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What is this queue in which you speak of? I am quite interested in to know where it states that there is some line of people just waiting to sell their power on a public grid.
By the way, I will be posting pictures today (Hopefully) of views from Gorham vs. Berlin... show people that Berlin, although a great town, has its specialty. It has a workforce of hundreds of skilled industrial workers eager to get back to work.
If you cared about your town, you would care about its people!
From what I read, CPD was dealing with a decaying and inadequate facility. Laidlaw is going to be working with a fairly new boiler and new infrastructure.
What say you?
Absolutely. Either way you are arguing, for or against, it is dangerous and should not be done. Every bit of research should be taken with a grain of salt. Start with Lexus Nexus (GREAT research tool), then use books, followed by internet text, followed (WAY FAR BEHIND) by the word of those on forums. I understand that it can be hard to smell BS, but nevertheless, scrutinize EVERYTHING that you read and just use the facts. The answers will come.
I've got a lot more of these to read now that I am settled in at work!
Well, new day new post.
I found a site where I think a lot of these nay-sayers are getting their information from:
http://www.citizensforanewvision.com/
Let me remind people how dangerous it is to use other people's analysis without scrutinizing it heavily first is. That is what creates a sort of "mob mentality".
I have read through some info on the site and a lot of it sounds familiar with what I heard on this discussion forum.
While I have nothing wrong with gathering information to use for arguments (Its the only way!), I do have a problem with someone using data collected from one source. That is what is known in the math world (and also from an analytical perspective) as a bias. A bias is always a variable which should be sought out and eliminated if at all possible.
It is time for the nay-sayers to diversify their reading and not buy into everything that is told to them.
This site has an agenda: A stack-less, industrial-free Berlin. For what reason? I can only venture a guess, which I will not do at this time until I know more.
Also, I am a little skeptical of this whole "Master Plan". I am certain that this view is only held by a small minority of people whose interests do not lie with those of the common citizens of Berlin.
I hope this can continue tomorrow, this has been great! Good night all.
Matthew
Which strengthens my point that Berlin is not and will not be a hub for tourism... its just not in the books. All the Hotels and Resorts are in Gorham/Conway/Littleton. Berlin needs to regain its place as an Industrial powerhouse and stick to that. I am not sure of other people's agendas on this board for trying to force tourism into Berlin, but it is misguided.
Berlin does not have what Tourists want. Gorham has the Appalachian trail, the Bed and Breakfasts and the amenities that cater to tourists (moose tours for example). Berlin right now is an area stricken with unemployment, higher relative crime rates, and low real estate. It is not the most beautiful town in the area, but it has the opportunity to be the most successful. That will come with increased jobs, more money (less crime) and a desire to be good at what Berlin already has (an industrious workforce!)
Berlin should not try to be Gorham (A lot of families from Gorham relied on the mill as well for jobs!). They each have their unique offering and should stick to what they have to be prosperous!
And yes that picture is fabricated, I have never seen a view like that from Berlin, especially near the stacks. Berlin for the longest time was known as "the smelly town" due to the odors and emissions that the P&P plant emitted. Imagine being industrious with a fraction of the emissions? Think about it.
I really appreciate all the information being thrown about. I am learning a lot more than I thought when I first decided to join this discussion!
To all, I have written 14 posts and this is my last remaining. I hope to pick back up at this tomorrow at work.
Best of luck to all and it was great speaking with all of you!!!
Matthew
I really am liking the refreshing past posts from you, rscomps. I agree with the Data Centers. The temperatures are favorable (Natural cooling, perhaps?) in the region. I go to school with a lot of Computer Science majors who are upset about the lack of tech jobs in NH and northern New England.
I too am a huge proponent of Nuclear power. It will be what propels the USA through the 21st century and onward. But alas, that is a different topic which I am willing to discuss on a separate board (? Is that proper procedure, to not stray from LLEG?)
I have some great articles (Objective, of course) on Nuclear Power that I would love to share. I cannot private message you my email, so do send me yours.
Matthew
Why did they superimpose Mt. Washington (WHICH IS TO THE Southwest of Gorham) onto the background of the old Pulp and Paper mill in Berlin, which is North of Gorham? From my recollection, I only remember seeing Mt. Forest and Mt. Jasper from Berlin... neither of which are Presidentials.
Here is a link to a map to get some reference point of what we are talking about here.
Keep in mind, I may be wrong about this, but in all my 18 years of living in Gorham (and travelling to Berlin... A LOT) I never remember having my breath taken away from the Mountain views like I do on Rt. 16 near Glen...
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mt.+Washington,+NH&sll=39.65275,-74.5548&sspn=0.089477,0.22316&ie=UTF8&ll=44.370987,-71.110382&spn=0.332292,0.892639&t=h&z=11
If you honestly believe that Berlin's future lies in Tourism and not industry, then there is nothing further I can do to change your mind on that.
I should however be able to change your mind about the views of the Presidentials! Have you ever seen Adams and Jefferson from atop Gorham Hill? Wow.
You are mistaken on how long you judge an upgrade of minimal proportions (65 MW does not require an extensive upgrade... 650MW, THATS a different story).
I am happy that you are on board with Noble's plans for a wind plant, it sounds fine and dandy but to be honest, it makes sense to locate a power plant CLOSEST to the source of fuel, which I still have been unable to locate ANY valid information on the lack of low quality wood that you are claiming.
Dissent on both sides provides nothing but healthy dialogue.
What was BNHR "laughing" about in an earlier post? I only have 4 left tonight (Free member) so I fear that I may run out before I can get all my words in!
It looks like Whitefield went down because the government stopped subsidizing the price for generating power with renewable energy. Whitefield's 16MW plant simply did not have the throughput to sustain itself without Uncle Sam's help.
Looks like the last I am hearing is that a Japanese company is looking to invest. http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Japanese+firm+buys+Whitefield+Power+facility&articleId=939d9691-7464-4a9b-8574-81f2a317577e
I no longer live in the White Mountains, although my family does and I try to visit and keep in the know. If I appear ignorant in any way it is not intentional, but it is hard enough keeping up with life down state!
I wish the best for Berlin and I am happy to share that with you. Let us think for the common good, no?
Oh how nice it is to get an intelligent reply! So first off, Thank You. I wouldn't consider myself a lifelong resident of Berlin. I grew up in Gorham, attended the Public school system there, worked jobs here and there during High School in the summertime. Nevertheless, I would like to point out that I have nothing but the best interests in mind for the area and wish to see it prosper.
I'd like to address your first topic of concern, which is the physical location of the plant, supposedly blocking the Presidential mountain range. You and I both know that Berlin does not have a view of the Presidential's, at least one worth noting! I understand that some residents wish to make Berlin another North Conway or Gorham. That is not the goal that Berlin should be attempting to create. Coos county does not need another town for people to seasonally visit, spend money and subsequently leave. As I stated in earlier posts, that is not Berlin's history nor should it be its vision.
I believe you were addressing MW, not mw (milliwatts are what my electronics use). Not trying to dwell on small items, but as an engineer, terminology is very important. Upgrading the infrastructure to support 65 MW is not a complex task by any means. New lines can easily be strung up (Providing more jobs!) and the process to link Berlin to the nearest high power line (Which I believe runs through Gorham/Randolph/Gilead) would be a 5-10 mile undertaking AT MOST. Upgrading the current grid would do nothing but add more work and also provide a benefit for other companies to invest in NH's future.
I do not know much about Whitefield's plant other than they closed due to lack of maintenance and outdated technology. The Biomass plant that Laidlaw is proposing will no doubt be a state-of-the-art facility that would utilize current, efficient technology. There mission statement tells me nothing but.
Wind power is a great technology as well and should not be put on the back burner to any other emerging technology. But wind requires space and a constant wind source, both of which NH lacks. Wind does not provide the power per acre that a Biomass plant would. On that note, neither of them even come close to Nuclear (Which I also am a proponent of).
I like Laidlaw's plan of using scrap wood from across the country as well! Having lived in a hurrican-ravaged area (Gulf Coast of Florida) for a season... I know all too well how a clean-up/energy production cycle could be as beneficial and cost-effective as anything!
One last topic about multiple boiler usage... you clearly ignored the fact that a boiler can be set to run optimally (using only the power that is needed to produce the power output required). I do not know much about CPD but I do understand optimizing power usage and your car analogy does not hold up.
Another side note getting back to the skyline of Berlin... When photographed, Berlin's mill is almost always one of the focal points. Berlin is Industry. Why resent that? Why would one not want to embrace it as a source of pride! Berlin has the capability (with funding and horizontal upgrading) to become a major player in NH. Berlin no longer needs to be talked about as a decaying town, but a city to be proud of!
Thank You again for your reply! It really is great to hear the other side from an intelligent and well thought out point of view. Let's keep this up, shall we?
Til then,
Regards,
Matthew Borowski
I wouldn't consider calling me a "kool-aid drinker" a personal attack but rather is a sign of a lack of better argument. Although with a reply like the one that was written, one could wonder who really drinks kool-aid...
My father posts on Yahoo quite frequently. He is a big proponent of Ethanol and Cellulosic energy. If he posts under FBorowski or Brewski, then that is definitely him and I would be his son. Not to harp on my Father, but his posts would be a little less eloquent.
This is my first time posting in a forum regarding to LLEG.
Matthew Borowski
I'm sorry... what are you inferring by that statement?
Berlin resident,
You have failed to acknowledge, let alone answer any of my questions nor respond to any of my statements. To be frank, I have never considered myself one to drink "kewl-aid", I've always preferred water since it is neutral and cannot be interpreted other than what it is.
You say that "the days of heavy industrial Berlin are gone", but you fail to acknowledge that without heavy industry, Berlin has done nothing but rust and decay. Berlin IS industry and without industry, Berlin will not survive. I really doubt that people in Berlin are fearing another mill site, since the mill site has brought Berlin everything and without it, Berlin gets reduced to a welfare state.
What are you proposing to do with the site? Of course, neither you, me or anyone other than the State and Laidlaw can decide that, I am interested in hearing your alternative proposal. The people of Berlin are and always have been industrious people. I have known my Father to be nothing but hardworking and when he is out of work all he does is look for jobs within his industry (maintaining instruments that measure various parameters of a mill). His co-workers are in the same boat that he is in but have not been as successful.
Your skepticism is well-heard but not well-spoken.
I look forward to your reply! This is a great exchange of ideas!
Matthew
From what I have read, travel FROM Europe to the USA is up and FROM the USA to Europe is down. That is due to the value of the dollar not being at the levels it used to be. This is also true because of the high costs of Crude Oil which directly affect the costs of JP-8 (Jet fuel). There are also a lot of cheap (Ryan Air, for example) Europe-Europe airline companies taking off, which provide service to many European cities for the same price as the rail system (but much more convenient). I think the discount airlines are counting on their low prices to bring more people out to the airports. I have not heard many reports as to how well these discount airlines are doing, however.
A company such as laidlaw (whose mission statement revolves around clean energy) would not hinder tourism in any way, if that is what BerlinNHresident is concerned about. Tourists do not visit Berlin. Berlin (Not to knock on Berlin in ANY way) is not seen as a tourist destination. They do not have the B&Bs, Hotels, or Restaurants that are native to Gorham/Randolph/Shelburne/Jefferson. Berlin has and will always be an industrial town. Why any resident of Berlin (who KNOWS the history of the town) would want to change that, is beyond my current comprehension. The logging industry (in this case, Biomass from woodchips) has always been the lifeblood of Berlin and part of the downfall has come from high energy prices and also factoring in that we are living in an increasingly paperless world (Thank you internet). The need for Pulp and Paper coupled with the costs of running the mill brought it to its knees.
It is time to come in with a change of pace and help this struggling town out! With this plant comes jobs and capital. Leave the outdoorsy tourism to the ski resort towns (Gorham, Bethel) and to the quaint B&Bs that dot the towns. Keep Berlin industrial!
Matthew
This is a great point! Electricity is a universal commodity! It can be used for just about every type of application and further reducing our need for gasoline!
I am a huge proponent of Electric Vehicles and coupled with alternative energy sources for our nation's power needs, that is the answer to cutting our need for foreign oil! Why not keep the money where it is needed (Berlin, for example) and not where it isn't (Middle East)!
Which as we all know, is not the case. I have seen the drawings to make the Berlin mill site into a recreational site... but who will have money to enjoy it? Not the locals who are struggling to find jobs and will most likely leave their homes because of the economic conditions! The people to enjoy it would be tourists and (as we call them Massholes) people from further south in New England (Weekend Warriors).
Berlin has always had a mill. It is milling and logging that has kept Berlin alive for all these years. After James River, PPA, Fraser Papers, etc... I could see how a person would be weary of another company coming in to take control. But this is different.
This is not another mill to take over and then successively fail. This is a revamping of what Berlin knows. Why not put a Biomass plant where a Pulp and Paper mill used to be? The area is still zoned industrial. What impact would a power plant have on the Berlin area other than act as a stimulus?
I want answers to the questions that you posed to me, in your opinion.
The Gorham Common is not an industrial zone, it is intended for recreation. This is why they are not building a plant on the BERLIN common either!
Do not fear change, embrace it. I love Berlin/Gorham and a clean, renewable energy plant would do wonders for that region.
Please rebut.
I lived in Gorham, NH for 18 years of my life. For those of you who aren't familiar with the area, Gorham is a town smaller than Berlin about 5 miles away. Gorham has always been the smaller of the two but nevertheless, many residents of the town (as well as Berlin) depended upon the various owners of the Berlin and Cascade mill sites for their primary source of income. Gorham has a population of around 3600 and Berlin I believe is home to about 8-9000 currently.
I am now 23 and in College studying Electrical Engineering. I did not want to be a Berlin/Gorham "Townie" that depended upon the mill for work, only to ride the roller coaster that it has been as of late. For an area so small, a loss of 1000 jobs has had a devastating effect. Men (my father included) that have worked at the mill for over 30 years suddenly reduced to unemployment. Combine that with a low housing buying market and it means that most people are unable (sometimes unwilling) to sell their homes and move on. The area has a very tight community, something you don't find elsewhere in the US. I can still go to the grocery store when I am at my Parents house on a winter break and see 5-6 people that I used to know really well and talk for minutes with them.
The point of this writing is this: The majority of people in the area where the LLEG project is taking place wants to get back to work. There are a lot of hardworking people in the area who want jobs and from what I can tell (on the inside, talking informally with current residents) the sentiment to have the plant transition into a usable (and job creating) biomass plant is very positive. Now some aren't like my father (who IMO is the strongest man that I know... he has worked various contract jobs around the country at other power plants. He is also approaching 60 and has dealt with numerous ailments including a brain tumor, torn ACL, Prostate cancer. You get the idea) and have just been stagnant, collecting unemployment and trying to keep their family afloat. The locals (except for a few uninformed ones and i stress few) want this to happen.
I myself, have invested in LLEG in the last month or two when I saw the price break to the .0009 range. I am hoping for the best for this stock as well as the rest of you, not only to make some money in the process, but also in hopes that the plants takes off and brings relief to a struggling area of NH, which aside from the economic situation they are currently in, is an amazing area of our country.
If anyone has any questions about the area, please do not hesitate to post them.
Who knows, maybe someday I will be an engineer at Laidlaw!
I have been reading various posts (LOTS of speculation = not my cup of tea). I want to know from those who follow LLEGs news closely, how close are we to making a deal here, and how long until a plant turns a profit?
Best of luck to all!!!!