, why does Robert Tomassi get my email address from Stephen Shearin and send me an email?... Just a small shareholder such as I am... JMHO, of course, FWIW
Maybe someone paid $7K to put the kiss of death on ERBB, by the open statement of promoting the company for the sole purpose of increasing volume...which, they knew, going forward would have the exact opposite effect and cause the stock to channel and/or be driven lower... Investors are too savvy these days, and can see through the smoke... JMHO
A previous poster mentioned to not blame management for any of this crazy stuff…Sure...let's not blame the ERBB Management for playing a leadership role in the present feeble PPS...LOL
YES, the Market Manipulators have played a big role in the manipulation of the PPS...BUT, there are some other reasons that have been previously mentioned, quickly skirted over...in hopes that it would be covered over and forgotten.
For example...One wonders what an additional $5.2 million dollars added to the bottom financial line might have done to boost the PPS value above where it presently sits.
According to SS in the web cast, AG has botched (my words) the Jurassic System deal to the tune of a $1.7M dollars loss of a deal that was promoted as having been secured;
AG has also screwed up the One Bode sale to a loss of $3.5M dollars...less the $10,000 monthly income from the negotiated deal with One Bode...which will enable AG to recover what would have been financial assets from the sale of One Bode, that can be recovered in its entirety in just 350 months, or 29 years, depending on how positive the spin... $3.5 million dollars on the bottom line might have moved the PPS higher...even though $120,000 dollars per year from the $10,000 per month is a positive asset - it is a far cry from being positive enough to move the PPS, without help from a number of other revenue producing areas.
Those complaining about the PPS demise have no further to look than these two huge mistakes. And, for those that have completely ignored, and blown off the reality of these blunders - SHAME ON YOU!!!
Even though it does look as if SS finally has gotten some on the job training, and has brought some sharp business men on board, as the ships rudder appears to be repaired and righted, the past certainly has jumped up and bitten a lot of people in the butt...
Aside from the MMs doing their usual thing, there have been other contributors to the demise of the PPS, as the CD holders have weighed in, a large number of shorts have weighed in, and management definitely has weighed in, heavily, with a 4B share OS, and 3.25B share float; the management also is responsible for these bottom line blunders that have been conveniently forgotten, and/or not spoken...and swept under the rug. Have the chickens come home to roost?
Even with the mistakes, and some struggles, there still is optimism that the ship will get righted. Just when one least expects it...the MMs will let the horse run...it's just a matter of when... a man would be foolish to bet against this penny turning around... AJMHO, of course, FWIW…from a small investor waiting and watching to see when the wind changes direction…
Actually, the Level 2 is looking good on the ask, if the bulls wanted to rush in...
And the heavy stack on the bid compliments the setting for buyers...BUT, alas, the bulls are not dummies - they must know that it would be foolish to dump a large chunk of change into a stock wherein shorts are being covered...or debentures are being converted...or someone else is selling shares... HA! HA! HA! JMHO, of course, FWIW
These boys are pretty methodical with their dumping of shares...as they have 3-5 small transactions on the ask, and then a large dump/sell of 200,000 - 1,000,000 shares, and then they repeat the process... LOL JMHO, of course, FWIW
"Every crook will ask you to trust him..."
A few links about the facial recognition vending machine....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11274179/The-vending-machine-of-the-future-is-here-and-it-knows-who-you-are.html
http://smartvendsolutions.com/product/luce-x2-touch-tv-vending-machine/
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/12/09/vending-machine-uses-facial-recognition-to-deny-snacks/
http://www.medicaldaily.com/space-age-vending-machine-luce-x2-touch-tv-uses-facial-recognition-deny-and-dispense-314570
Hmmm...looks as if ERTF is the hired assassin of the day... Sure, there is NO manipulation, as we watch ERTF do the bidding of the big money that hired him... JMHO, of course, FWIW
Hey sun and penny...I have seen buyers jumping the ask price on many occasions wherein the supposed fat finger was a fat finger with purpose.
As it served two purposes...to eat away at a strong resistance level, or to even jump beyond a strong resistance level, or to not have to even deal with that strong resistance level.
An example would be a million shares on the ask at several ticks above the ask...through a pre-arranged buy-out with the MM/MMs a buyer takes out all those shares, basically taking away a strong resistance area, and leading to a path way of least resistance. Most investors, if paying attention to level 2 has seen activity such as this.
And, the other was to try to influence, or even cause the MMs to think there might be a potential for a run, and that there are a lot of bulls that want the PPS to run.
Hey, it is reverse psychology, or the MMs being manipulated, but, I have seen it work, and runs start that way. This strategy encourages the MMs to take the bait, and get greedy, looking for much higher PPS and they pull off the ask and let the bulls run it as far as they want to...
Add to this the fact that the buying public and groups are watching these things and they jump onboard and fuel the flame...
Further add whatever short position there might be in ERBB, and let the fun times begin.
Sounds like a good plan to me...so, step up high rollers and break the shackles that are smothering the PPS and lets see some real fun on level 2...force/encourage the MMs into the greed that they live by, and cause them to turn this baby loose... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
Look at that 6 point spread between the bid and ask .101 - .107...someone definitely wants the PPS to move lower... But, in the same sense, if the bulls started hitting the ask at .0107 this PPS could fly a bit, I would think...
Who knows...only the MMs...and God... JMHO
Here is a very important short video explaining exactly the shorts use the MMs to manipulate and CONTROL the environment in favor of the shorts...
Knuckles...here is something that I posted last night about the MMs and some of the ways that they manipulate the PPS on level 2... I would hope that the IHUB board would allow more education to be shared, as investing in companies such as ERBB is a continuous learning experience...
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=111612020
This is some basic research that I have accumulated several years ago that I had filed away. It addresses some of the many Market Maker Manipulation problems associated with most penny stocks, of which ERBB is one. It is a long read, but, hopefully it addresses some of the serious problems that those of greater investing intelligence than I FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE EXISTS - EACH READER CAN BE THE JUDGE... You will also see that it is an older document as some of the MMs have disappeared from the scene... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
Using Level 2 for your buy strategy?
"I can't tell you enough how INCORRECT this is.
For example, a trader is ready to open a long (buy) position. He or she goes to their level II display and notices GSCO (Goldman Sachs) , MSCO (Morgan Stanley), MLCO (Merrill Lynch) all on the inside bid with say 8 or 9 other participants, with large size.
The trader thinks "ok I've got support (many offers to buy), and the ax (another term thrown around the internet) on my side, this is a good time to BUY."
They receive their buy confirmation and a few seconds later the stock starts to fall. All the big boys have left the bid (buy) and are now on the ask (sell). The stock is dropping fast and the trader feels panic taking over. They wonder how this could happen with all the bid support they had upon entering their position. Well, they've just been had. Welcome to loser day trading.
Most of what you see in Level II is about "head faking" and hiding true intentions. In fact, it's the market makers job to cover their intentions (buying/selling) and to cause price movement in their favor for themselves and their clients. They use Level II for this purpose. That's their business. If a market maker has an order to buy 500,000 shares, they're not going to sit on the bid all day. The whole world would see this and bid the price up, knowing that the market maker would be a buyer.
Instead, they'll play the game. Go on the bid with large size to push the price up a little, maybe even up tick (move their bid up one level) to push the price a little higher. All the while they're using an ECN, for example INCA, to sell short the shares the unsuspecting trader is buying (thanks Mr. ax). Then they move to the sell (ask) side with large size to cause a mini panic.
In this case, the market maker or makers were showing a false bid on Level II. Instead of wanting to buy the stock they really wanted to sell the stock, which they were doing through INCA.
As the panic heightens and the stock drops, the market maker will buy back the shares they just sold you at a higher price pocketing the difference (this is called selling short).
You will not see them buying back the stock because they will be buying through an ECN. Very effective, and designed to profit off of traders that look for support and resistance on the Level II screen.
Level II should be used for ORDER ROUTING. Routing is the ability to choose which market maker or ECN you wish to buy from or sell to. Never use Level II as a tool to decide WHEN to enter. Instead, use it as a tool to decide TO WHOM you wish to enter with.
Let the market makers play their games, pay no attention,. If our price movement charts say GO, we'll use the market makers for OUR advantage, not theirs.
What does happen is a company who has Billions of share to dump, contracts a distribution market maker to dump and receive certain amounts of total funds for the dump, and the MM gets percentage bonuses for the amount dumped. They'll flash different amounts of share in the ask side. But if they flash it inside the bid side, just to manipulate the price, it's a federal crime. Distribution, clearing houses, MM's are watched all to closely to take chances, especially inside of penny stocks where delusion sends reports to the SEC on a constant basis.
Subject: Market Maker Manipulation
More evidence of Market Maker Manipulation in the OTCBB. Background: A veteran of 20 years as a Market Maker would seem to qualify this commentator. He's in private trading now, but has some definite conclusions regarding MMM and what must be done about it. He cites incidents of suspected manipulation in many stocks, based on the numbers. For example, "First, one must ask themselves why do Market Makers get to hide in the OTCBB market, not revealing their short positions. This appears to be the main issue behind all of the problems. MMs should be required to hold a very limited amount of a short position (say 10%) which is not held by a paying customer/client." "When Market Makers have an infrastructure in place that allows them to cheat, they will cheat. When they are allowed to -- behind closed doors -- have a HUGE short position and are never made to balance their position in the reasonable short term, they will never correct their positions. Full disclosure of short positions in all OTCBB stocks should be REQUIRED just like it is with the other markets: NYSE, NASDAQ and AMEX."
"It is my honest opinion that there has been ample evidence of late that Market Makers are manipulating OTCBB stocks. I believe that the law of supply and demand should apply. When more buying occurs, a stock should go up. When more selling occurs a stock should go down. This does not seem to be occurring." "I shall give two examples where I have personally been affected by MM Manipulation. The first company PPS closed at 3.9 cents, up .002. During a specific period, the PPS was around .08 cents. Since that time there has been approximately 89 million bought and 10 million shares sold. According to the laws of supply and demand the price should go UP. One might expect the stock to be around .11 or .12 cents if not more!" "After all, for every share sold nearly 9 were bought! Today the stock is nearly 40% down due to unfair trading by MM’s, and I have sold 90% of my position."
The second company PPS was at about 6 cents, dropped to about 3 cents, and closed at 3.5 cents. "Recent transactions shows that during a specific time there were 14 million shares bought and around 2 million shares sold. For every share sold, around 7 have been bought. The stock has fallen unfairly from .065 to .035." "I still own around 280,000 shares. I am divulging my positions in these stocks so as to be open and honest. Shouldn't the trading community have the same right from the Market Makers? Shouldn't MM’s be required by the SEC to fully disclose their positions, both long and short?" Comment: The evidence is admittedly anecdotal, because unless some repentant MM decides to spill his guts, no one has access to proof of MMM (Market Maker Manipulation), and the MM’s certainly want to keep it that way. But as the anecdotal evidence builds and the pattern evolves, what are reasonable and objective investors to conclude?
Please require the OTCBB Market Makers to operate with the same integrity demanded in the other markets you enforce. The lack of enforcement is allowing manipulation not tolerated by your agency, in other markets.This is a clear unfairness to the investors, and should be rectified swiftly. It is not right for our (my) government to know about this problem, and be so slow to act. Same conduct & guidelines/requirements for the Market Makers should be employed and enforced across the markets. This should, and could be done without delay.
Market Maker FAQ
2. Market Manipulation or doing their job?
a. Do Market Makers manipulate the market?
i. “Market Manipulation” is an emotive term, and conjures images of shady deals and exploitation. Market Makers are not elusive companies that appear then vanish overnight. Market Makers are duty bound to make a market and to meet the needs of those they are responsible to (See 1d.) to this end they may try to influence the market.
b. How Do Market Makers make their money?
i. Market Makers make money from buying shares at a lower price to which they sell them. This is the bid/offer spread. (See 4.) The more actively a share is traded the more money a Market Maker makes.
c. Surely a Market Maker raising/lowering the price on news/rumor without any buying or selling is manipulating the market?
i. No, not really. If the Market Maker was to keep the price steady on the release of news they would find themselves with lots of buys or sells which they had no choice but to fulfil at the screen price but before they could find matching orders (buys for sells, sells for buys) they would have to change the price and they would then loose money through market exposure. This is bad for them and for us. (See 3.)
d. Why do Market Makers raise prices on Monday morning for shares tipped in the Sunday press?
i. This is the same as question 2c, because the Market Maker needs to ensure that there are enough sellers to fulfil the needs of the buyers responding to the tips.
e. Suppose my screen shows all sells and the price is increasing, what is the Market Maker doing?
i. An explanation of this phenomenon is given in a company, which very briefly shot up to 73p before settling back comfortably to the 50p support level. The likeliest explanation is that the Market Maker had an Institutional order to fill and no stock to fill it with (this trade would not have shown up on peoples screen until somewhat later), under their obligations to create liquidity in the share the Market Maker is obliged to gather a stock holding, only possible if they can encourage people to sell, which can be achieved by raising the price. The order is likely to have been large enough to be significantly outside the NMS thus allowing the Market Maker to gather a fairly significant premium on the price (probably being some-where between 50p and 73p allowing the Market Maker to offset gains against losses and still profit). Once the order is filled and the market volumes return to their "normal" levels, so does the share price.
f. Do Market Makers ever lower prices to “panic” investors into selling, sometimes called “shaking the tree”?
i. Yes, moving the price up, encourages sells, moving it down also encourage sells, take another look at this specific company, in the first instance, the price was hiked way up despite the 50p support level, but at 50p few of the people who got in between 20p and 45p are going to sell (and look how many buyers there were still at 50p), the rise was meteoric, smart money just ignored it as it only lasted about 2 hours, but what was probably caught was huge investors who were in way before 20p and had forgotten about it, now they want out. The Market Makers order gets filled, the price settles back to a smart support level and volumes decrease, however the Market Makers gets another order to fill, maybe not so big, maybe not so prepared to pay the premium, but you also know that there are a lot of people out there waiting to see if it's going to shoot up past the 50p support level again or dip and if it dips they're going to sell now before it dips back past their 100% profit level.
g. Surely delaying the posting of trades is Market Manipulation?
i. This was allowed as part of the SETS trading system when institutional investors pointed out that with 100% transparency, any other institutional investor would be able to trade against that position which would put their client holdings in jeopardy. Further, with 100% transparency, if it could be seen that an institutional investor was (for whatever reason) adjusting a large holding in a particular company it could also scare private investors into selling or alternatively encourage them to invest without doing their own research. Both scenarios lead to either over- or under-selling and an inaccurate reflection of the company in the share price as a direct result.
h. Do Market Makers try to reduce volatility?
i. Sometimes, usually at the request of the client (see 1e), this is mostly done by increasing the bid/offer spread therefore discouraging trading especially by day traders and also by marketing the clients shares to institutions in the hope they will take up long term positions.
ii. By asking their client to reduce the number of news releases.
i. Do Market Makers encourage liquidity?
i. Yes, partly because they have a duty to their client to ensure an active marking in their clients shares, and partly because they have a duty to their shareholders, it is only through trading/liquidity that Market Makers make money.
j. How do Market Makers encourage liquidity?
i. Partly just by being there, by being the enabler to liquidity, they will always buy or sell shares if you want to.
ii. By narrowing spreads.
iii. By encouraging their client to produce news releases.
Listing of Some Retail Market Makers: Many of these MM’s have fallen by the wayside, as this information was provided some years ago…but you can get an idea how they work…how some have very special duties that they perform for their clients. For example, it is widely known that VFIN is used to short a stock, dump stocks, and to drive the PPS down from the ASK side.
These are the market makers from very popular brokerage firms. They handle a lot of the order flow for small retail investors
NITE - NITE
SCHB - Schwab
TDCM - TD Water House
SBSH - Smith Barney
MLCO - Merrill Lynch
ETRD - ETRADE
GSCO - Goldman Sachs
JEFF
VERT
HILL FLCR
DOMS
VFIN
AYME
STCS
PBLC
VFIN
PERT
BKST
BNCH
This is the list that you really have to master because these are the MARKET MAKERS that handle promotions, insider transactions also S-8 and CD Transaction.
CD: means Convertible Debentures they are loans that come due and get sold into the market by the loaning company.
FANC: major S- 8 player: if there is an S- 8 on a Stock most likely he will be there on the ask until it dries up
HDSN: major CD Seller Handles a lot CD transactions.
VIEW: love when he’s on the bid
MAXM: one of the favorites: smart money more like a trader than market maker replaces GNLN for now.
CLYP: heavy seller if you see him on the bid it's unusual
SACM: love when he’s on the bid
ABLE: like it when he’s on the bid
ECN MARKET MAKERS ARCA (formally GNET): very active used by traders market makers any one can use ARCA you have to know what your are doing. If you have access to ACRA trading system you can use the ecn.
TRAC: owned by my track if you trade with my track you can use this to place your trade as a liquidity outlet same 4 data
DATA: owned by my track same concept as GNET & TRAC
There are probably a few market makers that I left out or there will be a few new market makers that show but for the most part these are the major players. Good luck hopes this helps.
About services rendered to ERBB, and them dumping the debentures for payment...wouldn't that dumping have to take place 12-18 months later, or based upon the terms of the agreement? I might be wrong, but I would think that some company just providing services for something that will not pay them for 12-18 months would not apply as a legitimate reason for the dumping of shares...
Secondly, would not the money have come, basically, from venture capitalists, who might have the money to invest in high risk MJ companies...providing the financing that might bring at least a double return of their initial investment in time?
I am far from the experience level as yourself, and many others in this room, so I might be off base sometimes with my assessments and/or comments. Thank God I only have 15 posts daily... LOL
An observation about the dumping of debentures...it appears to me that the dumping of these shares for the many months have not followed the patterns of many dumpers of the past, wherein, in the past, the shares were dumped in larger blocks of 9M shares types of transactions. These shares are more methodical, lower volume share dumps, to try to disguise investors as to what is really going on.
Also, as it has been mentioned by one prominent and well respected poster in this forum, that people would be surprised if they knew that there might be some investors on this board that might own a hundred million shares, etc. So, this statement is a little iffy, and, unless I am nuts...which is debatable, then, a few investors can be holding a ton of shares...
I also know that it is moving slow due to the share structure with OS and float being extremely bloated, and in need of a buy back that Shearin said was not going to happen, or a R/S that was not going to occur. AJMHO, of course, FWIw
There are many published articles/interviews about some of the tactics used by MMs to Manipulate the level 2 and PPS of companies such as ERBB... I did leave some of the company names out as it was so long ago, and was not relevant.
Here is one that goes back to 2000, but, I would think that the foundational principles still remain the same...you know, if the Market Maker Manipulation System ain't broke, don't fix it - No harm, no foul... LOL
I probably could find more to explain how companies like ERBB are manipulated by the Market Makers, but this should be enough to give a taste of what actually goes on...
10 Red Flags of Market Maker Manipulation (MMM) or Maintaining an Orderly Market
CROSS-TRADING is the control by one or only a few brokers who match purchases and sales to drive up or down the stock price which ever way benefits them. According to Forbes' 07/29/96 Article on Market Makers this is the hallmark of penny stock manipulation.
BOXING where a broker will position himself on both the ask and the bid, which is the heart of penny stock manipulation according to Business Week's 1996 Article: The Mob on Wallstreet eliminating competing market makers and allowing only cooperating brokers to bid on stocks, the result is a kind of rigged auction.
STOCK CALL Signals which appear to be small share blocks of stock typically 100, 200 and 300 to get a supply of stock another MM or broker to help with an "Oversell", which is the amount of shares sold by a Market Maker that were not bought. Market Makers buy on the bid and selling on the ask, which is an automatic buy low sell high advantage for them same as being the house in a casino.
LOCKING is when the MM on the ask moves to the bid in an attempt to back the bidding MM off to drive the price of the stock down. Thus by attacking the bid, both the bid and the ask are the same price. Sometimes a stock will stay locked for sometime if the bidding Market Maker does not move off the bid wanting more stock.
NOTHING DONE / NO FILLS is applied to your order and market makers trade ahead of you or flat out wont fill no matter what regardless of complaints, but if persistent will eventually get a fill.
BUY ORDERS AT THE ASK FILLED ON THE BID on the bid, which is used to show weakness in the trading thus an investor's buy is shown as an investor sell.
EXCESSIVE SPREADS BETWEEN BID AND ASK PRICES; wherein an example would be to have such a wide spread, exceeding a 20% spread on the ask, where would prevent any buyers, or sellers from partaking such a wide spread.
OVERSELL grows daily, which is where the market makers sell more stock than they have bought.
THE CHURN is market makers trading where most of the volume (59% according to Forbes' 07/29/96 Article on Market Makers) is among themselves.
FUDS are posters (Usually anonymous posters) posting deliberate false and misleading rumors (rumor-mongering) in an attempt to deflate the stock price by instilling Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt. (Could these be Market Maker or short voices) and of course attack with the same nonsense of a poster being accused of being a scamster. According to certain posters, I am doing more harm than good tracking the stock and posting it. I have to ask harm to who, exposing possible MMM by my commentary of the trading. Exposing what I feel is a wrong doing with an underlying basis to what I post. Then, there is an old professional basher that always seems to show up when a certain MM is on the bid and comes out of retirement to make just a few posts, then leaves and hasn’t posted since. hmmm…
OTC SHORTING NOTE: Someone once asked me about shorting an OTC. Well, we all know it is supposed to be illegal but in a phone conversation with a shorter, I was informed that a certain broker was used. The gentleman would Front Load, then Pump(Stretch the facts positive) Dump into the hype volume, then Short once the momentum backed off, and if necessary, Bash on being lied to by the company. This is why I wrote the P&D vs S&D. Of course I am probably the focus of a character assassination by this Florida shorter. (What else is new?) BTW I had an account with that same broker, and I did not know you could short an OTC through them.
I was wondering when someone would question what they were seeing on level 2...
Of course, this is all just a figment of our imaginations...as, the self-appointed experts have told us that the MMs do not manipulate the PPS...that there is NO "naked shorting"...that there is NO corruption...and, guess what - they are right...as it cannot be called corruption when the MMs are anointed and blessed with the freedom to do whatever THEY THINK is in the best interest of the market...and, of course, the investors. Big brother truly does know best when it comes to our investment in ERBB and other stocks.
So what, if every aspect of the market always seems to turn out in the best interest of the MMs, and those that they prostitute themselves to...it is just business...and they really do care, and would not risk their great positions, and all that money they are making by selling and buying of shares...so, we should get over it, I guess...
BTW, those 2,500 share buys and/or sells are legitimate - it is the ERBB investors that are stupid, right?...for paying a $10 broker transaction fee to buy $27 worth of stock. I know, we shouldn't pay attention to the time lapsed between these small number trades...as they are all just part of a larger transaction... LOL
"Beware of false prophets, for you shall know them by their fruit." "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." AJMHO, of course, FWIW
10.5M shares traded the first hour...with 7M sells to 3M buys...First hour typically has been the heaviest MM activity, as they usually manipulate the PPS down to where they want to work from, cover short position, etc. They are automatic... LOL
3M shares traded the next 90 minutes...
Market Manipulators buy and sell to each other...to drive the PPS down, to create panic, to shake the tree, scoop up some easy shares, to accumulate shares for the next run upward...
And, then, the Market Manipulators show their corruptness by forcing the bulls to have to buy their way back through the resistance wall that was corruptly, and falsely, built by the MMs trading shares back and forth between themselves...on their way downward...with small volume...
And, it is all legal, and blessed by the SEC...and they get to monitor their own corruptness, and police their on work. Yeah, we can trust them... LOL What a great country we live in, huh? JMHO, of course, FWIW...as I watch the criminals at work on the level 2...
Nothing much but BS babble 27 minutes into the conversation...sounds like a few "high" guys talking...
Most know of the history of MJ, and what has gone on till this point...
This time could have been spent by talking about the partner companies, their deals, revenues, projected revenues, etc. I really did not care to know about sitting underneath a rock, stoned, 45 feet beneath the water, in the Bahamas, watching the fish swim by... Or fencing, etc. JMHO, of course, FWIW
Where do you think these numbers are coming from on this website, if you think that it is not a true assessment of the number of shares shorted in ERBB? Why would they put out this information if it had no validity?
http://otcshortreport.com/index.php?index=erbb&action=view#.VPpa_lJ0xdj
Also, due to the cover percentage attached to the short position, it has been mentioned that by putting such an outrageous, unbelievable sell price number on our shares with our broker, that it is blown off by the broker, as he knows it is well beyond reality and he does not change his share loan practices. The broker has to know his safe zone, which would make him toe the line more readily, and place the margin call that will squeeze the balls of the shorts.
It was mentioned that it might be more practical to put in a share price sell of between 50% - 100% above the present PPS of the stock, as this goes a bit beyond the 30% - 50% PPS increase above the present PPS of the stock, which is the basic margin call range.
Also, have you done some research into the offshore shorting of the shares through hedge funds, which definitely goes on, even though there is very little mention of it? Strange, unexplainable things are going on... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
As you know, sun, I agree with much of what you speak... I would think that the more that some speak against the wise observations that you share, calling it out for not being of any relevance...the more relevant it becomes.
Being as the MMs are loosely regulated by the government when it comes to naked shorting of shares, It appears that they are laxxed when it comes to accountability...especially in the pink sheets where following the law is rare, accountability is non-existent, and more money is made by the selling of shares than the running of an honest, reporting business.
It's a no-brainer, and typical scenario in this country for someone to make a hundred million dollars selling/dumping shares in their own company, knowing that if they are caught they will get a slap on the wrist and pay a small fine. The average Joe would be in prison for a long time.
This is seen in the pharmaceutical industry with medicines, wherein, say, $5 billion dollars might be made from the sale of a drug that proves to be a health hazard and dangerous. The liability is added into the product, and there is slush fund set aside, already built into the system, to compensate for the harm and/or death. Simple economics today...
I would think that the broker plays a part in the manipulation, as he knows the MM crookery is going on, yet, he only gets involved when the margin call comes into effect...when his nuts get squeezed...and, he, in turn, squeezes the nuts of the shorter.
The MMs have been erroneously given complete, absolute control of almost every aspect of the investment game as they are given a set of guidelines that are heavily tilted in their favor; they make the market that does not need to be "made", and that should be left alone to live or die by those that are buying or selling (bulls or bears);
No trades can happen without their involvement and/or complete control...on their terms, usually in their time frame, aside from whatever kind of bullish or bearish money is behind, or driving the market/PPS;
They control the success, or failure, of investors, and their money, as they cater to the interests of many different groups vying for their many corrupt and manipulative services; the MMs are given free reign in an industry that is unregulated, highly manipulated, and a breeding ground for organized crime... Where else could criminals have the perfect breeding ground for making a $100 million dollars through the legitimately recognized, and accepted, selling of billions of shares of stock in their own company?
The shorting organizations, and the MMs to some extent that are shorting the shares, have three main goals when they enter into the short selling process: 1)to make money by gambling that the PPS value will decline, 2)to benefit from the various bashing organizations and techniques used, as they are usually granted amnesty from prosecution from their deceitfulness, lies, falsification of information, slander, etc. 3)to completely destroy the company by shorting it into oblivion...out of business.
This shorting agenda provides the shorting investor with a "double dip" victory, as they will have squeezed every penny, and ounce of blood, that they could get out of the misfortune and/or manipulation of the company. In this scenario the beneficiary of a combination of many corrupt acts allows the investor to ride the short selling wave all the way down to zero, leaving them with a 100% profit on their short position, and setting up a situation wherein they will not have to cover their short position.
This "NO risk" short position and strategy sets up a win-win scenario for those that have evil intents. NOTE: one year there were 7,800 small companies that were shorted out of business. Until the whole short selling fiasco is addressed, better regulated, with protections set in place to protect the vulnerable companies, and investors, the carnage and chaos will continue to be reign supreme. Until the rules and regulations are tightened up, it will forever remain a cesspool of corruption, manipulation, and a safe haven environment for organized crime that is legalized by the SEC.
The shorts win because they play off of lies, slander, panic, and greed, perpetuated by bashing groups, most of which are paid performers with scripted presentations. These messengers of doom and gloom are well organized, and scripted, working together to continuously hammer the believers who have put money into the stock of the company.
In addition, the shorts win because they are better organized, they work together, and usually are NO match for the scattered individual investors that they are competing against. Furthermore, the shorts are usually heavily backed, financially, by large hedge groups, organized crime, and/or competitors of the company that have financial incentive for hiring these groups to do their dirty work for them, as they destroy the foundation of companies.
About the MMs having a marked deck - you are absolutely correct about that, as they have advantages such as level 3, wherein they can see beyond the level 2 that investors have access to, and see all the orders, stop losses, etc., which enables them to quickly crash a PPS to take out stop loss positions, etc.
The MMs also have this message board, and any number of others, that provide thousands of investors that do their DD for them, as much of the DD in these rooms are shared in most instances. In this case, the information can help, and it can hurt, the investors.
Yes, the brokerages are involved in the corruption, and conspiracy to set up an unfair playing field that steals investors money...as they could better monitor the shorted shares, and, especially the "naked shorted" shares, and have more stringent regulations to protect the investors, instead of providing a cover for the legally allowed corruption.
I am not any kind of expert...just speaking from what I have learned from others, and from personal observations through places such as this message board. AJMHO, of course, FWIW
16.2 million buys, to 14.9 sells might throw a monkey wrench into that assessment...
43%(13.5 million shares) of the 32 million shares traded were listed as being shorted today... If this is true, then the shorts have very little respect for anything good coming from the Sunday night program with Shearin...as they appear to be very cocky/confident that they have the numbers and support to short 14 million shares, and possibly holding them, heading into another week.
As it looks, shorts had NO intentions of covering today, or going into the weekend, as they posted their highest shorting percentage of shares in a month of trades. For that kind of short position, the trading session Monday could be interesting...from two different perspectives:
First of all, if Shearin does not have anything of substance, the bears will have more control, and incentives to continue taking the PPS lower.
Secondly, if Shearin pulls a rabbit out of his hat with something that can be a game changer, then, that 14 million shares shorted, plus an unknown number of shorted shares, by individuals, and by MMs, could be enough shorted shares to set the atmosphere for a "wild fire"...that would then be fueled by the Bulls...
A thought about the low volume... We know that there are probably several of the 57,000 shareholders in ERBB that could be holding as much as 100 million shares or more. Only 10 of these investors could account for one fourth of the OS, and one third of the float. So, could we assume that most of the high rollers are still holding onto their shares...possibly creating a shortage of tradable shares, which would precipitate the environment wherein the MMs have to do everything that they can to prevent any kind of break out?
I mention this, as there could be as much as 2 - 3 billion shares owned by present shareholders, and and possibly as much as 2 billion or more shares that are "naked shorted" by MMs. Now, we know that the MMs are not going to have their butts handed to them, if, indeed they are short a couple of billion shares...thus, setting the stage for all the trading back and forth between themselves that we are seeing on a daily basis.
One more thing, there appeared to be NO dumping of debenture shares today...or, certainly much less than the past couple of months, and a ton of very small orders, which, to me, signals MM trading between themselves, as very few people will make buys and sells of hundreds to a few thousand shares. Why spend $10 to buy or sell just $50 - $100 worth of shares? I may be wrong... AJMHO, of course, FWIW
$20 million dollars would retire 2 billion shares...without a R/S, and ERBB would be off to the races...
Also, about the shorted shares and percentages the last 5 days in ERBB...the average percentage of shorted shares are 29% totaling approximately 78 million shares...of the total 286 million shares traded.
http://otcshortreport.com/index.php?index=erbb&action=view#.VPnidlJ0xdi
Lots of small buys and sells for the last 90 minutes...could be MMs just buying and selling to each other setting up a walk down on small volume. They could run this thing, but, something is keeping them from doing so - enter huge naked short position possibility...possibly totaling two or more billion shares... AJMHO, of course, FWIW