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from UBS conference: Liberty's CFO, Maffei, mentions the purchase of debt in Worldspace as Liberty 'dips toe in the water' concerning overseas expansion of sat radio. There's 20 mins left in the UBS conference discussion, so I'll see if it comes up during the Q&A from audience.
Yup, tomorrow will be interesting after the 9am UBS conference. Let's hope for some clear, positive direction from Liberty tomorrow. Could rocket this thing up.
Hmmmm....interesting. Will be interesting.
yes, we all rely on satellites daily. TV and just about all voice communication is relying on satellites. GPS is all satellites. No doubt, sat radio is here to stay. SIRI has turned the corner. Hope WRSPQ emerges from Ch 11 with shareholders intact. Good news from Liberty and/or SIRI tomorrow would really catapult the sp.
I haven't detected bashing here. If you are referring to any posts which try to analyze and figure out the effect on the common stock in BK, that's not bashing. The great thing about investor boards is the exchange of ideas that help everyone with their own DD. It's a hard fact that few public companies emerge from BK without the common shareholders wiped out. That happens more often than not. It just happened to GM shareholders. I'm not saying it will happen here...in fact, my holding a lot of WRSPQ is my bet that this will work out, at least in the short run.
Lotto it is! Let's hope!
Liberty website shows the UBS presentation tomorrow, Dec 8, 9am.
http://ir.libertymedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=61138&p=irol-EventDetails&EventId=2574167
I think SIRI is on at 8am tomorrow.
EZ goose....Liberty's press brief could be about a dozen other things than WRSPQ. They've got a lot of businesses they deal with...like DirecTV, Starz, SIRI, etc. They may not even mention wrspq, who knows. I sure hope they do, in a very positive light.
agreed. would be awesome!
True.....if positive news for shareholders, it flies. But, right now, it sucks. Let's hope Liberty news mentions it in positive light. If they don't mention it, or give some 'non answer', that will suck too. But, anytime you put $ down on a Q stock...what the F ya gonna do!
SIRI CFO presents tomorrow at 8am. Doubt he'll mention WRSPQ though. But, ya never know!
Right....I don't expect 'an answer'...rhetorical comment. I agree about the small float and potentially large NOLs.....
Wonder how many options and RSUs are out there issued to employees and directors. Hopefully a small #.
hyatt....yeah..very nice. used to work right down the street. not anymore...now live in New England....away from the drug dealers and other whackos!
but only if shareholders not wiped out in BK. That's the key here. No doubt, Liberty and SIRI is a positive, but, won't mean a damn thing if common stock wiped out, unless of course, some news causes another spike and you sell and get out. So far, no one has really given a definitive answer on this crucial fact. I'm searching all over trying to figure it out, but, too complex, especially without having all the facts.
Yes, the brief spike to .18 was due to the Mel Karmazin quote. That's when I bought in, when it was at just under a cent. But, bought some more later, which pisses me off...should've gone all-in when it was .007. Anyway, now I'm waffling on my next move. If one is confident shareholders will survive BK, then this thing will fly up. But, I'm not sure. Really need opinion of a BK lawyer so we know the odds. My earlier post found an explanation of NOL survivability in BK, but it was clear as mud to me. If NOLs are high, and can survive to Malone, then shareholders live to fight another day. If not, adios common stock in the 'old WRSPQ'.
Yes, but where will the shareholders stand? That's the big question. Watching the SP over the last few days, including right now, it's looking like people are dumping it for fear of getting wiped out by this Malone deal.
NOLs. Check this link. There's a section explaining NOLs in bankruptcy proceedings. It's tough to follow....very legal-based explanation. I think the NOLs may not be in play because there's a provision in the law which relates to debt being 'old and cold' to differentiate between debt that's been snapped up by third party, in this case, that would be Malone. But, it's very confusing.
http://www.gibbonslaw.com/news_publications/articles.php?action=display_publication&publication_id=2754
Not really a surprise. SIRI stock would never move on news of hooking up with Worldspace. It's only going to move when it hits street targets, which it did in Q3, and will probably do in Q4. The satellite issues, among others, with Worldspace were obviously well known to Malone. He wants the spectrum and the existing biz in India, and the NOLs, is my guess. The last item is key to keeping shareholders from being wiped out.
Sorry, but I don't think it's that simple. First, the $400M to SIRI was a loan, in exchange for 40% stake in a company with 18 million subscribers, and that loan has been repaid. And, SIRI was not in BK, which is a significant difference. I don't think Malone paid $103M, as I've said before. He paid for, and owns, a 'credit claim', technically worth $103M. We don't know what he paid for it, but probably a lot less than that. The assets of Worldspace are probably not worth even near that $103M. But, that aside, the obvious is Malone wants something out of Worldspace, but what is it? Is it to keep the company intact, or, simply suck the assets out, including spectrum licenses, for Liberty Satellite Radio Inc (his new venture constructed just for this transaction) and/or SIRI to use? Do the NOLs have enough value to keep Worldspace intact and ownership percent below the IRS threshhold for use of NOLs? Or is it better for Malone to wipeout shareholders and forgo the NOLs? I don't know, but these are the questions. I guess, from my perspective, the LESS he paid for that 'credit claim', the better, with respect to keeping the company intact. That way, he gets this company for a song, gets the NOLs, and with such few shares out there, dilution is no big deal....all reasons to NOT wipeout common shareholders.
Yes, you are right! Let's hope there's solid positive news and this thing flys this week. Would be a great xmas gift for all! (:
Sorry, don't agree with your interpretation. "bought up the debt" doesn't mean they paid 100% for it. Again, Liberty bought the "claim" against Worldspace as part of the BK process. It doesn't say for how much. You are assuming he paid 100 cents on the dollar. No way. These creditors were stuck. They had a company in BK with very low revenue and heavy debt load. They were very willing to get out for only $28M. Malone may have paid more or less than that, but no way he paid $100M. No way.
That's correct. Samara tried, but failed because he couldn't come up with the $. The company is still intact. Malone now owns the debt claim for $100M in Chapter 11 proceedings, for which he paid an undisclosed amount to each of those creditors. I like the NOL theory...to keep the company intact to preserve that loss for future use. That makes sense.
Your premise is that the creditors would agree, as part of the Chapter 11 proceedings, that they would take $28M and let the assets go, and then keep the company going. Then what would be left? Nothing. Why would they do that? It's because they would take $28M to just get out, transferring the mess to Samara,figuring there wasn't anything of value to satisfy their claims of over $100M. Typical Chapter 11.....the creditors take x on the dollar to go away. So, Malone comes along and sees the opportunity to get control for a similar amount and displace the creditors. The creditors already showed they would take way less than the aggregate $100M to go away. So, they were left with a choice..hang on and hope for another buyer or settle for a Chapter 7 liquidation, or, take Malone offer, for whatever it was, to buy their claims.
License question is a great one. I guess it depends on the legal terms of the license. Are they transferrable, not, whatever? That's the key. If they are issued to Worldspace and cannot be sold or transferred, then they have no value unless Worldspace Inc survives. But, is that the legal requirement or not? I have no clue.
He bought their "claims" in bankruptcy court for an unknown amount. No way he paid them face value. That's a very important fact in terms of how much he's invested. But, I do agree that the NOL has value, but the question is how much. Does anyone know the total value of the NOL?
"John paid the claims and we have assets in place." But, now John Malone is the claimant and he has claim worth over $100M, regardless of what he paid the orig creditors for it. If he were to press for full value, his claims far outstrip the asset value.
Malone did NOT pay $100M for the debt. He paid the creditors x on the dollar for the debt claims, worth $100M. Read the press article more carefully. We don't know what he paid, but doubt it was more than $28M, since the creditors showed they were willing to accept 28M from Samara. The creditors were happy to give away the claims to get out, even if having to take a significant haircut. So, don't assume Malone paid huge money, because he didn't. Just sayin'.
Right. But remember, no way Malone paid off the creditors for more than that $28M. They showed their hand when they were willing to accept that amount from Samara. I think your point about the NOLs is the most compelling argument to not change the ownership percentage to preserve that valuable asset. So, the Samara purchase, had it closed, would've canceled the NOLs due to change in control (not sure about that, since there's legal BS in all of this stuff). If Malone, as creditor, agrees to a restructure which keeps shares intact, and he gets preferred shares with value that stays below the threshhold (like he did with SIRI), then we all win. That may be the plan. But, it all hinges on what he really wants. If he only wants the sats and the spectrum, he'll wipeout the shares, because he would have zero interest in worldspace as a going concern. But, the NOLs could be the key. What's the NOL amount?
The creditors were willing to sell the assets for a paltry $28M and the deal fell through because Samara was scrambling and couldn't come up with the $. I guess it is telling us that Malone probably paid around the same to purchase the debt, so now he's the sole large creditor. What's his next move? I can't see why he would leave common shares intact. Why share the pie with unsecured 'owners'? No benefit to Malone. And, because it is usually the practice to wipeout shareholders in Chapter 11, doubt the court will block such a move by Malone. IMHO. Since I hold shares, I wish I could see another option here, but I don't. Anyone have opinion on this?
It would be interesting to know how many public companies emerging from Chapter 11 do NOT wipe out common shareholders. I have a feeling it is a minority. Malone is now the only creditor (except for trades owed money for services/equipment sold to the company). Why did he take that position as opposed to 'buying' the company outright? I think this does not bode well for shareholders. He paid x on the dollar for the debt to give him control 'on the cheap'. An outright purchase would have forced him to assume all the debt at 100% and pay x per share, or exchange Liberty stock for WRSPQ stock at some conversion rate. So, the question is this: how is it in Malone's interest to NOT wipe out common shares?
Not necessarily. Common shares are in Worldspace Inc, which owns the Indian company. That company is an asset of Worldspace Inc, which can't be completely separated without some type of agreement by the parent company, which is in BK, with Malone as the only creditor. Not a lawyer, and don't have all the facts, so who knows. But, the good news is that the bankruptcy court is in charge of making sure settlement is fair, so it's not like Malone can do whatever he wants. He has assumed risk by buying the debt. Unlike the SIRI deal, he didn't invest $ in Worldspace. He paid off creditors for x on the dollar, and now holds the notes, apprently all of them. Question is, what is Malone's plan? Does he just want the satellites and the spectrum licenses, or, does he want the operation that's running in India? What can he get via the bankruptcy court proceeding? Will he restructure the company and continue WRSPQ, or can he force liquidation, wipe out commmon shares? I guess my point and question is, what are the opinions of those on this board? It's not a simple 'Liberty owns Worldspace'. More complicated, I think. IMHO.
Just found this quote taken from an SEC filing for another public company in BK on the pink sheets, which is probably standard language, perhaps even in WRSPQ's SEC filings as well (?). Anyone here have info or knowledge or conjecture as to the potential for WRSPQ common stock to be wiped out under a Liberty debt purchase and ownership of the company?
"A plan of reorganization could result in the Company's shareholders receiving little or no value for their interests, and holders of the Debtors' unsecured debt, including trade debt and other general unsecured creditors, receiving less, and potentially substantially less, than payment in full for their claims. Because of such possibilities, the value of the Company's common stock and unsecured debt is highly speculative. Accordingly, the Company urges that appropriate caution be exercised with respect to existing and future investments in any of these securities. Although the shares of the Company's common stock continue to trade on the Pink Sheets Electronic Quotation Service ("Pink Sheets") under the symbol "CEMJQ", the trading prices may have little or no relationship to the actual recovery, if any, by the holders under any eventual court-approved reorganization plan. The opportunity for any recovery by holders of the Company's common stock under such reorganization plan is uncertain as all creditors' claims must be met in full before value can be attributed to the common stock and, therefore, the shares of the Company's common stock may be cancelled without any compensation pursuant to such plan."
Sounds encouraging. A poster over at Yahoo board says they called the company in US on Friday and the 'lady who answered said Liberty has bought Worldspace...done deal'. Now, who knows if that is factual, but, if you take the post as true and accurate, that indeed is good news. Question though is how common shares will be treated in the deal emerging from BK.
Thanks! Yes, we do. Don't remember who posted it, but earlier someone made a comment as if they really had the scoop on this thing with so much optimism for a company which may not even be operating. just sayin'. Hey, I'm holdin' shares so I'm hopeful for something. But, I'm thinking I should of dumped 'em the day I bought 'em. Missed that boat, so waiting for round 2. thanks.
post #45....good for you. If the article you posted is accurate, then Liberty bought all of the debt. However, worldspace is still in BK. Malone could wipe out all the common shareholders by refusing to workout a plan with the court, and just taking the hard assets. After all, the company doesn't have many subscribers. Is it still actually broadcasting? Filing Chapter 11 doesn't necessarily mean a company can emerge as an operating company. So, back to my original question.....what's the big news that a few here seem to think is imminent? I bought shares on the news from Mel, but is someone in the know saying there's more to come soon? thanks!
Hi...new to this board. I bought in to Worldspace on the intitial news quote from Mel Karmazin and Liberty buying Worldspace debt. However, I'm missing what a few of are saying here...that you are expecting some form of big news soon. I'm not so sure....the debt Liberty has bought is only the small amount of DIP financing...not the big $ from bond holders. But, not sure of any of it, so.....what's the word?
thanks!