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If we cannot trust that the apostles accurately taught the people what Jesus Himself taught while He was on earth, or what He taught them by divine revelation after His ascension, why should we trust what they wrote concerning Christ's teachings and deeds in the Gospels? After all, Jesus did not write an autobiography. Jesus' words and deeds have only been preserved for us by the apostles (and Mark) in the Gospels that bear their names. The trustworthiness of those records depends on the trustworthiness of those who recorded them. If the apostles were guilty of teaching doctrines in contradiction to Christ's teachings why should we believe they quoted Christ accurately? Why should we believe that what the apostles recorded Christ as saying is truly an accurate report of Christ's words if the apostles are not trustworthy enough to continue in Christ's teachings themselves? Why would they want to accurately report what Jesus said and did if what Jesus said and did was in opposition to what they were teaching and doing? If their teachings truly differed from Jesus' teachings it would be most reasonable to assume that they would attempt to alter His words so that they would match their own. Maybe they just made stuff up, or misquoted Jesus on purpose. That is what we would expect from people of such an immoral character as to deviate from Christ's teachings in order to advance their own, and advance them in the name of Christ. Seeing that the NT is the only place in which we find Christ's teachings discussed from those who purport to have been eyewitness, and seeing that we have no reason to believe that such liars and deceivers as the apostles would want to preserve His true words (because it would contradict their own), we would have every reason to doubt that the teachings ascribed to Jesus in the Gospels are really Jesus' teachings, and thus we have no source to know what Jesus truly taught. Ultimately this leads us to believe that the whole NT is a lie, not just the epistles.
It may be argued that while the apostles deviated from Christ's teachings, the histories of Christ they penned are reliable. It must be recognized that the Gospels are not a mere history or biography of Christ, but a theological history. Even the casual observer will notice that the Gospels do not always record Jesus' words the same way, nor His live-events in the same order. Each evangelist quoted Christ in different ways and in different contexts, rearranging the historical timeline of those events to convey his own unique theological purpose. The Gospel writers, then, were not acting as mere historians, but rather as theologians. If their theology was contradictory to Christ's, why should we trust the theological history they penned involving Christ's words? We would have every reason to believe they manipulated His words to say what they wanted them to say, not what Jesus actually said, or meant to say by those words.
The real question here is What basis do we have to believe that the words and deeds attributed to Christ in the Gospels are actually Christ's words and deeds, and not just the apostles' fabrication or manipulation of those words/deeds to fit their own deceptive teachings? One cannot critically deny the words of the apostles and at the same time accept uncritically the words those same deceivers attributed to Christ. If we have reason to doubt that the words of the apostles are truth, we should equally doubt that the words they attributed to Christ are truth. The belief that the apostles' doctrine is not to be trusted, while their records of Christ's teachings can be, then, is not justified.
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/jesuswords.htm
by
Jason Dulle
JasonDulle@charter.net
Then I was corrected by this so - I dunno
That's not how I heard it.
Passover is not a weeklong celebration. It lasts 8 days.
The "roast lamb" is just a shankbone and need not be from a lamb although that's traditional. The meal need not be lamb and I've never seen lamb served. This may be an issue of Ashkenazi (how I was brought up) vs. Sephardic tradition.
The roasted egg does not represent the destruction of the Temple. It represents rebirth and the beginning of Spring.
The charoseth is made several ways. Generally it's chopped fruit and nuts, with wine. The idea is for it to look like bricks and mortar. I've never seen it made with almonds.
The salt water is not representative of the Red Sea; it's for the tears our forefathers shed while enslaved.
It's Karpas, not Karpar. We dip it into the salt water. That's the first dipping. The second dipping is charoseth into maror.
The wine and the plagues - when the plagues are mentioned, we don't sip the wine, we put a drop on our plates for each plague. We drink 4 cups of wine but the mentioning of the plagues is not one of those times.
We set out a cup for Elijah and also open the door for him at a point in the celebration.
It's not necessarily the youngest son who asks the Four Questions; it's the youngest person present. I asked the Four Questions for many years, until my cousins could do it. And if I'm at a seder where I'm the youngest (hey, it could still happen ), I would still recite them.
And, there are four questions, plus the lead (why is this night different from all other nights?). They are asked once, not five times. And that last answer you listed, "On all other nights we eat in any ordinary way.
On this night we dine in special ceremony." - I have never heard of that. It's true, but it's never been a part of any of the many seders I've attended.
The entire ceremony revolves around the Four Questions. They are one of the first things done (after handwashing) and then the meal continues with the answers being presented. E. g. this is the bread of affliction, etc.
This might represent a confusion with the story of the four sons: the wise one, the wicked one, the simple one and the one who is not yet old enough to ask a question. The wise one asks for the laws to be explained. The wicked one demands to know what G-d did for you (by mentioning you, he excludes himself and indicated he would not have been led out of Egypt with everyone else). The simple one asks "What is this?" and the one who cannot ask has everything explained to him because he can't yet speak.
Last Supper
Mark 14:22-23
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
Jesus poured water into a bowl and then knelt in front of each of the twelve disciples, washing their feet and drying them with His towel. Jesus told them "Now that I, your Lord, have washed your feet, you should wash one another's feet. I have set you an example, that you may learn that all of your are equal, that the master is not greater than His servant, and kindly toward each other." Jesus and His disciples were reclining at their Passover meal. Jesus blessed the matzoh bread and broke it, saying to them "Take this and eat it, for this is My body."
Then He blessed the wine and passed around His cup. "Drink this, for this is my blood."
Then Jesus looked at each of his disciples. His face was full of sorrow. "One of you sitting here will betray me." Jesus answered, "The one to whom I shall give this bread." Then Jesus took a piece of bread from the loaf, dipped it in the dish of wine and handed it to Judas Iscariot. "Do whatever you have to do, but do it quickly." Jesus said. With a start, Judas got up from the table, left the room, and walked out into the night.
Maundy Thursday
The day on which Christians remember the Last Supper is also known as Maundy Thursday. The word Maundy comes from the latin word maundatum which means "command".
When Jesus and His disciples ate the "Last Supper" it was on the first night of the Passover festival, or during the Seder Meal. During this meal Jesus explained to His Disciples that The Bread was His body and the wine was His blood of the new covenant, shed for the remission of our sins. Jesus instructed us to "Do This in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19)
The example Jesus set in washing the feet of His disciples is sometimes still done today on Maundy Thursday before the Passover supper. Most Churches offer a Maundy Service in which they end the service with Communion, Breaking the Bread and Drinking the wine in remembrance of Jesus' death.
Passover
Passover is the celebration of God delivering the Israelites out of Slavery from Pharaoh, the Egyptian Ruler.
God commanded the Israelites to remember the Passover as a festival to the Lord for generations to come (Exodus 12:14). Most Jewish families continue to observe the feast of Passover Seder (supper) on the first day of Passover. Passover is a week long celebration.
Why would a Christian family celebrate a Seder Meal?
In the New Testament Jesus commanded us to remember His death by observing The Last Supper and it was the Seder meal that He was eating when He instructed us to remember Him by partaking of the Bread and Wine together. In the Old Testament God commanded the Israelites to remember the Seder Passover meal as a festival unto the Lord for generations to come. (Exodus 12:14) Today, the meal in the Upper Room has become part of Holy Week. Each ingredient in a Passover Meal has a special meaning.
As Christians we can explain that we are all "chosen people" if we have been "born" into God's family by believing in His Son, Jesus, as our Messiah. We can share the cup of joy with other Christians out of thanksgiving that Jesus became the final "Lamb" to be sacrificed in order that our "joy may be full".
Food For Passover
In Exodus 12:8 God instructed the Israelites to eat 3 foods ~ Roasted Lamb (Pesah), to be eaten with bitter herbs (Maror) and unleavened bread, or bread made without yeast (Matzah). Below are the Passover foods and the explanations of the meanings from the Old Testament Exodus story (and the New Testament story of Jesus' as our Messiah.)
*Three whole Matzos (unleavened bread). A reminder that the Israelites did not have time to wait for the yeast bread to rise because they had to be ready to move when God said. A piece of the middle one is hidden for a child to find. (New Testament represents the Body of Jesus Christ broken for our sins. As Christians it is a reminder to live so that we are always "ready to go" when Jesus returns. Also yeast sometimes represents the evil in the world. God wants His people to be pure.)
*A roasted lamb ~ placed to the host's right ~
in memory of the lamb sacrificed by Israelites the night before their flight from Egypt.
(Jesus is our final perfect Lamb sacrificed for us.)
*A roasted egg ~ to the left ~
in mourning for destroyed temple.
(Symbol of the free-will offering that was given with the lamb. This represents giving more to God than just what is demanded. This is a gift of love. Jesus is God's ultimate gift. God's law demanded justice, but with the gift of Jesus, God gives us more than justice; He gives us mercy, love and forgiveness.)
* Maror (bitter herbs) ~ placed in the middle
A reminder of the bitterness of slavery in Egypt.
(As Christians we remember that many suffered so that we may know the joy of the good news of Jesus.)
*Charoseth (chopped almonds, apple, wine, sugar and cinnamon)~
Symbolizes the mortar which the Jews had to mix in making bricks for the king of Egypt.
*Salt water ~
to signify the Red Sea which miraculously parted to let the Israelites across.
(Represents the tears of all of God's Saints)
* Karpar (celery, parsley, greens)-
The Hebrew word means 600,000 the recorded number who left Egypt.
(These plants stay green all year and represent the everlasting life because of Jesus Christ's Ressurection.)
*Wine or grape juice ~ Wine represents JOY.
As the service proceeds, as each plaque is mentioned, each person sips a little of the wine. This means that until we were totally free and out of bondange, joy was incomplete.
(At the Last Supper Jesus said that the wine represented His own life's blood, poured out for us. He had to die so that we could know the total joy of freedom and forgiveness.)
*Elijah's cup ~ usually a treasured one filled with wine ~
is placed on the table to await the arrival of the Messiah.
(Jesus said in Matthew 11:14 that John the Baptist was the promised Elijah who was to announce the Messiah's coming. For Christians this cup does not remain untouched. It is shared by everyone at the table in the joy that our hope had come true. The Messiah has come to us and is alive to give our lives eternal joy.
SEDER CEREMONY
The Father or Grandfather is seated at head of the table. The dishes to be served should be located where the father can pass to the family. The youngest son or male asks the same question 5 times, and the father answers explaining why. Here is the question, and the answers.
Why is this night different from all other nights?
On all other nights we eat either leavened bread or matzah.
On this night, only matzah.
On all other nights we eat all kinds of herbs.
On this night, only bitter herbs.
On all other nights we do not dip even once.
On this night, we dip twice.
On all other nights we eat either sitting up or reclining.
On this night we all recline.
On all other nights we eat in any ordinary way.
On this night we dine in special ceremony.
When the eyes of the soul looking out meet the eyes of God
looking in, heaven has begun right here on this earth.
... A. W. Tozer
To put it shortly, the Church forgets that Christianity is
not an attitude of mind, but a type of life: a man's spirit is
not known by his opinion, but by his action and general
conduct.
... William Temple
During the last year or so, I have come to appreciate the
"worldliness" of Christianity as never before. The Christian
is not a homo religiosus but a man, pure and simple, just as
Jesus became man... It is only by living completely in this
world that one learns to believe. One must abandon every
attempt to make something of oneself, whether it be a saint, a
converted sinner, a churchman, a righteous man, or an
unrighteous one, a sick man or a healthy one... This is what I
mean by worldliness -- taking life in one's stride, with all
its duties and problems, its successes and failures, its
experiences and helplessness... How can success make us
arrogant or failure lead us astray, when we participate in the
sufferings of God by living in this world?
... Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945),
Letters and Papers from Prison
"It is our lack of faith that limits Gods blessings in our lives."
Agreed!
Then Forest says "Stupid is as Stupid Does" or something like that! LOL
2nd here for Pre! Bday!
make sure you use the correct email address
looking
not here yet - what the heck
DO you eat those porkies?
it's there and ready to show
it might be I turned down to 800 x 1100 or close - at home you are looking at a gigantic pic with way more resolution.
ok I wish I could remeber how to put up pictures
http://www.myselfpublishing.com/nyc/red_1_800.jpg
http://www.myselfpublishing.com/nyc/red_2_800.jpg
delete this message when you get it figured out
Mrs Pre was there? Oh my! Must have been a great time.
I'm waiting for the pictures so I can put them on the WWW
you have a pm
you didn't have much sun tan!
hope they are still there - however I never deleted them
I'd like to see you drink a gallon of Go-Lightly in 48sec.
that's a reboot with afterburners
you guys are funny - kind a like the odd couple! LOL
You two guys have a great time!
selfknowledge looks like an interesting site
http://selfknowledge.com/dmha.htm
http://selfknowledge.com/index.shtml
the Swamp is sleepy
Some folks from the Marshall Islands dropped by my place yestersay with about a 7 lbs Tuna as a gift. Didn't have the heart to tell them that I'd be the only one eating the fish - So I took it over to by hunting\fishing pal and said cooker- up and give me a call!
darn right!
wonder how that dude caught that CAT? arm in all the way???
all ears is heres
I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope.
- Jeremiah 29:11 (NRSV)
_________________________
I try and keep the words from Jeremiah 29:11 close at hand or heart - around , where I will see them often, in my briefcase and at my desk at home or work. If I'm blitzing down the freeway, or trying to make a point on the web at an atheist site or reaching my middle age or getting ready to set a young son sail on his own. Broken and frozen water pipes. Having a cyberfriend I know loose his faith and his dealing with suicide. Now what?
God's word comes into my life, "I know the plans I have for you .. to give you a future with hope." As I meet each day and its challenges and as I travel through the ups and downs of daily tests in the world it helps me to remind myself
that whatever happens, God's future for me is one filled with hope.
Husker
I forgot how to chart the image
those guys are clearstation are funny I was just looking around at an old portfolio I made a long time ago:
can you see an error in the calculations?
http://www.myselfpublishing.com/stock/clearstation_port1.jpg [chart]
matey remember I have relatives here!
http://www3.weatherview.com/cams/control.html?pset=phx002&aff=cams
It's got to be like north of where I was at cause I don't remember 200 to 300 foot cliffs after the brews you kept pouring! LOL
how much property is there?
cannot tell what you are looking at - golfclub?
I'm older than that! LOL ouch I'm sore
IMHIP
human insecurity and mostly fear
is that by SanDiego?