Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
Register for free to join our community of investors and share your ideas. You will also get access to streaming quotes, interactive charts, trades, portfolio, live options flow and more tools.
I see it as many long term holders do...theft is theft, and the government needs to correct said thefts completely. No if, ands or buts. If the government is too corrupt to do what's right, then the courts better dam well step in and quit looking at things through milky fogged glasses, straighten the government and the situation out, or we are that banana Republic everyone keeps talking about.
How are those dividends/coupon payments working out for you guys? How'do those cases go for back dividends?
Didn't stop prefs, though, Eh?
Oh yeah, they got no direct claims, right? Lol
Right with you on that Guido2
Golfbum22
All my personal outlook here...
I do think Trump, MC, and SM are hoping courts resolve before election most of the important cases, or rounds everything up so a settlement can be had.
If Bidden gets in... we are all very, very screwed that are in the stock market. It's already been reported by a few news outlets that the stock market does not want a Bidden presidency. He would bring in the old Obama Oceans 11 crew and you know what they would do.
Courts are probably reason for the capital rule hold up. No way of knowing what capital when there could be minor to major government liability in the case resolutions.
I'm very much hoping that June, July, August and into September much is known, and settled, and we are locked into an irreversible release.
Sell Jonny, sell
Yes, so as you see, nothing is a given, yet those here saying ACG is the know all and be all of what will happen are pushing rumor and innuendo as fact.
Click on "plan to reform the house finance system" in the first paragraph of the article. Link will open a treasury pdf
https://dsnews.com/daily-dose/09-05-2019/gse-reform-on-the-way
Lol. Facts are scary...
Yep, for sure. Ulterior motives and dreams abound with preferred holders. Conversion, bankruptcy, reverse split,,etc,....next they'll be saying they are entitled to 200% of par, or some other nonsensical theory.
Add away! Your additional info makes the point even more irrefutable.
From Treasury Dept release plan for GSE's:
The guiding principle for ending the conservatorships should be that each GSE should remain in
conservatorship until FHFA determines that that particular GSE can operate safely and soundly
and without posing an undue systemic risk. The specific preconditions for FHFA considering a
particular GSE’s exit from conservatorship should include, at a minimum, that:
? FHFA has prescribed regulatory capital requirements for both GSEs;
? FHFA has approved the GSE’s capital restoration plan, and the GSE has retained or
raised sufficient capital and other loss-absorbing capacity to operate in a safe and sound
manner;
Notice to prefs, it does not say that fhfa IS RESPONSIBLE to undertake raising capital, it does not say to do a pref conversion, it does not say to do a reverse split.
You gotta wonder if pref shares are even necessary at this point in the GSE's business since they ARE too big to fail and the government has proved this by forced conservatorship and said taxpayer bail out (which we all know was unnecessary). My point being...if government is going to say too big or economically important to fail, then why have pref class share that only counts on a liquidation that will never happen. Basically pref's are loaning the companies their money with no say so and no guarantee of coupon payment since the companies can postpone that indefinitely until healthy.
Ya know what's hilarious? Pref's think anytime MC or SM say "shareholders" that immediately it is common holders they are talking about. When they said no windfall for shareholders, that encompassed ALL shareholders. Now courts have shot down pref's direct claims suits, so the only way to gain is through a common position. This is why we see the pref's here vigorously arguing pointless and proof less topics like liquidation, conversions, splits, etc. They can dream I guess, but have no sound reason why the government would want to dilute, or why that is a requirement for release. They're gonna be so heart broken when release or relist hits because it will blow their phony made up theories out of the water. When consent decree happens, they lose any tiny hope of anything positive happening and will be delegated to sitting on those shares until the GSE's decide to either buy at low price or turn back on that coupon payment. Sucks to be in pref shares. No good outlook or future.
How does a pref share liquidation or liquidation pref work when GSE's are deemed too big to fail? Pref's fail to see their lost cause. If GSE's are ever in trouble, bankruptcy just is never gonna happen, so pref's are basically just loaning money. They will never see a liquidation or bankruptcy of the GSE's... Definition from wikki:
in the U.S. at the federal level, in September 2008, the chief executive officers and board of directors of Fannie Mae and of Freddie Mac were dismissed. Then, the companies were placed into the conservatorship of the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) via the determination of its director James B. Lockhart III, with the support and financial backing of U.S. Treasury via Treasury secretary Hank Paulson's commitment to keep the corporations solvent.[8] The intervention leading to the conservatorship of these two entities has become the largest in government history, and was justified as necessary step to prevent the damage to the financial system that would have been caused by their failure. Entities like this are considered "too big to fail
Exactly right. Everything needs to be resolved before any capital raise or IPO. The Government and the GSE boards definitely will need to know the true financial condition of both enterprises before hand. So that means resolution of all detrimental issues. NWS, court cases, warrants, capital rule. At the point where these issues are resolved, we are released or under consent decree. Then a true financial condition can be determined. This is why the pref conversion dream is a no go. It muddy's up the situation and brings a whole lot less clarification.
This is true! The GSE's have been restructured over the past 12 years. All that is left is capital rule, how to attain whatever those capital requirements are, once released.
Preferred stock has been placed in a difficult spot by the case law of
the past two decades. Its current plight recalls the warnings of the famed
investor (and mentor to Warren Buffett) Benjamin Graham, that the yield of
preferred stock is almost never sufficient to justify the risk of maltreatment
by the board
In 2002, William Bratton summed up the plight of a preferred
shareholder under Delaware law:
Preferred stockholders face a uniquely hostile interpretive
environment. ... When senior-junior securityholder [sic]
interests conflict, the managers' interest usually lies with the
juniors. As a result, the Delaware courts have for decades been
ratifying senior-to-junior wealth transfers.
[Thus,] a preferred stockholder who does not control the
board or possess a majority of the voting shares needs a
carefully drafted, triple-riveted set of charter terms. Having
gotten that, it will still need the best lawyer in town should any
problems arise. 157
A decade has passed since this assessment, but it is mostly accurate today.
Preferred stock remains highly vulnerable to wealth transfers to the common
equity, and the charter provisions designed to discourage such opportunism fail much more frequently than analogous provisions in corporate debt. 158
Contract may be a theoretically elegant prophylactic, but in practice, it does
not seem adequate to the task.
The common can also exploit fixed claims by forcing them to give up
their securities at heavy discounts.96 The temptation to do so is strongest
after a rapid decrease in a firm's cost of capital, as might occur when a firm
emerges from a period of financial stress. The newly liquid fum likely wants
to eliminate its high yield financing obligations. This, in itself, is
unremarkable: firms frequently borrow money at a lower coupon rate and
self-tender for their outstanding securities, which trade at a premium to par
value because their high yield is no longer accompanied by as much credit
risk. 97 But who wants to a pay a premium? The windfall for the firm comes
from finding a way to squeeze out the fixed claims at par value or below-
and doing so without dissipating its gains in transaction costs.98
Preferred stock is a particularly attractive target. Because it issues at a
higher yield than debt, as described above,99 fums can realize especially large
profits by squeezing it out. At the same time, case law has rendered it
increasingly simple and inexpensive to redeem preferred stock at sub-market
prices, as will be discussed shortly. 100 Notice that the preferred cannot easily
be compensated for squeeze out risk with a higher yield ab initio. 101 To the
contrary, the higher yield will simply increase the squeeze out incentive, and
when transaction costs are taken into account, it might even prove to be self-
defeating.1
Well, you can bet these advisors are paying attention to this stimulus bail out fiasco going on. Boeing is smart, not jumping in bed with the government, many others also like Southwest are going to raise capital their own way and not partner with the devil government. The CEO's, CFO's, BOD's are all well aware of the GSE situation, I bet, and no how, no way want government running their business into the ground by being used as a piggy bank.
So whoever wants to beleive the assumption that a capital raise before release is smarter....I got some nice land to sell ya in the Everglades.
This is bull...if anything,,no new capital investor wants to get in bed with the government while it is in control of these companies. They risk alot by doing so. Makes absolutely more sense for any capital raise after release,,when a shareholder elected BOD is in place and not a bunch of government yes men. The GSE's need to raise their capital as they see fit, not the government. All fhfa needs to worry about is if they meet the capital standards goals. IF government thinks they will have a hard time trying to raise capital (if needed), then let them try while they still have their hand in the cookie jar. Yeah, that will raise big bucks. Lol
Bravo! Navy.
Amazing folks do not understand the simple connect the dots of criminal activity. Obama will go down as worst, most corrupt, along with quite a few of his minions - hopefully
No need to pay anyone off unless courts direct government to. Why would government do any serious capital raise when the GSE's are raking in 4 billion plus per quarter, as was happening prior to this hiccup? If commons get no special treatment, then neither do prefs. Government will preserve and conserve, courts will find for claims that will only benefit the companies. If that makes commons healthier and pref's sad, so be it.
That may be so...in the past. Inflation is just starting. The more stimulus they throw at this virus set back, the worse inflation will get, it's a given. I will not be surprised to see all pref issues trend down due to this.
Pref's gonna hurt more as this inflationary environment gets going....
Since the dividend on preferred stock is usually a fixed amount forever, once the preferred stock is issued its market value is likely to move in the opposite direction of inflation. The higher the rate of inflation, the less valuable is the fixed dividend amount. If the inflation rate declines, the value of the preferred stock is likely to increase, but no higher than the stock's call price.
I would maybe agree there are possibly fewer holders....BUT those that are holding, are holding way more. I for one was under 10k shares from begining of 2008 until 2012. Since then, I am at 56k+ and possibly adding.
Please read. Spoken truths matter as much as facts.
From Delaware Law Journal,Sorry.
Must read! Especially prefs folks. From Delaware journal Corp law Sorry.
The irony of preferred stock is that courts treat it with disdain.' It should be a staple of modem finance, because it offers an unparalleled financial flexibility that helps businesses stay afloat during hard times and thus reduces bankruptcy risk for investors.2 Yet it has virtually disappeared in most mature industries, largely because preferred shareholders have found it terribly difficult to protect the value of their investment. As a result, they demand a risk premium that few companies are willing to pay, except as a
last resort. Today, nearly all public preferred stock is issued by financial institutions, insurance companies, or other institutions subject to strict capital adequacy regulation, as illustrated by the size and composition of preferred stock exchange-tradable funds. Preferred stock is more commonly used for funding startups, owing to the peculiar risk-return ratio sought by venture
capitalists. Even in that context, however, its use may be declining, as some venture capitalists are rethinking their commitment to an investment vehicle that offers few legal protections. The problem is that corporate law now gives short shift to the equity aspect of preferred stock. Financially, preferred stock resembles debt, in that it has limited upside and its return comes in the form of periodic coupon payments. Legally, though, it is much more like common equity: preferred shareholders, unlike creditors, cannot sue in contract to recoup either their
principal investment or unpaid coupons, and the terms of a preferred stock investment, unlike those of a debt contract, can be altered unilaterally by the firm. As a result, the value of fixed income equity can be opportunistically expropriated by common equity, by such means as dilutive mergers, leveraged recapitalizations, or risk-seeking economic strategies.'' Not even venture capitalists are safe, despite their deep experience with preferred stock and their business power over the companies. Occasionally, they let down their guard, and then can only watch helplessly as their investments are decimated.
Preferred stock also resembles debt in that both instruments are
vulnerable to exploitation by the common. By their nature, fixed claims lose value when subject to increased risk, whereas equity tends to benefit from additional risk. Thus, if the common shareholders can impel the firm to take on additional risk, the value of their investments will appreciate, at the expense of the fixed claimants.
Preferred stock, by contrast, must rely on much weaker remedies. To
be sure, preferred stock typically issues with covenants similar to those included in bond indentures, but they are not backed by the power of accelerated repayment of principal and interest. Dividends promised to preferred stock can be retracted, and the preferred generally cannot force repayment of the principal in the event that a covenant has been breached. The preferred can roughly approximate accelerated principal repayment by obtaining a promise from the firm to redeem the stock if any covenants are breached but redemptions cannot be relied upon in a pinch-they are subject to statutory restrictions and are regulated less by contract than by
equitable principles of corporate law. Ultimately, the preferred
shareholders, as shareholders, must seek legal remedies by means of actions in corporate law. In board-friendly jurisdictions such as Delaware, this operates as a powerful practical disadvantage. While the common shareholders occasionally win when taking action against the board, the preferred nearly always lose.
The corporate law once offered at least a modicum of protection
against exploitation. For instance, the famous 1986 Court of Chancery case Jedwab v. MGM Grand Hotels, Inc. held that boards must respect fiduciary duties when dealing with the preferred. Over the past three decades, however, courts have eroded such duties to the preferred so far that they exist in name only. Indeed, recent opinions have suggested that the board may even have a fiduciary duty to siphon value from the preferred when the
opportunity arises. Today, preferred shareholders must protect themselves with contract-like covenants in the certificate of designation---covenantsthat are most often interpreted very narrowly, in favor of the common. It is
no wonder, then, that investors have lost interest in preferred stock; if one must rely on covenants, better that they be included in an unalterable, legally enforceable debt contract. Preferred stock cannot survive if the board, acting on behalf of the common, can readily expropriate much or all of its value.
The Corporate Decisional Calculus
Corporate decision-makers (e.g., the officers and/or the board) can be induced to take heed of investors' interests primarily by three familiar mechanisms: the investors' power to replace the decision-makers, the alignment of interests between investors and the decision-makers, and the firm's capital market reputation. In standard governance arrangements, these inducement mechanisms are over-allocated to the common, mildly under-allocated to debt, and allocated hardly at all to the preferred. Alignment of
interests almost always redounds to the common's benefit, as directors and managers frequently are paid in part with common equity interests and essentially never with preferred. Thus, common stockholders can confidently anticipate that the board will at least attempt to increase the share price of the common. In most corporations, the common equity also elects the board, and, as noted above, they enjoy the protections of fiduciary duties as against the preferred. Creditors have no direct representation on the board, but they hold the greatest leverage in terms of capital market reputation. Firms more frequently need to roll over their debt than raise new equity;if they wish to secure low-cost financing, they need to establish a reputation in the debt markets for good capital stewardship.
Preferred stock, by contrast, has little input into or sway over firm policy.
We do not know if capitalized or not until we see that "urban legend" of a rule that we keep hearing about. This could be above the min recap level, and it would finally be nice to have it happen, albeit stealthily. I maintain a skeptical optimism until we relist or get verification of some form, OR courts finally get off their rears and give us a definite ruling. Maybe it will all snowball and come to fruition in the next few months?
Another reason of many, why pref holders should be more realistic in their expectations. No conversions, no coupon payments until max capital rule value is hit, and most likely...No required re-IPO
Let's hope so! That would make too much sense, lol
Yeah, pref's should really take this saying to heart when listening to their hedge fund pals.
Yeah....my sentiments exactly. Where is this "number" coming from?
I go by that old saying...if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
You do realize there are many stocks out there that pay no dividends and alot who have recently stopped dividend payments? If the GSE board eventually does a capital raise via more commons, a dividend is only an enticement, not a requirement. Most new IPO's do not pay a dividend until later down the road. Pref's thinking that their dividend or the common dividend is required to raise more capital is as nonsensical an issue as there ever was.
I do believe the GSE's were chartered in Delaware. Some early challenge cases began there, I think....
This is a HUGE unspoken truth that pref holders fail to see when they say they will be converted to commons by the government before release.
Pref's have zero say
Pref's are looked at more as debt than equity.
Diluting commons by cramming down the share price so pref's can convert benefits no one...not government, not commons, not bod, not any ipo. Any IPO would even further dilute and no one will want to buy into that.
Best case for pref's is they get their coupon payment back...2, 3, 4 years from now.
Irony for you
The irony of preferred stock is that courts treat it with disdain.' It should be a staple of modem finance, because it offers an unparalleled financial flexibility that helps businesses stay afloat during hard times and thus reduces bankruptcy risk for investors.2 Yet it has virtually disappeared in most mature industries, largely because preferred shareholders have found it terribly difficult to protect the value of their investment. As a result, they demand a risk premium that few companies are willing to pay, except as a
last resort. Today, nearly all public preferred stock is issued by financial institutions, insurance companies, or other institutions subject to strict capital adequacy regulation, as illustrated by the size and composition of preferred stock exchange-tradable funds. Preferred stock is more commonly used for funding startups, owing to the peculiar risk-return ratio sought by venture
capitalists. Even in that context, however, its use may be declining, as some venture capitalists are rethinking their commitment to an investment vehicle that offers few legal protections. The problem is that corporate law now gives short shift to the equity aspect of preferred stock. Financially, preferred stock resembles debt, in that it has limited upside and its return comes in the form of periodic coupon payments. Legally, though, it is much more like common equity: preferred shareholders, unlike creditors, cannot sue in contract to recoup either their
principal investment or unpaid coupons, and the terms of a preferred stock investment, unlike those of a debt contract, can be altered unilaterally by the firm. As a result, the value of fixed income equity can be opportunistically expropriated by common equity, by such means as dilutive mergers, leveraged recapitalizations, or risk-seeking economic strategies.'' Not even venture capitalists are safe, despite their deep experience with preferred stock and their business power over the companies. Occasionally, they let down their guard, and then can only watch helplessly as their investments are decimated.
Preferred stock also resembles debt in that both instruments are
vulnerable to exploitation by the common. By their nature, fixed claims lose value when subject to increased risk, whereas equity tends to benefit from additional risk. Thus, if the common shareholders can impel the firm to take on additional risk, the value of their investments will appreciate, at the expense of the fixed claimants.
Preferred stock, by contrast, must rely on much weaker remedies. To
be sure, preferred stock typically issues with covenants similar to those included in bond indentures, but they are not backed by the power of accelerated repayment of principal and interest. Dividends promised to preferred stock can be retracted, and the preferred generally cannot force repayment of the principal in the event that a covenant has been breached. The preferred can roughly approximate accelerated principal repayment by obtaining a promise from the firm to redeem the stock if any covenants are breached but redemptions cannot be relied upon in a pinch-they are subject to statutory restrictions and are regulated less by contract than by
equitable principles of corporate law. Ultimately, the preferred
shareholders, as shareholders, must seek legal remedies by means of actions in corporate law. In board-friendly jurisdictions such as Delaware, this operates as a powerful practical disadvantage. While the common shareholders occasionally win when taking action against the board, the preferred nearly always lose.
The corporate law once offered at least a modicum of protection
against exploitation. For instance, the famous 1986 Court of Chancery case Jedwab v. MGM Grand Hotels, Inc. held that boards must respect fiduciary duties when dealing with the preferred. Over the past three decades, however, courts have eroded such duties to the preferred so far that they exist in name only. Indeed, recent opinions have suggested that the board may even have a fiduciary duty to siphon value from the preferred when the
opportunity arises. Today, preferred shareholders must protect themselves with contract-like covenants in the certificate of designation---covenantsthat are most often interpreted very narrowly, in favor of the common. It is
no wonder, then, that investors have lost interest in preferred stock; if one must rely on covenants, better that they be included in an unalterable, legally enforceable debt contract. Preferred stock cannot survive if the board, acting on behalf of the common, can readily expropriate much or all of its value.
The Corporate Decisional Calculus
Corporate decision-makers (e.g., the officers and/or the board) can be induced to take heed of investors' interests primarily by three familiar mechanisms: the investors' power to replace the decision-makers, the alignment of interests between investors and the decision-makers, and the firm's capital market reputation. In standard governance arrangements, these inducement mechanisms are over-allocated to the common, mildly under-allocated to debt, and allocated hardly at all to the preferred. Alignment of
interests almost always redounds to the common's benefit, as directors and managers frequently are paid in part with common equity interests and essentially never with preferred. Thus, common stockholders can confidently anticipate that the board will at least attempt to increase the share price of the common. In most corporations, the common equity also elects the board, and, as noted above, they enjoy the protections of fiduciary duties as against the preferred. Creditors have no direct representation on the board, but they hold the greatest leverage in terms of capital market reputation. Firms more frequently need to roll over their debt than raise new equity;if they wish to secure low-cost financing, they need to establish a reputation in the debt markets for good capital stewardship.
Preferred stock, by contrast, has little input into or sway over firm policy.