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The JPS would do well to take your advice...seriously.
They have a one sided theory, pholosophy.
Commons posters are discussing possibilities, JPS are discussing their flavor of the day, as sure as the sun rises and sets, god given and undeniable outcome, based on?.....
The FHFA is going to have a tougher time giving the GSE's earnings away for socialized affordable housing with rates this high. Fewer will be buying, builders are already pulling back because many are opting to wait until a major change in rates and home prices. Yet there are those (crazies) saying everything is perfect! Lol
yeah his court room Latin impresses the living crap out of me! NOT. I was an alter boy many years ago, when they still did Latin mass, so my Latin understanding is not lacking. The JPS will be screaming pari passu when common value is where it should be after release and JPS price is languishing at about 1/3rd of their touted par value and yet without any dividend.
Whoa whoa whoa, hold up a second there little buddy. You need to take a step back and understand one fundamental concept. Treasury has the right to own 79.9% of the commons and commons alone. The JPS aren't touched. You seem to think that commons and JPS are pari passu. They are not. Hence why JPS are "preferred" shares. This 'preference' places the JPS in line in front of commons for recovery purposes.
If we are zero, then so is JPS. It's not a bankruptcy though, never has been. A taking, plain and simple. How many times has it been stated that commons/JPS own the approx 20.1% and government seniors and warrants the other 79.9% ?
You can not be 20.1% of zero. Government can not be 100% of 79.9% without adding the liability to the debt. The conservatorship has had fraudulent agreements take place, which are being challenged and may yet still be challenged.
The restructure began in 2008, and is approx 100 billion to date. The capital rule will be lowered - watch. This is not a typical bankruptcy, nor restructure. It never was a bankruptcy, or, like all other bankruptcy's a judge would have been appointed. The GSE's never filed for bankruptcy, neither chapter 7 or 11, so pushing this uphill as being a restructured bankruptcy or whatever you guys are deeming it now a days, is incorrect, big time. Government has stated shareholders own 20.1% and I've seen absolutely zero from any reputable source saying commons are zero and JPS ate rich, or vice versa.
The guy is as sanctimonious as they come! He has no idea .
Yeah, everyone needs to climb aboard the Bradford Titanic, while KT and man with no name keep directing the band and rearranging the deck chairs. Lmao
One difference, the snake oil salesman in the old westerns was always easily made to fold up shop and giddy up chased out of town. 🤔
Sarcasm... 👍
Yep, that's for sure. We have the best government everyone's money can buy! Let's start making them wear those Nascar type suits, where the biggest patch represents their biggest campaign contributors or lobbyist. At least then we'd have a little transparency on Cspan or at those televised congress and senate blab sessions.
The more patches, the more you're bought like a cheap hooker.
Thanks Rick and Trunk for getting us some payback, lmao
Months?????? Oh you child of yesterday! Lol
The plantiff's will not be debating on whether to pursue further money gain because it will only take months.
I think you're getting it now, bravo!
We could go the opposite direction though , if we get in front of an honest judge. JMHO
Yeah, Exactly. He assigns it a zero percent probability. That's not trying to influence at all, Eh? Lmao. You guys keep shooting yourselves in the foot.
How about I'm going to start saying there's zero percent probability that JPS survive. Or ever get a dividend, or ever reach par? I'll just state that as fact, like KT does. Guess what though? He has no frickin idea, like the rest of us.
Anyone here can make a strategic assumption for or against their own guess at what will happen, but pushing and selling your rhetoric on others as facts by using partial quotes, old books by old FHFA heads, AIG case you see as similarities from long ago, all of this nonsense is nothing but your supposition, or your manipulated by others belief on what will happen and is God send, carved in stone.
Others here have varying perspectives and are way more open minded to the situation. We are not pushing bankruptcy fallacies, restructure fallacies (it's been going on for 15 years,!) Cram down fallacies. I don't deny anything is possible, but stop the pushing down the throat of others that just because you have conviction about a particular outcome, does not mean at all that something different or far different can happen. In other words, quit spoon feeding those who don't want your BS THEORY'S
The problem is those who are stating THEIR opinion as fact. They mislead with their constant dogmatism, partial quotes of entire paragraphs that need to be read in whole for correct context, which is much like what the terrible MSM places do. See definition below.
contextomy or quote mining) is an informal fallacy in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.
Agree. No one knows. You can guess, but those commenting here, with the intention of misleading by acting as if they are stating facts, will be challenged by those of us who have been here, and realize there are no outcomes that are impossible or implausible.
There are many people in DC dead set against Rich Hedge funds theory. These are mostly on one side of the aisle. I don't see that specific issue/calculus changing at all, no matter the election or political outcomes. Biden just proved he's against the car companies CEO's and their pay, so you can bet he's 110% behind not making hedge funds rich on this.
I'm sure there are more than a few hedge funds in JPS with the drum beat here against commons. They're hoping that if enough retail investors like us get into JPS, the government will okay the get rich quick plans they keep pushing.
I understand the process and they why for's...it's just not right though.
The FHFA was chartered in the DC swamp and are, by appearances, nationalized owners of the GSE's, so why should it matter where the state law and location is, as far as the businesses and where they WERE chartered? A good judge would have said the FHFA and treasury caused this harm, and assumed all rights, so anything should go as far as award and interest in my view. If DC dealt unfairly, then establish or use law precedence for DC swamp, leave the GSE's charter state laws out of it.
I digress though....we really don't want Lamberth deciding anything to do with a reward in this. He was probably the worst court you could have possibly wanted to end up at with this case.
All I know is these guys thinking that those sales flyer prospectus, for the different GSE prefs, being untouchable is very nieve with how courts have been ruling.
If AIG failed they would have most likely been sold to one of tge bigger banks. Tge govenment would have stepped in to back whatever insurances were in place, but would have exacted a major repayment from the banks, just like 2008
Again, you state two DIFFERENT, not exact explanations of a partial story. That does not make AIG or GSE's situations isentical. Never were, was or will be. If similar, as you state. Why then are we in this conservatorship for 15 years? Was AIG in conservatorship? And I don't want to hear they were in similar, that's a bunch of bull. Was AIG hibdered by HERA? Did AIG need congress, FHFA and treasury to do something, anything to release back to public? Were there as many court presedences set with the AIG cases as there have been with the GSE's? Does AIG have outstanding incriminating presidential documents hidden by the courts? Did AIG raise 100 billion of its own capital? AIG insured period, the GSE's packaged, funded loans via government, with a backing by government, also provided affordable housing mandates and watched the banks for loan disclosures, credit scores, etc lots of stuff...so these both are identical businesses, correct? Is AIG spelt GSE?
I've taken it from the complicated to the most simplistic (last question) , show me an exact similarity.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. Quit cherry picking partial lines of text. You must read it ALL in context.
This is why YOUR OPINIONS are worth garbage.
You are not scotus, you are not a judge, and I highly doubt you are a lawyer. You can not say those contracts for JPS are bulletproof. Any idiot realizes they are not bulletproof just based on how judges are interpreting HERA. If government lawyers want to parse each individual word of those contracts to have a different meaning, they can. Hera over rides those contracts with the simple clause that FHFA ASSUMES ALL SHAREHOLDERS RIGHTS.
Structural paralells, another JPS made up term? You guys must stay up late thinking these terms up.
There are no paralells other than government being involved. Quit making things up. AIG is not a GSE by a long shot
You do notice you provide two DIFFERENT AIG and GSE fiascos? Why did you not just say blah, blah blah AIG and GSE:s are exactly, beyond a shadow of a doubt, even considering court cases and everything else, exactly the same, by golley, exactly! Letter for letter. No difference in market, business, takeover, charter, etc, etc, etc.
Lmao. You are truly hopeless if you think that AIG and GSE'S are the same in what they do, how they were taken over, everything. They are no way in hell the same. If AIG failed, life would have gone on, if the GSE'S failed you would have had something like 24% of our economy in upheaval.
Keep convincing yourself, I don't think you're convincing anyone here except KT, Bradford and which ever alias Pages in under.
When? How? Where? Based on whose verification? Provide the solid facts or state as YOUR OPINION.
AIG is like bass-terd redheaded little boy caught stealing candy, the GSE's are like Leonidas I.
There are no similarities to how both were took over, nor any similarities if either were allowed to fail. AIG does nothing similar to the GSE's. Its apples to watermellon comparison, and those trying to push it as the same are intellectually thought challenged.
DaJester, I've said it before, the guy is all double talk, obfuscation and partial quotes to push an agenda.
Why are folks getting comfy with warrants being exercised?
- they've been paid far in excess
- the warrants were insurance, not an investment.
What will keep them from pulling another conservatorship on the GSE'S 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years from release when they are hard up for cash all over again?
Advocating for warrant exercise is like letting the rapist come back for seconds, insane.
If you were government, and made off with about 90 billion in GSE capital in 2008, to rescue a bunch of under handed banks, but then realized 90 billion was not enough... how much capital would you want the GSE's to have for the next theft/bail out?
The governments suits against the banks were a joke, pennies on the dollar. GSE capital was used to cover the brunt of the malfeasance. If you look up what banks paid up until now, 321 billion. Is it coincidence the GSE'S have been robbed of 320 billion + 90? Where is all that money?
321+320+90=731 billion, dam near 3/4 of a trillion dollars. Yet the current administration managed to add like 3-4 trillion to our debt? Lol lmao.
Yeah, those dreaming that there is no spending problem in DC are holding a gun to our nations head by voting for fiscally irresponsible people, so they can get their big screen. I expect more downgrades to the US credit worthiness.
Yeah, nothing like what's going on now. Sadly
We're any shares bought or sold at that price? If not, then just a hiccup
Agreed, BOD is nothing but a bunch of rubber stamping puppets. But once released, government will load up the BOD with options, money, bonus's to do the governments bidding.
Lamberth was way wrong. The damages are felt even unto today and as long as the bass-terd step child liquidation preference exists.
Beautiful piece of paper!!!
In those three numbered part clauses of the preferred shares contracts, the BOD (company) has the right to do a whole lot of hurt if they want to. It's like that for a reason. Preferreds were never meant to be ownership, but only an indebtor that is owed money back and nothing else. So the companies/BOD have a lot of control and say so over their shares. Those saying the contracts cant be ignored or changed need to read those three parts I posted. It specifically says they can and it's only necessary to get the class owners buy ins (votes) for certain things. Other uncertainties can be used to drive government to amend all the preferred shares contracts. The contracts are not untouchable or gospel as some here keep misleading. Loads of possibilities exist in those three clauses, based on how current courts are functioning.
This is from series "O", read carefully.
6. No Pre-Emptive Rights.
No Holder of Series O Preferred Stock shall be entitled as a matter of right to subscribe for or purchase, or
have any pre-emptive right with respect to, any part of any new or additional issue of stock of any class whatsoever,
or of securities convertible into any stock of any class whatsoever, or any other shares, rights, options or other
securities of any class whatsoever, whether now or hereafter authorized and whether issued for cash or other
consideration or by way of dividend.
7.
(b) Without the consent of the Holders of Series O Preferred Stock, Fannie Mae will have the right to
amend, alter, supplement or repeal any terms of this Certificate or the Series O Preferred Stock (1) to cure any
ambiguity, or to cure, correct or supplement any provision contained in this Certificate of Designation that may be
defective or inconsistent with any other provision herein or (2) to make any other provision with respect to matters
or questions arising with respect to the Series O Preferred Stock that is not inconsistent with the provisions of this
Certificate of Designation so long as such action does not materially and adversely affect the interests of the Holders
of Series O Preferred Stock; provided, however, that any increase in the amount of authorized or issued Series O
Preferred Stock or the creation and issuance, or an increase in the authorized or issued amount, of any other class or
series of stock of Fannie Mae, whether ranking prior to, on a parity with or junior to the Series O Preferred Stock, as
to the payment of dividends or the distribution of assets upon dissolution, liquidation or winding up of Fannie Mae,
8. Additional Classes or Series of Stock.
The Board of Directors of Fannie Mae, or a duly authorized committee thereof, shall have the right at any
time in the future to authorize, create and issue, by resolution or resolutions, one or more additional classes or series
of stock of Fannie Mae, and to determine and fix the distinguishing characteristics and the relative rights,
preferences, privileges and other terms of the shares thereof. Any such class or series of stock may rank prior to, on
a parity with or junior to the Series O Preferred Stock as to the payment of dividends or the distribution of assets
upon dissolution, liquidation or winding up of Fannie Mae, or otherwise.
Here's what I know...
Every quarter we retain more money, it changes our situation.
Every new FHFA head has different priorities, it changes our situation.
Every treasury head has different priorities, it changes our situation.
Every 6-18 months the housing market has changed or goes through change, it changes our situation.
Every presidential election or midterm election changes the political calculus in this, it most definitely changes our situation.
Every court that's been involved in this, the majority of them have blown our minds with convoluted irrational rulings most would not have thought possible, it sadly and unjustly changes our situation.
The last case with the win in Lamberth's court was a positive, but not a true win as far as what was expected, but yes, it changes our situation.
Bankruptcy never was seriously considered, only threatened, and lots of folks now realize that would have been a very bad move and outcome. We are SIFI/TBTF, the realization of this, years ago, absolutely changed and continues to change our situation.
There are still many hidden documents that could expose facts and could definitely change our situation.
So anyone claiming "they know based on facts" is bull pucky. The facts keep changing, events keep changing. No one can predict how, what, why, or when this ends. We'll all know when it happens. All the thesis's are unprovable dreams and will be until a solid move is made.
Have you actually read the JPS contracts. Pretty sure all have a clause saying the companies and BOD have the right to modify the contracts at any time due to uncontrolled events.
JPS should read that brief area and really think on it, what it means and the multitude of options it gives the BOD (actually government stooges). You are blinded by a contract claim talking point, but have not parsed that contract and the numerous ways a court would interpret it. I've read 4 of the flyer contracts and they are all pretty much the same. They no way ceed complete power over the companies by the holder of the contract. There's tons of loopholes.
There's a very good reason why Warren Buffett fully terminated his preferred position in FNMA. You want to think you know better than him,?
Lamberth is FOS on that quote of his. It took the market time to divulge and decipher the NWS. As more was learned and many legal minds and business people chimed in, the prices sank. So Lamebrain Lamberth knows jackschitz about investing or investments