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Good question
I suppose it would all boil down to presumptiveness. I mean, if your negotiating with somebody, you make a mistake if you presume they know something. There's no point in telling them everything. They just might not know as much as you assumed they did, so keep your cards close to your vest and watch their eyes, i guess.
Anyway, negotiations isn't two guys trying to figure out how to screw each other. Negotiations is figuring out the details of how you can trust each other.
ImperialWhazoo
Hey arch -
I tried to tell everybody back in my first post (12342) that logicall, BIGN wouldnt be releasing press releases during the time of the negotiations of the LOIs for exactly the reason you state here.
I said "Continuing on this line of reasoning, it further follows that a paucity of press releases would accompany the attempt to keep the LOI deals separate. After all, if you pop press releases in abundance informing a party with whom you are negotiating that there are things of considerable value that they could demand as part of the deal, it would be logical that BIGN would release few, if any, meaningful press releases during the timeframe during which negotiations are underway."
I'm vain just like everybody else so somehow its just pleasing to read your post and realize that I at least got that part of it right.
Sounds like you had a real heart to heart and I'm delighted by the tone of your post.
Keep your armour on. You've got many enemies on this board.
ImperialWhazoo
Sittin here listnin' to the BBC Radio 3, warching the board, and doin my scannin for tomorrow...
Hey cuban,
The chart pattern is testing out a double bottom with this leg being on lower volume than the volume it showed on the 16th. 8/16 it touched .0175 and rejected it, on 4.387 million volume. Today it tested .018 on 2.476 million volume.... 43.5% less volume, baby! If they can't push it down, they'll push it up.
Watch the volumes when it tests the bottom. So far, it behaves like it wants to go up at the first opportunity.
Check you 5 minute candles on 8/16.... the support was there. Buyers came out of the underbruch in spades at the .0175 & .018 level. Check your 5 minute candles for 8/15 during the last hour of trading and check the first hour on the 16th.
So, watch it closely when it tests the bottoms and the chart pattern itself will tell you which way the wind is blowing.
ImperialWhazoo
I am looking at my real time charts and suggest folks who can do so look at the period between 2:30 PM on 8/15/06 and 9 AM on 8/16/06. I'm using 5 minute candles.
What I see happening on today's chart is a declining price chart, testing out a double bottom, on declining volume. The previous part of this double bottom test happened the end of the 8/15 trading day & the beginning of the 8/16 trading day. It reached .0175 and bounced. There was not any news that day. Lancaster had sent out a puff piece on 8/9 to reassure everybody, but nothing on 8/15 or 8/16. Or 8/14 either.
So, in my opinion, we are watching a testing of the .0175 bottom of 8/16. Look back at the 5 minute candles on the days I'm referring to. There was strong support at the .0175 - .018 level. Since there wasn't any news, this was just what it looks like: natural support. So, unless there is a penetration of the .0175 level on strong downthrusting volume, this chart is setting up for a retest of the old intermediate highs: at a bare minimum .024 without any news and probably .035 with news.
Thats what it looks like to me from a technical analysis point of view.
Imperial Whazoo
Hey zigbee -
How do we know that the decline rates on well that have NOT been slotted are the same as those that have been slotted?
For a brief technical description of hydroslotting, check this link: http://www.energy.psu.edu/swc/proposals/2005/Hydroslotter.pdf
If the explanation there is true, then the decline curve ought to be less acute.
Also, I print all the articles I can find because they disppear off of Yahoo. One such, http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050705/55551.html
is not now still available so let me quote from it:
Garry Kelley, former CEO of BIGN said "For example, in another well close to the target well, jet perforating fifty (50) feet of productive formation resulted in 200 MCFD. Hydroslotting only fifteen (15) feet of the same zone in our target well has achieved preliminary results that are four to five times greater".
So, what might happen is that... MAYBE hydroslotted wells that begin to decline can be reworked to a greater depth-of-fracture or something like that. If 50 ft is being done in that field using other technologies, it isn't too far fetched to see that declining wells can be reworked repeatedly up to similar depths (ie, 2 more times if they only do 15 ft the first time.). So, again, due to a lack of knowledge, noone really knows what the life expectance of a hydroslotted well in this field is going to be.
ImperialWhazoo
You are right on, spiras. Thats my point in the one of my posts late last night. If the LOI Aug 31 expires, the initial reaction may be for the stock to plummet but, just as you said, we are looking at wells with production and ata host of nearby eligible wells. If it plummets, swoop in and buy!
One thing that is apparent from the table you so kindly included is that the decline rate is pretty pronounced. If this decline rate is typical, then production will not last as long as projected.
However, with all the wells in this field, it is less important that the reworked wells have a steep decline curve because, if the cost remains low to slot them, the payout is still mighty compelling.
Good body of work, spiras
ImperialWhazoo
Your right for the short term. In terms of chart patern analysis, it appears all the sellers are drying up. If they can't push it down, they will push it up.
ImperialWhazoo
Hey arch -
1st time we chat.
Heres the thing about the compressor (or what I know today). Hydroslotting apparently involves a proprietary downhole tool that involves high pressure (hence the compressor). Hydro means water. So, I suppose that the compressor is essential to make Hydroslotter's tool actually work. And what happens (probably) is that the well bore gets prepared, the new pipe laid in and punctured at the appropriate depths. Then they "probably" use relatively standard fracturing techniques used elsewhere in the industry to create some fractures where the seismic says they should. Then they drop in their tool and position it so as to jet high pressure liquids of some sort into the fractures. According to my file (I've printed out every article & press release I can find) on BIGN, Hydroslotting, WW, Tyche, Rubicon and so on, the key to hydroslotting is that the new "enhanced" fracture zones run VERTICALLY within the fractures PLUS.... and this is key..... the particulate matter that is typically a problem (because the flotsom & sand & rocks tend to clog up the holes in the casing)... the hydroslotting tool forces all the crud to extreem end points of the fractures and thus enables a better flow of hydrocarbons. Also, the enhanced fractures are deeper and they are vertical. And, the long precicted life of the reworked wells is directly attributable to the technique of forcing the clogging matrerial to the extreem end zones of the fracture.
Anyway, that is why it does in fact matter the Schlumberger and Hydroslot have a relationship that is inseperable.
Now, I'd seriously doubt that Baker Hughes or Grey Wolf or Grifco or whoever who competes with Schluberger in the rig and the proprietary tool arenas don't have compressors and rigs and so on. But, thats for management to decide. Lancaster & Bonhomme and their equivelents in each company is expected to make the best decision on relationships such as that between Hydroslotter & Schlumberger.
For my liking, I always like to have a Plan B, so I'm personally much more comfortable having Schlumberger as the primary but also going ahead and lining up alternative sources if possible. But, again, thats what management gets paid to do and we all should just be informed, but let them get about this unhindered.
I do think it might be something somebody might weigh in on... are there alternative sources for rigs equipped with compressors? If so who are thay? Anybody out there on the board know?
Now, if Schlumberger is the sole vendor with the necessary equipment, then BIGN & Hydroslotter are constrained by Schlumberger: Growth of slotted wells may actually be constrained by this situation and it may be that BIGN management needs to address this, explaining whether, if fact, the speed of doing wells is constrained by the necessity of scheduling that Schlumberger controls due to the fact that they are the only drilling contractor who has the necessary compressors. I'd be really surprised if nobody else could serve as an alternate source for rigs with the needed compressors.
As to your idea that BIGN would be best served by controlling its own fate by having both main rigs and thos=e rigs they will get if the Aug 31 LOI is successful, you are right on. If they had all their own equipment, it would be a dream situation because they would not have to arrange their pace of progress with Schlumberger being the constraining factor.
Imperial Whazoo
I didn't ever say I was here to inform anyone. Anyway, there a some people who couldn't find their ass with both hands.
What happened, easy... Arch go home so now you're trolling for someone else to pick a pointless fight with? Go to sleep, easy. Thats what I'm gonna do.
like i DID, in fact actually say earlier.... goodnight Miss Calabash, wherever you are....
Sweet dreams easy... sweet dreams
If the LOI expires, they will be out legal fees & earnest money but the plus side is they will not have the income stream from Grimes tied up (yet, anyway).
So,they can complete #3, then #4, start on some others, announce a name change, announce the $2000000 they say is streaming in, paint a rosey picture, lick their wounds and try again, this time, wiser and stronger.
The stock will plunge on the missed LOI, and SWOOP.... here come the Imperial Whazoo!!! Gotcha.... cheap lil ol shares.... cha Ching!!
Imperial Whazoo
OK. Say something happens to the tool downhole. They fish it out. Its damaged. What then. Are there enough extra tools to meet a need such as this?
ImperialWhazoo
Right on cuban. They did an LOI. The man fell ill. The LOI got stretched out and stretched out. The price of oil rose throughout that time. Getting the seller to sit still for the original terms when prices are on the zoom ought to be hard, self-evidently.
ImperialWhazoo
Well.. I inda cheated and checked the board again..
hey futr, you saying that the equipment from Schlumberge (Schlumberger's compressor) is essential and there is no substitute? So, there is no way of ever separating the company from Schlumberger. They are a kind of ball & chain which means that the number of wells that can be slotted is limited by availability of equipment from Schlumberger?
Can Hydroslotter and/or BIGN train more that one team of roughnecks or is there only one team and there will always be only one team for the forseeable future?
ImperialWhazoo
Well, now that we know that there aren't going to be pictures like there were last time, and now that we know that he was intercepted before he could even get out of his car, I think I'll go over to stockfetcher,com and do my scanning for tomorrow AM.
All this pushing on BIGN has gotten them mad and now they are acting to close out off every access point. The way it will come down is the wells will complete or they won't... the LOIs will go thru or they won't. As of this moment, anyone still on board either holds his cards or folds them. All this hand wringing is frankly embarrassing.
I'm off to find other things to buy and sell.
"Goodnight Miss Calabash, wherever you are." Jimmy Durante
I'm outta here.
Thanks for quoting me Joe (msg# 12590).
Thats what I was trying to convey... the LOI gets them rigs but not rigs for Hydroslotting. Wotkover rigs... and not new ones at that
ImperialWhazoo
The last time I called Tyler, I pretty much got a thumb stuck in my eye. My reason for going to such great lengths to type all these out is to let somebody else pick up where I've had to leave off. If anybody thinks these questions need answers, feel free to carry the water bucket for the rest of us. I'm not the right guy. They have gotten rather tired of my "unnecessarily probing and pushy questions".
So, call then yourself,. I won't be successful. I've probably already worn out my welcome.
ImperialWhazoo
Nice question easyultra -
In one of my many conversations with the good folks at the 416 number, I asked just that question. Here's what I was told.
1. They don't appear to have access to any good rigs other than leasing them from Schlumberge.
2. When I asked about what kind of rigs came as a part of the LOI, I was told that they were work-over rigs and that they were not suitable to substitute for the ones they are having to lease from Schlumberge.
So, I suppose that, despite the fact that there are rigs in the Aug 31 LOI deal, it doesn't necessarily enable BIGN to increase the number of wells they can hydroslot.
Another thing is that I was also told in one of my telecons was that BIGN was afraid of partnering too closely with people like Schlumberge or any other drilling contractor. First off, they were afraid of having the technology that makes hydroslotting what it is serve as a schoolhouse to teach these bigger companies how to copy-cat hydroslotting. So, BIGN is having to tread lightly to preserve the value of hydroslotting itself. Second, I was told that they were repeatedly faced with property owners (and probably contractors) who wanted a piece of the action in some unspecified undesirable way. I didn't pursue this and nothing more on it was offered. The idea seemed to be that they could probably cut Schlumberge or whoever in on deals except that they might end up creating their own competition and that the chunk of flesh being demanded in exchange for a greater availability to rigs was not worth the price.
Finally, the availability of rigs is one thing but apparently there are too few trained teams to man rigs even if they had more rigs.
Imperial Whazoo
Hey patiencepays -
I've been reading backwards now for over an hour and 'cause I saw your post this AM when I did my first read thru.
I think you have some solid questions.
- What is going on with the Charring cross deal? GOOD QUESTION.
- Why did Paul Smith state in December that they were being inundated with calls to use THEIR hydroslotter technology when hydroslotter is a subcontractor? GOOD QUESTION.
- Whats going on with the Lake Eire Rubicon Petroleum properties that we aquired? GOOD QUESTION.
Here's something related to these 3 that I wonder about:
Does anybody out there have any idea how much property is actually in the portfolio as candidates for hydroslotting? Does anybody know haow much propertey is not a candidate for hydroslotting? We have relationships (and hence presumably access to slottable properties) via WW, some via Rubicon, presumably access to some via Tyche.... and presumably some in Grimes? So, here they are trying to add a portfolio of properties via LOIs in East Texas & West Texas.... At what point is there going to be some kind of overall picture of the holdings.... and when will it be explained what constitutes a legitimate candidate for slotting? How large actually is the universe of available properties to which BIGN already has an established relationship?
If the Rubicon & the WW & the Grimes & the Tyche relationships gave them access to enough candidate properties to do that PR that had them doing 20 wells a month.... why all this slathering and all this "hot and bother" to bulk up by obtaining all these properties in East & West Texas via all the LOIs? Why do we need to be focusing on these LOIs if the relationships we alraedy know about provide enough opportunities to slot 20 wells a month?
Any ideas out there?
ImperialWhazoo
To get an overview of how there deals typically get done, check out an article in the current issue od Oil & Gas Financial Journal
http://www.ogfj.com/display_article/261808/ARTCL/none/Reserve-based_lending_markets:_from_projects_t...
FYI
ImperialWhazoo
Hey Waverider -
ASPN looks like a good little oil company. Nice post, man.
ImperialWhazoo
Actually, I omitted a detail buttressing my speculation on the Frankfurt thing. About a year ago (because I was in this way back when), I had a telecon with one of the Toronto boys at the 416 phone number. In conversation, I was told that, for a large sum, I too could buy restricted shares and.... this is the key... like one of their German investors.
Now, supposing I'm a big holder of a restricted block of unregistered shares, I would have been pestering Lancaster and the boys big time to open up a place convenient to me so I could trade my shares when my restriction period passed. So, it is only logical that there is a connection between the unknown quantity of restricted shares and the opening of trading availability on the Frankfurt exchange.
I was also told that I could travel in December 2005 (which at that time was the timeframe for Grimes #3, #4, thru 20 etcetera) to slog around in the mud and watch completion underway out there. I have an oil & gas background and I would actually have liked to have gone out there to have watched. After that, everytime I called up there, I brought it up and they deftly sidestepped it. Nothing came of it. But the fact remains that early on, they let it slip that they had large German investors and that the kinds of low priced restricted shares these investors were into were available to mee too, if my pockets were deep enough.
So, despite what you argue, I still think that the Frankfurt exchange is on balance bad because it serves as a leak in the dike letting dillution occur on a lagre resevoir of restricted shares that were bought oversees in Euros or Deutchmanks in non-SEC regulated or reportable deals by well healed German.... I can only guess at what this all means when Deutchmark Dollar exchange rate differences are taken into account. After all, I have no idea what the exchange rates were at the time the Germans bought their shares, so it is purely speculation whether the present exchange rate climate will inhibit or encourage dumping of shares in Frankfurt. So, the lack of volume in Frankfurt is inconclusive. It may be due to you being right or it may be that the exchange rate dampens activity. It also could be that the restriction has yet to come off. Even so, as far as I'm concerned, it looks to me like BIGN has installed a piece of monitary condiut and trumpetted it with PR... Given the right conditions, somebody will open that spiggot and we here in the US will have a leak.
The only way it works in the US shareholder's favor is if there is a series of successful slotting news relases that bring BIGN to the attention of speculators over in Europe. So, all in all, we need successfully slotted wells or the Frankfurt thing is just more smoke-n-mirrors.
Anyway, thats what I think. My opinion, only.
ImperialWhazoo
I've read thru all the posts from last Friday evening till today and think these thought are reevant.
1.) I have been meaning to say this but have omitted doing so thusfar, but I think the Frankfurt exchange thing is a net negative rather than a net poitive for all of us who are US shareholders of BIGN. Here's why I think this: I think that this little pink sheet company has investors with millions upon millions of shares in Germany and other places in Europe who bought vast quantities of restricted shares last summer and before that. Now they want to cash in. The restrictive period has passed and the trading by these European restricted shareholders shares will be made more convenient now that the shares trade on the Frankfurt Exchange. My guess is that the tale of the tape.... of the FRANKFURT tape.... will be very instructive in the upcoming days and weeks.
2.) After reading all the posts, I reinterate my belief that the reason the wells languished in Grimes is related to the LOIs. Lancaster is trying to play a weak hand and his task got exponentially more difficult to succeed at when he fell ill. It weakened his position and he had to take less than desirable terms to obtain an extension till August 31. Evidence of this can be seen by the new-found "hurry" to complete the wells in Grimes and the release of a new WW focused LOI that implies but does not state that hydroslotting will be employed and that commits earnest money and requires that actual recompletion be begun during the period ordinarily devoted to due diligence. When you stand back and look at this and try to see the forest for the trees, I see a picture of a guy (Lancaster) doing the best he can to make lemonade out of some lemons.
Further, I don't think he is criticizable for trying really hard to keep the from having to give up too much future revenue from the Grimes completion as the price he has to pay for completing the August 31 LOIs. In fact, thats exactly what a CEO would be expected to accomplish. And thats the key here: did he wait too long to pull the trigger and is that why there is today so much on the board aboud back-up plans? Is this all just evidence that, as is so often the case in life, the perfect paln is not accomplishable? He had a plan, fell ill, had to scramble, and then ultimately had to give away too much. While we wrestled with whether he should give up too much to the lenderes, time grew short and, ultimately, he ended up trying to thread the needle. Tolerances were too tight and now, the slightest hic-up will delail the wholw deal.
So, the way I see it, I am weighing successful slotting as my measuring stick. I expect the #3 to come in in spades and on time, followed soon after by the #4. I expect the #3 to be in time but the #4 not to be. I think the fall-back position of the WW Texas LOI to be successful, but I don't think that it is going to involve slotting. My reason for this is that there is only one slotting team and they are in California and they are, as evidenced by various press releases, commintted to Grime logistically. If #4 fails to get done in time and the Audgust 31 LOI falls thru and if hydroslotting is required on the new WW Texas deal, hBIGN wll have to scramble and get the team repositions together with all necessare logistics & equipmen. Hence, I doubt the WW Texas deal involves slotting.
Finally, we do not know whether the August 31 LOI requires both #3 and #4 to be completed in order for the LOI not to expire. If the WW LOI for Texas that was just released is a guide, then it appears to be sufficient that work on #4 only needs to be underway to avoid having the August 31 deal fall thru. Lets hope thats the way it is laid out. On the other hand, if the lenders want to see success or they will let the August 31 LOI expire, a failure to complete both #3 & #4 will spell failure for that LOI. If both must be completed and their flows proven, I think we as in heap big doo-doo, kemosabi.
Thats my thought, having reviewed the thoughts of everyone else thusfar.
All my opinions, mind you. Do your own dd yada yada yada etcetera ad nauseum and all that rot
ImperialWhazoo
Hey futrcash -
Thanx for the kind words.
I had to step out of the pit today and returned to trading moments ago. A scan of my positions... nothing needing doing...
While I was out and about, I had another thought: try this on for size....
Suppose the wells in Grimes have been tapped into, as it were, to finance the LOIs that expire in 13 days. This is logical because BIGN has a largely unproven technology and the sellers have dead or dying wells. The sellers will sell if and only if the new technology actually works.
Now suppose that due to illness and/or a simple mistake in judgement, Lancaster wasted too much time before agreeing to give the LOI folks enough of the Grimes action to make the LOI go forward. If so, it seems to me there is a high likelihood that the August 31 LOIs will expire simply because there has been an extension already and the sellers are tired of waiting.
So, what to do? Well, BIGN, thru WW, gets another set of properties to do. A new LOI thro WW. The question is: are they completing these new wells using slotting or not? The press release is really unclear.
Another question is: Suppose Grime #3 completes but Lancaster pulled the trigger too late and #4 comes in too late to meet the Aug 31 deadline? Since there has been one extension already, what will happen to the LOI that expires on Aug 31 if both #3 & #4 fail to get completed? What chance iss there of another extension? Plainly put: what is the relationship between the Aug 31 LOI and a success with both 3 & 4? Is there a relationship?
When you go out there this weekend, see whwther you can get info on these questions.
Also, to go back to my first blog today: How many trained slotting teams are there? Can they work both in Texas & California or are the going to have to bring the guys in from California if hydroslotting is to be used on the WW LOI deal in Texas?
Imperial Whazoo
I have spent a lot of time today reviewing the following three press releases:
a.) http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/060803/103236.html
b.) http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/060804/103300.html
c.) http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/060816/103947.html
It is not plainly stated that the properties will be slotted. From (a.) it is clear that they involve a well that was producing 2444 mcf/month when plugged & abandoned in 1977. From (c.) it is stated that the work to be done is recompletion work that is to be undertaken by WW Oil & Gas (50% owned by BIGN, right??), is to commence WITHIN THE DUE DILIGENCE PERIOD of the LOI... ie, prior to the LOI being finalized by either expirtion or acceptance.
So, lets stand back and group the facts into sets: we know the wells involved had substantial production when P&a in 1977 and that they are to be recompleted by BIGN's partially owned WW Oil during the due diligence period of the LOI. We know that WW paid earnest money as part of the LOI but we do not know if Success is paying the expense of the recompletion or whether the recompletion work being done during the due diligence period as a type of payment of earnest money. We do not know if the success of the recompletion work is a condition of the acceptance of the LOI. We do not know even whether the well is going to be hydroslotted or whether the recompletion involves some other recompletion technologies.
One thing we do know is that the hydroslotting team is in Grimes California committed to completing wells #3 & #4. And, in that there is only a single trained team proficient in hydroslotting, we also know that this self-evidently adds legitimacy to a speculation that the well that is the subject of these 3 (above) press releases is likely not going to be hydroslotted by the same team that is committed to the west coast recompletions.
More on this as I mull it over.
Anyone else have any thoughts on it?
Imperial Whazoo
Thanx man...
As a newbie, I have only 3 posts. This will be #2, so I'll apologize ahead of time for not replying further. Gotta ration them, man.
I think that the past tells us that, once completed, it takes about 2 weeks to stabalize production rates. Given that the LOI is tied to the value of the completion (ie... flow rate), it follows that the press release on the completion of #3 needs to be sufficiently ahead of the 8/31 LOI extension deadline to effectuate the timely closing of the deal. So, I would be inclined to think that the news of a successful completion of #3 should be really soon. It is likely that both #3 & #4 are tied in terms of valuation to the successful closing of the LOI. So, the sooner #3 gets reported, the greater the likelihood that #4 will complete in time to avoid expiration of the extension on the LOI.
We can not know for sure if both #3 & #4 have to report solidly to close the LOI or whether only #3 has to. My guess is that both do. In the past, I recall that fully 6 weeks passed on #2 (maybe the first well.... I haven't time to check back right now to be sure of my facts but I do recall that one of them waited 6 weeks during which it went unreported despite it having been completed). So, there is a pretty good chance that #3 is already completed and maybe #4 as well. In any event, if the completing of the two is necessary to close the LOI, let us hope that Lancaster didn't wait too long before giving in and agreeing to tie the value of future income streams to the closing of the LOI.
ImperialWhazoo
I'm a newbie to this board. But not to BIGN. Been on it since about a year ago.
Heres my synopsis.
1. It looks to me like the delay in completing #3 & #4 was the result of the negotiations on the LOI acquisitions. To be blunt, it served BIGN's interest to try to complete the LOI deals as a separate issue but the companies with which they have the LOIs refused to budge on a requirement tieing the completion of the LOIs to some kind of involvement in the wells that are being completed and/or that are planned for completion in the future (or a set of requirements.. ORI interest, Prodiction Payments... that sort of thing).
2. Continuing on this line of reasoning, it further follows that a paucity of press releases would accompany the attempt to keep the LOI deals separate. After all, if you pop press releases in abundance informing a party with whom you are negotiating that there are things of considerable value that they could demand as part of the deal, it would be logical that BIGN would release few, if any, meaningful press releases during the timeframe during which negotiations are underway. Anyone who plays bridge well knows how to read what others have in their hand by what is being bid.
3. And finally, now that BIGN appears to have lost the negotiation over whether the Grimes properties (and probably others in the future) are to be a part of the completion of the LOIs, my expectation is that we will shortly begin to see an uncorking, as it were, of pent up news. The hand has been dealt and bid. Now we are about to see it get played out. Hang onto your hats!!
Conclusion.... we have put in a bottom and the gusher in terms of parabolic price increases await us all very shortly.
The Future's so bright, I gotta ear shades, baby.... I gotta wear shades!
All opinions are mine alone and should not be used or understood to be investment advice. Do your own Due Diligence.
ImperialWhazoo