Investor
Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
JTF,
Like Yakman, I also am interested in making a visit to the site. If it is possible to join you guys, I would try and free up my schedule to fly out to Utah for a day or 2 next week. Let me know if you are open to others joining the group for the visit, and when and what times you will be there.
Thanks,
FFF
RDG,
It may not be a point - counter point. It is possible that they have investors who are willing to loan the company money and not by buying additional shares. For some favorable interest rates and a quick turn around, why not?
Tina,
Another question for the IR is "When will their website be back up?"
Tina,
Questions:
1. Do they anticipate needing to authorize additional shares beyond the current 2.5B?
2. I would like an update on CPRK obtaining long term financing. Is it in place, or when will it be in place?
Thanks.
FFF
JTF,
Does this new announcement have anything to do with them securing their long term financing?
I would like to wish each of you and your families a very merry Christmas (or what ever holiday you celebrate) and a happy New Year!
FFF
Get used to new shares coming into the float. There are over 2B shares of stock that will become unrestricted over the next 9 months. And unless CPRK starts to deliver on what they say and they start up the floatation mill, I think these additional shares in the float are going to provide a continued downward pressure on the pps. I really want to hear that the mill is up and operational and that they have secured the long term financing that they are currently trying to wrap up. Those things may help to counteract the influence of more shares hitting the float.
FFF
I read some where else that the float is up 63M shares. That may have something to do with the selling going on today.
FFF
Old Fart,
That is the best news I have heard in a while!
I see the stock price had dipped down to $.013 again. I suppose that some people may be tired of delays and are getting out???
JTF,
If the long term financing is big enough to build the new SX-EW plant and pay for 6-12 months worth of expenses, then I would agree with that thought process.
Does the concentrate already have the gold, silver, moly, etc. removed or is it all still in the concentrate? If they can extract all the other metals and then just keep the copper concentrate, they can take adavantage of the high gold and silver prices now to pay for expenses, and warehouse the copper until that price goes back up. I don't know if that is how the process works or not, but that could be a way to have the best of both worlds!
FFF
Yak,
I don't know. But my guess is that as they startup operations they are going to need all the cash they can get and that they will sell everything coming out of the mill, regardless of price.
Thanks for putting the gold and silver pricing charts on the board Tina!
It is nice to see the trend up in the gold and silver prices over the last month or so. I keep watching copper prices go down, so it is nice to know that we have other elements to mine and process that have their prices going up.
I know that they have the ability to alter production to capitalize on the prices of the different materials they are mining for. If gold is up and copper is down, they will mine and process the ore from areas that has a greater concentration of gold. If copper is up and gold is down, then they will mine the ore from the parts of the mine that has higher concentrations of copper, and maybe not very much gold, etc. So as long as some of the materials are increasing in price, CPRK can alter their production to maximize the value of the ore being processed.
FFF
JTF,
Thanks for the clarification. I was just reporting info I got from another site, and I appreciate your clarification on it! You have a lot of knowledge about what is going on and I want to thank your for sharing that with all of us.
FFF
I was reading another CPRK message board and got the following information from there:
1. The float has increased by 13% to 373.5M shares. That means there is an additional 40M shares of CPRK stock available for trading. I know that restricted shares were supposed to start coming off restriction around this time, so I am pretty sure that's what this is. The O/S and A/S remain the same.
2. Some of the electrical equipment they were waiting for came in wrong and had to be sent back. That should delay the soft start by 2-3 weeks. I don't know what the equipment was. The other post said it had to be returned to Japan. I assume that they are shipping the equipment by boat, so unless this process started several weeks ago, it will take longer than 2-3 weeks to ship new equipment here from Japan. It takes 30 days on a boat to get here from China. So my best guess at this time is that a soft start won't happen until mid to late January.
Given that there is a 13% increase in the float AND that there has been a delay in the soft start, I am pleased with the fact that the share price has remained pretty flat and not taken a nose-dive.
FFF
Tina Marie,
It seems that the price of copper continues to slowly go down. However, gold and silver are going up and we know that they have found significant amounts of gold and silver there.
Could you put gold and silver pricing charts on the I Box, just like you already have for the copper?
Thanks.
FFF
SJF,
If you are in it for the long haul, then don't lose any sleep over the current stock price. I'm down quite a bit too right now. But I didn't plan on selling for at least a year or two, so why worry too much about it now. Hopefully the price starts going up. But if it goes down, then maybe it will be time to buy more and cost average down!
FFF
Arnold,
You seem to be on a buying spree. How many shares are you up to?
Today was an exception for the CPRK stock price. This stock has a history of closing higher than it opened. In fact, today was the first time in a month that it closed higher than it opened. We are only a week into Dec. but we have spent the last week or so running between $.0135 - $.016. It just so happened that the last trade today was at $.015. I wouldn't read anything into it. The stock price was running at or below $.0145 all day and the last 40,000 shares traded just happened to be at $.015. When we see the lows for the day stay above $.014 for a while and the highs stay above $.016 for a while, then you can maybe start to think that the price is moving up.
I think so. See my post #17351.
I don't know what the company valuation and pps requirements are for the American or the Canadian exchanges. I think you have to be over $1 per share for the low end of the American exchanges and I believe that you have to have shown that you can maintain that level over a period of time. Again I don't know the time frames.
The first thing they need to do to raise the pps is to get in production and be profitable. Once they have extra cash then they can look at ways to use the money to raise the pps, i.e. buyback of stock, dividends, invest in expanding the mill and ore refining capabilities to increase throughput of the system. Then if they still can't get the pps to the level they need, they may look at doing a reverse split. An R/S usually has a very negative connotation and can cause the overall value of the outstanding stock to drop, but if they did it in conjunction with a dividend, a buyback, and a press release stating that this is to qualify them for an exchange upgrade it would probably work out well.
FFF
PS: I agree with liking the $2 per share buyout price
Arnold,
A buyback is when the company buys shares of their own stock on the open market and then retires those shares of stock, thereby taking them out of the float. There are currently 2.496B shares of outstanding stock. If they were to pay $25M in dividends some day that would be around $.01 per share with 2.5B shares of stock. Or if someone offered to buy the company for $2.5B then that would be $1 per share of stock. However, for the sake of easy math, let's say that the company bought back half of the outstanding shares (1.25B) so that only 1.25B shares were left in the market. Then the $25M dividend would be worth $.02 per share, or a $2.5B purchase price would be worth $2 per share.
Also, the perceived value of the company is the number of outstanding shares of stock multiplied by the share price. If you buyback and remove outstanding shares, then the price of the stock should go up so that the formula of outstanding shares x share price still equals the same number.
If they want to move up to the NYE, NASDAQ, etc., they have to get the pps up significantly from where it is. Each exchange has a minimum share price for the stocks on that exchange. If a stock on an exchange goes below that minimum price for an extended period of time, then the exchange will kick them out of the exchange, or delist them. Buying back shares of their own stock is one way to increase the pps of the stock which can move them closer to listing on a recognized exchange.
FFF
I have heard that some people think that some people and institutions may have been naked short selling the CPRK stock and driving the price down. Naked short selling is illegal, but the SEC is short handed and doesn't have the manpower to look into questionable activities on penny stocks. The SEC is focused on the big players on the large exchanges.
If this is true, then the artificial lowering of the stock price has cost Dotson and other shareholders plenty. They had to sell shares of stock to raise the capital needed to build the mill, and with lower prices they had to sell a lot more shares of stock than they would have had to if the price had been higher. This caused everyone's shares to be diluted more than they would have been if the share price was higher. I think this may be why there has been talk of the company buying back shares of the stock once the money starts coming in.
However, on the flip side, the lower share price enabled me, and I am sure many of you, to buy in at lower prices. Bad for Dotson and some of the originals like JTF, but good for me and others who have invested. Hopefully they will be able to do a nice buyback of shares over the next year or so and reward those who are in this for the long term.
FFF
I don't know the quantity, but I do know that there are restricted shares that will become unrestricted in January.
Tina, can the TA give us the schedule for how many shares come off restriction each month over the next year?
JTF,
Do you know if they are finding high concentrations of gold and silver that are way above what they originally thought was there?
The forward looking financial statements that I have seen use copper prices of $2.75-$3.50 (currently around $1.60), gold at $500-600, and silver at $10-13.
They also show that copper revenue is expected to be 20 times that of the gold revenue, and about 10x that of the silver revenue. So unless they have hit a motherload of gold, I am not sure how a 20-25% increase in the price of gold is going to offset a 40-50% decrease in the copper prices from their projections.
FFF
Arnold,
I have no idea what the price will hit next year. This is my first venture into the pink sheets. From a lot of what I have read on this, and other message boards, I don't know if a company can or cannot achieve a great share price while still in the pinks. And I'm not sure if they will be in a position next year to move up to another exchange.
If you want to use a logical formulation for share price, you could take the expected profit per share and then take a multiple of that. Assuming they make $30M in 2009 and there is still 2.5B shares, then you would have an earnings per share, EPS, of $.012. I have no idea what a reasonable multiple of the EPS would be for a mining operation, but lets assume it would be somewhere between 8-15. Then the share price would be in the range of $.10-$.18. But from some of the things I have read, I am not sure if that type of logic holds for pink sheet stocks.
FFF
JTF,
I agree. If the company is going to be aggressive in buying back stock, they would actually benefit from a lower stock price - and staying pink for a while could actually help that. They had to issue a lot of shares to raise the capital to complete the mill and this caused a lot of inside shareholders to have a lesser percentage of ownership of the company. I would think that Dotson and any other insider shareholders would love to see an aggressive buy back program that would strengthen their ownership percentage in the company. Giving up dividends to buy back stock in the short term could be very beneficial to shareholders in the long run.
I don't know if the long term plan is to keep the company or to try and sell it, but if it ever does get sold the sale price per share would be much higher if they could significantly reduce the number of outstanding shares.
Arnold,
I think it is way too early to tell if they would do an R/S. There are certain share prices that must be met and maintained in order to get on different exchanges. To be honest, I am not even sure what those price levels are. But, if they can't get the share price to those levels at the current A/S, then they may have to consider a R/S in the future if they really want to move up to a higher level exchange.
FFF
Arnold,
I wouldn't be holding my breath for a dividend next June. The PR that talked about this said that they expect to be in a position to do a dividend. It did not say they would.
The latest PR said that they would "consider pursuing open market buy-backs and retirement of outstanding stock in order to provide a tighter capital structure". I personally think would be a higher priority than paying a dividend.
I see 4 possible good uses of profits for next year, and paying dividends is the one that I think would be the least likely. But I also think that any of them, or any combination of them, would boost the stock price.
1. Buy back outstanding shares of stock and retire them.
2. Start phase 2 of the mill and increase their ore processing capacity.
3. Pay dividends to all shareholders.
4. Pay down some of their debt to increase the strength of the balance sheet.
Let's look at the dividend possibility. Their forward looking financial plan called for a 1st year profit of around $60M. However, the price of copper in that analysis was much higher than it is now. So let's assume that their first full year will produce at most $25M-$30M. Real production probably won't start up until later in January and I am sure there will be some hiccups along the way during the first 3 months. So by June, the best I can see would be a profit of somewhere in the neighborhood of $10M. And then I would think that, at best, they would use 1/2 of the profits for dividends and keep at least 1/2 for other uses. That leaves at most $5M to be split amongst 2.5B shares, which comes to only $.002 per share. And I personally don't think that is a large enough dividend to make a dramatic statement in the market.
They also stated in their lastest PR's that they want to "pursue a formal exchange listing". To do that you really need to get the share price way up and I don't think $.002 dividend will help much with that. I think you take advantage of the stock staying on the Pink Sheets for a while longer (which may help to keep the price lower) and buy back and retire as many shares as you can. That will really strengthen the share price and support the long term holders of the stock.
All I can say at this point is that it is starting to get interesting!
F-Cubed
My uninformed opinion is that we will continue to see downward price pressure on the stock at least until there is a significant press release and/or until the mill goes online.
Does anyone have any information on any upcoming PR's or when they expect to fire up the processing mill?
FFF
Arnold,
What in the chart makes you think this is poised for a run?
This stock almost always ends the day at a lower price than it starts the day. Given that we started the day down, I do not have a good feeling about the pps today. We may see this go below $.015 today. I don't like it, but I have a feeling that will be the case.
Does anyone know if CopperKing has raised all the money they need to get into production?
If they have raised enough, then they probably don't care if the stock stays down until production starts. That may be why there have not been any press releases.
If they still need to raise more capital by selling more shares of stock, then I am concerned that the price is staying low and there is no information coming from the company. If they have to sell more stock it is to their benefit to have the price per share higher.
Thanks.
FFF
OptionsKing,
To answer your questions:
1. From an Oct. 14 press release: "The company expects the Flotation Mill to be fully online and the flow sheet perfected by January 2009, with positive cash flow following. The company expects to be in a position to pay its first dividends by June 2009."
2. I bought direct from the company at $.02.
F-Cubed
Eye,
Because the majority of the outstanding shares are restricted, a larger mining firm can't come in and "scoop up the company" off the open market. There are just not enough shares available for them to be able to do that. And my guess is that the majority of the CPRK stock is owned by Dotson and a select few insiders, so they would have to all be in agreement in order for another company to buy out CPRK. And from what I have heard on these boards from people "in the know", it doesn't sound like that is their plan. However, if another company wanted to come in and buy out CPRK for $.50+ per share, I would be all for it! After all, we all have our price.
F-Cubed
Gyockey,
When you mention "limiting the visibility of technicals" are you referring to the information in the investors section of the copperking website? If you are referring to this, then I can tell you that this information is not current. They provide 2007 financials, however, their future financial projections show production starting in 2007.
F-Cubed
OptionsKing,
I don't know whether or not you are stating the truth or are full of it. However, you do bring a different perspective to this conversation, which I appreciate. Everyone else here is "Rah! Rah! Go CPRK!", and I too hope that in the end this pays off well for all of us investors. However, I have not been to the mine and this is my first venture into, as you call it, the Underworld of penny stocks.
I bought in about 6 weeks ago direct from CopperKing and have shares that are restricted for another 10-1/2 months, so I am in this for a while. And I don't mind riding it out as, at this time, I still think there is a large upside potential here.
I don't know whether or not fundamentals have anything to do with the pps of a pink or not. But I am interested in your perspective on what paying dividends would do to the pps of a pink. If they get into production and pay out a dividend of around $.005-.01 mid-2009, what impact do you think that would have on the price of the stock?
Also, if they did a reverse split to raise the share price for qualification to a "real" stock exchange at the time of the dividend, do you think the positive of the dividend would outweigh the negative views of an R/S?
You claim to have been around for a while and to understand the penny stock world so I am interested in your viewpoint on this.
Thanks.
F-Cubed
From reading other sources on the net, it looks like CPRK has issued a new update on the Float, O/S and A/S. And they have basically maxed out the O/S. Tina, can you contact your source to verify this? Also, I would be interested in any information anyone has on whether or not CPRK has raised all the funding they will need, or will they need to increase the A/S and sell more shares? I certainly hope they will not have to sell more shares, 2.5B is enough for me.
11/20/08
Float:333,228,672
O/S:2,495,432,793
A/S:2,500,000,000
Redvette,
If all they were extracting was copper, CPRK's breakeven point is $1.10 for copper. However, they are also extracting gold, silver, moly, and tungsten so their breakeven point is actually closer to $.50 for copper. The amount of gold and silver they are finding there is actually much higher than is typical for a copper mine, so that really helps with the the profitability projections.
F-Cubed
To Monk and the other Chart experts: What are your charts telling you now? The limit of my chart knowledge shows that the range (high and low) of the stock price over the last 4 days has been steadily going up.
Has the green line crossed the red line, and have we passed the bottom, etc. I don't really know what I'm talking about here , but I am interested in what the chart readers are seeing.
Thanks.
F-Cubed
I just loaded up on another 200,000 shares at .018 and .019
JTF, Thanks for all your valuable posts!
I spoke with my contact at CPRK yesterday and was told a couple of interesting things:
1. They are still on track for a "soft start" on the mill by the end of November. They expect it to take a few weeks to work out any bugs, etc. and they should be up in full production by the first of the year.
2. If all they were extracting from the ore was copper, their breakeven point would be copper selling at $1.10 (it currently is around 1.50). However, with all the other metals that they are getting (silver, gold, moly, etc.), their break even point is way under $1.00 for copper.
It is nice to finally see the stock trending upward!
F-Cubed
I agree with that statement. They were paid to promote CPRK starting on Oct. 10, 2008, and I believe that ended on Nov. 10.
I was also surprised by how quiet the board was today.
F-Cubed
A reverse stock split usually carries with it a negative connotation.
However there are also legitmate reasons for reverse splits as well. One reason would be to get the stock to a higher price per share so that you can move up to a "real" stock exchange, AMEX, etc. From my limited knowledge of this, the different exchanges have rules on the minimum stock price for inclusion in their exchange. There are other rules for inclusion as well, but this would be the one that would most likely apply here.
When a company does a reverse stock split they reduce the number of shares, for example a 5:1 R/S means that for every 5 shares you had, you would now only have 1. And hopefully it would be worth 5 times the price of the old shares. However, because these are often done in attempts to issue more shares and dilute the stock, the price typically drops and your new share would be worth less than 5 times the old share price.
If a company were to do a reverse stock split with the intent to move up to a higher exchange, they would probably have to do something very positive to offset the negativity of a reverse split.
CPRK has announced that it expects to be in a position next summer to pay dividends. That may be just the positive news needed to offset any negativity associated with a reverse split. So if CPRK really wants to do a reverse split, I would expect it to happen in conjuction with a big dividend payment, or some other very positive event.
IMO!