"People are holding onto their wallets right now and it probably has just slowed down the process." Post 9283.

It might be more useful to consider some of the decisive (in my opinion) issues concerning the above comment and how it affects / interacts with the "whys" mentioned by shot.

The license fees might not be considered much by the labels, but they are quite a considerable sum for BLLN, I suggest, together of course with all the other overheads involved. Is the money there? etc, etc.
How much has been raised for this venture over the last many years? I wonder. Has it been enough??!!

Anyone care to make some discreet enquiries about that one?

Yes, thanks GoQ.
I would have thought that BLLN shareholders should certainly benefit from the Qtrax spin off. Shareholders have financed the development of this product through their investments. I don't think it is the case that companies can then just alienate that product by taking it off the inventory and giving it to another corporate structure and raise more funds, with no return to shareholders without legal ramifications. I know it is a free market, but I don't think it is that free.

...or even sooner.

My understanding was that BLLN shareholders would retain their shares and also be allocated shares in Qtrax on around the ratio you mention. I do not know if that is still the intention, if a spin-off goes ahead. There must be detailed discussion and negotiation around this issue by parties reportedly now investing directly in pre-sold Qtrax shares, if that is happening. I think it is something that BLLN shareholders have a right to know about at this point.

It would be great to know the timeframe being offered, and how long the arrangement has been in place.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/081003/clf059.html?.v=101

Good to see all the new funds being raised!

Depends on the licensing fee compared to income I guess.
When are the licensing fees due again - weren't they renewable from around October 2007, or around midem in February? How long for - a year?

http://www.altnet.com/promotions/campaigns/4cc1/about.aspx
About Altnet

"Altnet is a subscription-based service that gives you unlimited access to hundreds of thousands of CD-quality tracks.
For just $19.98/mo, you can download unlimited music files, and play those files on up to 3 PCs that you own. The subscription package is for PC only, which means that you won’t be able to play those files on a portable music player. The files will remain playable while your subscription is active – once your subscription ends, you will no longer be able to play those files...Unlike other music services that charge you every time you download a song, Altnet allows you to listen to as much music as you want for one low monthly fee. This allows you to explore all the music you want without having to pay for every single track or album."

It's not free.

Is this AK's first trip to China recently, or a follow-up?

As far as I can see, investors tend to buy shares in companies that make money; the more money they make, the more the pps goes up.
How much money is Brilliant making through Qtrax right now?
The product may be exceptional, but if it isn't making money...?

Soon.

You're not really a ticking time bomb. The chemical imbalance will probably cause you to be a fizzer - or at least a skyrocket that goes up in a blaze of glory, then comes down as a burnt stick. ;)

Wow. Where did they send *you* - Guantanamo? :)

The proof needs to be not only in the pudding, it needs to be in the pps. Most people here are investors, and their primary concern is a return on that investment, not that the Qtrax player is downloadable or not. If it wasn't downloadable and working, that would be the end of it. The product is a given, it isn't a bonus. The pps needs to go up or this isn't successful.

The dollar figure I have heard is $10 per month surcharge on all internet accounts to compensate the music industry for illegal downloads. Would legal buyers get a discount - no, what gives you that idea?
A surcharge would be legal if a law says it is legal, no problem. But it is moving beyond that now, as apparent in the article posted by GoQ: Big companies are lining up to offer an internet service and included in the package will be free music. Just like subscription television, except that you end up watching ads as well. Despite the myth, subscription services don't mean adfree services.
Qtrax better have a good set of cards from here on in, imo

I want to get really excited by the pps going up,up and up.
But it isn't.

It sure will clutter up the board guys. Please remember that people come to this board primarily to find or post information about the investment aspect of this stock, not to find out what songs are available on Qtrax. People won't be too happy having to read through dozens if not hundreds of posts about what's the latest song available. Please don't do it here, maybe use that other blogspot that someone found, otherwise it could just turn people off coming here or posting stuff if they have to wade through a lot of stuff they are not interested in or which annoys them.

What you say is of course feasible. Fact remains though, that there is a widespread (outside the U.S.) push to have ISPs control / implement a surcharge on music downloads. The labels in some cases, as well as the music industry are taking legal action about to force it, as well as lobbying ISPs and probably government regulators. There isn't much interest in ad-supported models. The article you raised is talking now about another new model which appears to make it even easier.

Are you still KTF, GoQ?

I would have thought that as these sorts of models get up (*if* they get up), makes it that much harder for Qtrax to attract backers - and imo that's a problem. They need to get this up and operating and recognised in the pps imo well before the end of this year, or it might be beam me up scotty.

When do those licenses with the labels have to be renewed again?

Don't forget that earlier this year one of the labels took a court case against a major ISP in Ireland to get them to stop music file transfers. When that piece of news was posted on this board, it was largely dismissed as insignificant. I don't know the outcome of that case, but the argument in the UK and other places has certainly moved on from that to getting a surcharge put on ISP subscription fees to pay for the music industry, and because the structure of the labels are apparently nation-based, you can have a situation where a label in the States will go for an ad-supported model, but the same label in say, the UK, might be going for an ISP surcharge model. Imo, the only people who seem to get really excited about ad-based models are people in the U.S., "customers" elsewhere seem to dismiss it. If the advertisers see an opportunity that makes a big difference, but not if the ground has already been occupied by surcharging ISPs. Simple really.

Yes, he is positive about it, but he is talking about how it is going to be funded i.e. through a new ISP service (where presumably part of your subscription fee might be a surcharge for music downloads), together with whatever other funds are contributed by big players like Virgin or Nokia to use the examples quoted in the article.
It's about the funding model to make P2P pay.
This sort of model (an ISP-based one) might be seen by big companies like Virgin or Nokia to add value and recognition to their brand by looking after the music industry, much like what McDonalds and other companies might do for various community charities. Qtrax can be the same thing, but they had better seal some deals in a big hurry, if they are thinking about it at all!

Isn't the article saying that Virgin is teaming up with PlayLouder to provide a legal P2P download service in conjunction with their own subscription internet service? If so, that seems to be a new model, trying to get around the problem of getting existing ISPs to charge their customers a surcharge for music file transfers - or sending out warning letters. (See the other links to articles at the bottom of the article.) Getting ISPs to ban their file sharing customers or getting all customers to pay a surcharge on their internet subscription to pay for the music industry seems to be the way musicians and others are trying to get the issue of piracy dealt with, it seems to me, mainly in the UK and other places outside of the U.S. I don't hear this way of dealing with the problem emanating from the U.S., but from other places. The ad-based formula doesn't seem to get much coverage outside the U.S., it seems to me. Maybe that's what's behind Qtrax only being available at present in the U.S. I was shocked when I saw a media forum in recent months talk about piracy, attended by a lot of music industry reps, artists, regulators, etc, and no mention whatsoever was made about the ad-supported model, but almost totally about a surcharge on ISP subscriptions to deal with it. A lot of the rest of the western world is into government regulation to deal with problems like this, and don't rely on market forces like ad-supported models, imo.

So the idea seems to be that the P2P access is "free" and legal - provided you are using this company's internet connection service. Seems significant that this PlayLouder P2P platform has been around for five years with apparently the same goal as Qtrax, but they haven't gone down the licensing route. Virgin appears to be interested in using the model maybe in partnership with other funders as a branding exercise.
Wouldn't they still have the issues of getting the go-ahead from labels (who haven't given Qtrax the P2P go-ahead apparently), and then there's the issue of negotiating the amount payable to labels, as well as the sufficiency of funds to do that. This seems to me to be a sort of test-case as to whether the amount of money on offer outweighs any qualms the labels might have with allowing P2P, rather than, or in conjunction with server-based licensed recordings.

In any case, it seems to be competition for Qtrax - which is mentioned in the article, as I read it, in the context of Qtrax being somewhat restricted in comparison with this model.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it; but AK better come up with the goods very soon, or there are going to be players out there all over the field - very soon.

I'll tell you nothing buddy. If you want to put your own ego forward all the time with smart comments, be prepared to get the flak.

What you did was stupid, amateurish and egotistical. If you invest like you behave, God help you. Grow up or get off the board, and stop wasting space, you have nothing constructive to say, apart from what occurs to your own ego.

Say something meaningful other than what *you* consider to be entertaining then you'd get more respect. Are you the one who posted all those various comments on that journalist's blogsite talking up the stock using pseudonyms from this board, then got caught out because they all came from the same internet address. Was that meant to be entertaining or productive? Unfortunately it was neither.
Grow up.

You thought there'd be a flurry of posts? Why? I guess you guessed wrong.
Maybe the damage was done long ago and posters got sick of reading all the junk that has been tipped on this board, and found other sources. Congratulations and well done on this magnificent outcome, not!

Now that is amusing, at least. A waste of time, but amusing nonetheless.

That's what I mean. Why would I want to post info for you, when you like to give out smart comments.
There's a big difference between a good sense of humour and a smart guy. Grow up.
Thanks for telling me there is nothing going on though, but if the board is anything to go by that's pretty obvious.
Thankfully not everyone is relying on the board are they - in your opinion.

It is a bit ironic isn't it that the people who know a lot about this don't post here because when they read the top posters, there is, as you say only junk. Why would anyone want to post good information in that circumstance? What would they get in return? Junk? Prolly. Why waste time? The people who know stuff won't post because they know you won't be able to tell them anything they don't already know. Adds up doesn't it.It's all about supply and demand don't you think?

One other thing too, prompted by TC's post - those who are posting this stuff, I suggest have a look at the posters who do not post the same stuff. You have readers from other countries, probably many readers and many countries, not just the U.S.
At least stop to think what you are making people think of you and your country.
There are people on this board who wouldn't dream of posting that sort of smut - they have too much class and good upbringing, that includes the readers from Europe and U.S. and anywhere else. If you can't see that, then you have big gap in your perceptions. Not all the readers here are from your particular background, that includes those in the U.S. and/or Canada.
Got the picture yet?

I know you didn't mean it was serious. Others may think so though, or want to make it so.

I read the post that got shot kicked off the board, and I would have been surprised if he had not been. I wish people who posted this stuff got a bigger view of the world other than their own perceptions of what they think the stereotypical person out there is like. The language was offensive, but most of all it is a waste of time when all these sorts of posts are put together. It degrades the purpose of the forum, and makes people who are not like this reluctant to post information. I think you have to demonstrate by your language and behaviour that you are worth sharing valuable information with. You will attract the sort of communication that you give out - and that works in the negative as well. If you post smutty vapid sort of language, that's who you will attract - and you will all be none the wiser. Duh! Other people who aren't like that and who may have good information will not want to communicate with you or waste their time even looking at the board because there is nothing useful being said.

I wish people who post this would realise quickly that this sort of language does not shock people, it just makes them stop contributing. People have been around for a lot longer than some people think - seen it, heard it all before. It's just boring to read smut, and a waste of time if that's what the board becomes.
To all those who think they are delivering shocks with dirty language or imagery, I say: Grow up. And/or shut up.
It's not funny, not shocking - just boring.

He has not deleted any posts because they are not in English, so he has not done anything to discriminate. He has asked if posts could please be kept to English.
I am very thankful because I do not know any other language, so if important information is posted in another language I will miss it.

Nice to hear, wth. Thank you for your input.

Nice summary, GoQ, and all true. I have no problem with what you are saying, and as always, great information.

To answer your question, my expectation, and I think most other investors was that when all these things were accomplished, the pps would show a significant increase. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened.

What do you think is going to make the pps go up, if all this has not? Only a buyout / spin off?
The obvious answer is that the price will go up a lot when there is a lot more buying volume than selling volume.
So I guess the more pertinent question is - What is going to make investors buy this stock, given that all the cards are probably on the table now, and still the buying hasn't started?

Yeah, the heat's really on there. A big wake up call.

I just think we need to separate what we (and the sources talking to our posters) might be expecting and hoping for from the actual reality of what is happening right now.

We've been envisioning, imagining all these announcements, a seamless customer experience at the player interface, followed immediately by a surging pps going through .30 up to whatever plateaus then pushing on to five bucks! Some of us have been backing up the trucks maybe on the strength of this vision, rather than the actual situation or even the worst case scenario. Everyone is waiting for a hollywood ending with Qtrax. Me included.

I love that phrase 'worst case scenario'. It is always used as the most unlikely situation, but it seems that that is the scenario that eventuates a lot of the time. 'Worst case scenario' doesn't seem to mean 'very unlikely scenario'.

Again, I still find myself wondering what the plan and strategy is from here for Qtrax. I'm not entirely sure there is an unequivocal way forward sorted out yet. If not, why not?

The basis of a good product is there, but it doesn't seem to be finished yet, nor monetised to the extent that it needs to be. All that points up to me anyway, a target ripe for a buyout, but I'm not sure about the strength of the negotiating position, and the longer this goes on in a half-developed fashion, maybe the worse that is for the negotiating position.

As I thought months ago, this is going to take a lot longer than "soon". I usually multiply the timeframes that I hear by a factor of 5 or 6 with this stock. Early in the year I heard a few weeks, a few months, and now I am hearing six months or more. I don't hold my breath with this matter even though the player is now operating.

I hope I'm wrong though and there's a big hollywood ending coming up 'soon'. The 'worst case scenario' seems to me that there isn't a hollywood ending, the pps stays around these levels, but that a buyout or spin off happens, as long as the financial situation holds up long enough for that to happen.

The apparent lack of urgency in getting the remaining matters sorted out suggests to me that there is some other timeframe operating in people's minds at blln. Imo, that is probably around a spin off / buyout. If that's the case, it could take a considerable time to achieve that depending on what format it is to be done in. The six months to a year time frame already mentioned a few posts ago might be right.

It is great that we are able to get the sort of information that is being posted, but it sounds to me a little like conjecture on the part of the sources talking with our posters. I guess it can't be much else, in any event, but I have a few reservations about it, and whether blln-1 also thinks that (simply because the information sounds to me like it is coming from down the hierarchy somewhere, maybe even at operational level.)

If it is generally correct though, because of the variations in it, I would think there is some uncertainty in blln as to the way forward right now, since the pps hasn't moved up. I think midem caused a lot of collateral damage which is still being reflected in the pps even though there seems to be a partial launch. I don't think this situation is sustainable for six months to a year while a spin off / buyout is talked about. Maybe it is though, who knows?

Thanks for all the posts though. Much appreciated.

Do you think this is blln-1's view too?

ok, let's do the sums. There are 600M shares issued right? (Someone please confirm.) If this was to be a buyout, the price would be determined at pps wouldn't it? If say, 0.05 cents per share, x 600M, that gives $30M. Would a big player pay that for Qtrax? Thing is, that the shares are in BLLN, not Qtrax, so they'd be buying out BLLN wouldn't they? Would they want to buyout out BLLN? Maybe not, they'd probably only want Qtrax. So, wouldn't this mean that Qtrax must be spun off. Very important imo - how...long...is...it...going...to take to organise a spin off. Two days, two years, or 'soon'?
How would a spun-off Qtrax be valued? Current pps, revenue actual or potential? Obviously, the higher the pps the greater the buyout price. So sooner is better for a buyer, but at current pps maybe not so good for shareholders, isn't it? What would a corporate buyer be prepared to pay for Qtrax at the moment - $30M, $200M? (bearing in mind the licensing deals in place and apparently yet to be announced.)

Thanks, GoQ. We haven't really seen the financial benefits at all. Given all the developments in recent times, plus now the downloads, and we still have not seen an upward movement in the pps, what do you think it is going to take to move the pps? (Up, that is.)
Seems to me either this business model has to start earning a lot of money for blln and/or a buyout is hoped for.
What's the plan? Is there one?