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Ken should realize by now that INSIDER TRADES on BVIG are required to be REPORTED after 3 days. I don't see any yet for him, Tim, Sully, Brookes, and KATX itself. Surely some of them have received or divested BVIG shares by now. I would say some of them are LATE FILERS ALREADY. LOL. Typical !!!
O K -- the S-1 simply stated that if you held KATX on Dec. 21, 2011 YOU WOULD WOULD WOULD WOULD get the Spin-Off. Apparently that may not be the case if you sold AFTER the Record Date. And this uncaring C E O did not warn his loyal Shareholders about that. THIS STINKS BADLY !!!!!!!!!!
I luv' it and am really enjoying this controversy except that somebody eventually is going to get short changed and won't like it. One of my remaining questions is about the TWO classes of KATX in this drama now. The one with a Due Bill and the one without and how the Brokers are going to be able to tell them apart.
I'm not sure yet if BVIG even has an M M signed on. Anyhow if I had received shares based on the 2013 Ex Date I would be I touch with my Broker for a final clarification and assurance that they are tradable before putting in any sell order. I think that point is STILL ' up in the air ' right now and is one of the reasons why there is low volume this morning on both stocks -- INDECISION !!
Yes binks I will second you on that. The math is simply not there. The losses on the steadily declining KATX can't be made up yet from the current price of BVIG which has also dropped considerably just now. Profits cannot be bragged about until they are REALIZED by selling that stock. Many a slip twixt cup and lip. And for everyone's info - pls show me where I advised anyone to sell anything. There can be bashing and negative posting without advising anyone to sell. People must make up their own mind.
They picked a round-about entirely new and strange way of doing this - whatever their objective was. Right now it looks like it is backfiring on them. And it's not over yet. I am sure there are many many people studying this right now. I doubt if they could have confused it any more than it is right now.
The number of BVIG shares to be distributed is cast in stone. It is a FINITE number. Then if a lot of people are cheering that they have received more than they expected -- then it must follow that there are soon to be multiple complaints from MANY people reporting in that they have received NONE or less than they expected. This - then - indicates that the EX DATE is the TRUE Record Date. I'm not yet convinced that it is the case. But it is still not resolved which KATX would have Due Bills and which would not ,, nor how the Brokers will know how to distinguish. I can't see how the S E C is still silent over this mess which definitely does not give a level playing field. This also encourages favoritism in the Brokerage Houses. A small client buys KATX in September - say - & a big client does the same. Both expect to get the Due Bill. The Broker may favor his bigger client. So he tells all his small clients AFTER THE FACT - that NO - you didn't buy the KATX with the Due Bills ,, SORE EEE !!! Tough !! This happens because Ken was stupid to issue more KATX BEFORE the Ex Date. But I guess he had to in order to sell to pay his salary and other bills. And just now he was again stupid to put out that new release about another ha ha property before this distribution fiasco was resolved. You couldn't make this stuff up.
You don't get it. All these people work together. All the share certificates sit at the Depository which the Broker's collectively own. The Depository has a ' Loan Post ' into which any Broker can designate how many shares he agrees to put there for the shorting use by any member who chooses to do so. If there are NO shares at the Loan Post - no shorting is allowed. In your case your Broker is correct for Margin Accounts. If you had your shares in a Cash Account they would take your instructions not to put out any at the Loan Post. These guys do things collectively and the only personal contact you can have is at your own Broker who is your agent. However there was NO shorting of any type at KATX. So there are no Air Shares or Naked Shares or Short Shares to add to the big big confusion that already exists here in this Clown Show.
I'm not talking about responsibility - I'm talking about GOOD C E O s who CARE ABOUT their Shareholders and in this case because it is unusual Ken SHOULD HAVE KNOWN all would not understand it. And he SHOULD HAVE explained it in more detail. As it is - NOTHING was put forward. The man is NOT a caring person. Personally my own jury is still out on this JERK. If he's short a few brain cells and means no harm, this is all forgivable. If he's trying to be a cute conman - then it's a different story and he will get exposed.
You just wrote it. HOW are the TWO classes of KATX shares in play now distinguished - one from the other ? Maybe the guy bot shares THAT DID NOT HAVE DUE BILLS or those rights to BVIG shares. Then throw the M M s into the mix who often act as middle men and trade in and out of their own inventory. Yes it really is the Gordian Knot. ROTFLMAO.
I challenge that. It's no longer certificates that trade or change hands -- it's CREDITS. The T A has NO IDEA who most of the Shareholders are. Say he has E-Trade on his books. He has issued x number of certificates with the name of E Trade on them. They of course are all numbered and they probably sit in the Depository right now. The clients of E Trade trade against those certificates -- in and out day after day. You can't track those trades. Like Joe Sixpack sells 100,000 KATX CREDITS. Do you mean to say that those can be somehow marked in the system with a NUMBER saying they have a Due Bill attached now ? So 3 newbies buy those and then later sell them. Can you not see the complexity that can develop ? I can. Maybe you can't. And I have already mentioned that NEW KATX shares without any Due Bills have been added to the mix. I think it is a Gordian Knot !!!!!!!!! And eiddle your answer is as usafa believes. Most of the CERTS in play do sit at the Depository. None of the physical stuff moves anywhere very often. The whole system runs on accounting credits and debits backed by those certs collectively. I can't rationalize each credit have its own number. But the credits DO get traded around. It's now like there are 2 proofs of ownership in play.
There are grounds for FRAUD charges against Ken shaping up now for the way this is all developing where some people seem to be getting better treatment than others. Especially recent spikes in volume that can imply trading on inside information -- which is a criminal charge - Hello Martha Stewart. Except for realizing that some nice but innocent people will be financially hurt here I am really enjoying all this 'fun'. I think the renaissance guy on the KATG Board has nailed it correctly. I agree with him. Do you know what would reeeeely help right now ?? It would be an explanatory press release from Ken to clarify this mess. But don't hold your breath waiting for it !! LOL. Damage Control ????
When the smoke finally clears here I don't think the accounts are going to balance. The brokers are not all singing the same song. I think the S is really going to hit the fan.
To a certain extent I can agree with you - BUTTT - here are a couple of thoughts. The ONUS for distribution does fall on the Brokerage houses but the math is not simple. This whole process dragged on far far too long and during that time NEW KATX got into the mix. So in essence at the Ex Date there were two classes of KATX trading. If you bought some KATX say last September - how is your Broker to know which class you bought ? Physical certs with attachments or Letters don't circulate. I will admit that despite having a lot of first-hand experience in matters like this my old brain heats up trying to figure this one out -- to the extent that I have given up and will wait now like everyone else. This is NOT 100 % clear yet. The fault does lie with the 2 Companies for letting this drag far far too long and not communicating with Shareholders AT ALL. A caveat and an explanation should have been given a long long time ago. A caring C E O would have done this.
I'll tell you another thing that I don't understand. It seems that some people are very very chummy chummy with Ken Stead. Why wouldn't they phone him and ask him the applicable Record Date - being either the Dec. 21 one or the ha ha Ex Date ? And report back here. And at the same time have him tell us about the income tax ramifications. Get it from the horse's mouth. I disagree with your take on both counts -- so we still have to wait.
If this keeps up these 2 Stead stocks will be the laughing stocks of the O T C. Who would chance buying right now ? And on the flip side there are some who got extra BVIG shares who may choose to wait a bit in case they did indeed get too many BVIG. So no selling from them. Monday again is going to be a VERY interesting day. Right now I don't think either of these stocks is going to break out either way - sharply up OR down. SURELY there must be SOMEONE who knows the rules. And yes mappo - some Brokers really ARE dumb. All of them employ minions who do not know the rules.
Thanks. THERE is the controversy in a nut shell. The Member faith works has nailed it. This confusion is not over until it's over, Yogi. LOL. We may yet see the S hit the fan.
Quote --
I have escalated this issue at Charles Schwab and am awaiting a response. If you have not received your shares, I encourage you to call you brokerage and escalate the issue. I’ve called at least 4 times today before I finally got someone who was willing to help and not give me the party line that
it is only the Ex-Date that is important (which is incorrect). The incorrect distributions of BVIG is not a problem with the S-1 filings or with, Compushare, the transfer agent. All was correct on that end. It is a problem with the brokerages. If many call in, hopefully we will get a resolution. This is a very serious blunder by the brokerages.
So far we have heard only from those who say they received more BVIG than they expected. Let's hear it from those who have received LESS or NONE. Let's hear their stories. Interesting. Once again re the taxation issue. Let's hear more about that as people are no doubt already doing D D on that. Meanwhile the ha ha mineral properties are still sitting idle waiting for new working capital.
So far we have heard only from those who say they received more BVIG than they expected. Let's hear it from those who have received LESS or NONE. Let's hear their stories. Interesting. Once again re the taxation issue. Let's hear more about that as people are no doubt already doing D D on that. Meanwhile the ha ha mineral properties are still sitting idle waiting for new working capital.
Here are some things that I would like to find out from the Board here. Some are saying they received more BVIG than they expected. Can all of them truly say that they bought additional KATX between the Record Date and the E Date ? Probably they did. Now are there any members here who DID NOT get as many BVIG as they expected - and did they sell any KATX between the Record Date and the Ex Date ? That could explain it. And finally are there any here who did not get ANY BVIG after thinking that they would ? So they must have sold all their KATX between the Record Date and the Ex Date. I'm looking for the final answer about which date is the true one -- the Record Date or the Ex Date - keeping in mind that the S-1 said THE RECORD DATE !!!! And the Company did not confirm that. NOWHERE does it warn that you had to HOLD your KATX shares up until the Ex Date. There will now be both happy campers and irate Shareholders and former Shareholders of KATX. We may see the FRAUD word appearing.
So tell me what led those who made the S-1 to say that you will be taxed. Perhaps your case is unique and I do extend my condolences to you as a disabled Vet. Good luck. Taxes are a whole different world and each person is on his own to find out just where he stands. I still say the T Man is going to tax based on the price of BVIG at the date of the Pay Day which is much much much higher than it is now. Good luck to all anyhow.
Here is one of the crucial points emerging now in this utter fiasco. There is real confusion over which holds the true sway -- the Record Date or the Ex Date. Some say they are getting more shares than they thought. This means that their particular broker interprets the Ex Date being the one. This contradicts what the S-1 said. We have all discussed this subject many times - but in my opinion we still do not have the final answer. If the Ex Date is the one, there will be many people who WILL NOT get any shares and who assumed that they would. These may contact the S E C and we may yet see S hit the fan. I'm not recommending buying or selling or holding next week. This is your own decision but let us say you did sell next week. You may be selling shares that you are not entitled to have. You can see that this fiasco is detracting from what's happening to KATX and BVIG in the real world - the answer to which is still NOTHING. This gives Stead time to find some working capital from somewhere - but the financial climate is not in his favor right now. Gonna' be another fun week.
EXQUISITE CONFUSION !!!!!!!!!!!! LOL. I'm luvin' it. Ken could not have screwed this up any more if he tried. WHAT A HUGE HUGE MESS. Some are saying one thing and others are saying the opposite and the bottom line is -- NOBODY KNOWS -- PRICELESS - you couldn't make this stuff up.
The S-1 SAYS THAT YOU WILL BE TAXED !! I am amazed that there is so much confusion generated by this Spin-Off. It truly is a Clown Show !!! Ignorance is bliss. ROTFLMAO !!
You really should check this thoroughly. I've done this stuff and have experience. I found that the meter the Tax Man has starts ticking on the same day you actually GET the shares and he uses the price THAT DAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Big big big difference - so you should check it for your own situation. Good luck !!
O K then -- that pretty well shoots down your theory that there were Air Shares or I O U s in play. Am I not correct ?? See what taxes you are going to have on them - WHETHER YOU SELL THEM RIGHT NOW OR NOT. You will be taxed. When the smoke finally clears here you are going to get some very unpleasant surprises. Do some D D on that and show me that I am wrong on either of those counts.
At this present moment all those who have received the Spin-Off shares are worse off financially than they were on the Record Date. Do the math and see for yourselves. The KATX has dropped considerably since then AND the worst part is that the Tax Man is going to value those BVIG shares around 7 cents and you will pay your tax based on that. Don't believe me -- check with any accountant that knows this stuff. As they say -- Read 'em and weep !! And the prospects for either BVIG or KATX of going any higher in price are pretty grim right now.
Meanwhile Ken can sell. How cruel is that ??
Here is one of my reasons that there are no KATX shares short here besides the obvious that there never were any I O U shares or Naked Shorts in KATX. If there is a short position either declared or Naked the total number of shares in play will always be more than what the Issued and Outstanding is. Were this the case in KATX as mappo thinks the ratio of BVIG / KATX WOULD NOT BE 1 BVIG for 3 KATX. IT WOULD BE MORE THAN 3 KATX for 1 BVIG because the BVIG total is FIXED and FIRM. There are Members reporting in already that they are getting 1 BVIG for 3 KATX. Conclusion ?? THERE ARE NO AIR SHARES OR I O U SHARES OR NAKED SHORTS IN KATX. Period !!!!! AND THERE AIN'T GOIN' TO BE A SHORT SQUEEZE mappo.
I can't see KATX doing a big new financing without first rolling it back severely. Then you may see an absolutely huge number of new shares given out to a new owner/financier at as low a share price that people can tolerate without getting sick. As for BVIG it too is looking bloated enough to invite a big roll-back also. Followed by the normal huge dilution at an obscenely low share price for a new financing. NO -- I am NOT a buyer of either of these questionable Companies.
I am waiting for when irate and formerly loyal KATX Shareholders turn on Ken Stead and his paid touts and Groupies. Just wait until new financing details are announced.
I have no intention to gloat. In fact I have sympathy for some innocent KATX Shareholders who have been duped and conned. Not so for others who I firmly believe were compensated by Ken Stead to pump and hype his garbage.
This is starting to smell --- badly !!! They will be getting the tar & feathers ready for Ken any day now.
Just a couple of things now to start the new day. As far as I can see there was no public announcement about the new M O U. It's on the webpage but nowhere else that I can find, And of course KATX is still late-filing. I also do not see anything yet about the Insider Trading on BVIG. That must change soon because Ken, KATX, and others have new changes to report promptly.
Did you ever think it might be long-suffering Shareholders fed up with the Steads and these 2 companies that never do anything welcoming the opportunity to get out now ahead of the mob of sellers yet to come ? That premise about Air Shares being sold is absolutely preposterous -- ABSURD !!!
Show me da' money !!!!!!!!!! To check ANYTHING out. You can't run on B.S. fumes for very long. And Brookesy needs his booze !!
Surely you must realize by now that without an audit you can't believe ANYTHING these guys report. They DARE NOT report the truth now -- they'd be in big trouble - in my opinion.
I avoided controversy, complication, and contention and any trading and any jiggery-pokery Due Bills. If you merely sat with what you had on the Record Date and you liquidated to-day you would be DOWN 21.1 % plus the upcoming tax bill on the divi. I have NO IDEA about what you are trying to show.
It was only said APPROXIMATELY and not a hard and fast 3 / 1. Perhaps this is what happened - and it would blow that I O U -- Air Share business out the window. The Record Date gives the Company a reasonably accurate total share count. There are always some shares that do not make the count so the KATX number comes in a bit low. Since the TOTAL divy is FIXED it gets divided by a lower total number of KATX -- the ratio gets to be MORE than 1 for 3. Hope this helps you. Ehhhh -- perhaps the other member has a point too -- maybe you did get some Due Bills. Congrats. Your gain would be someone elses loss.
Abe here is some simple math to put this into perspective. At the time of the Record Date the price of KATX was on a continuing long down trend so if you strike an average price at that time it is realistic because there were never lower prices to bring the average lower. I picked $0.006 from the chart at the Record Date. So let's say we just use 3000 shares of KATX as the initial investment ( for our illustrating purposes here ). That's $18.00. So fast forward to now - and this is now worth 3000 times $0.0009 = $2.70. But you also have the BVIG bonus of 1000 shares. These to-day are worth $11.50 right now. So adding the total value of your holdings in KATX and BVIG you have $2.70 plus $11.50. This is $14.20. So your original $18.00 has become only $14.20 to-day. DOWN 21.1 % in 15 months. Plus of course there is still tax to be paid on your ' Dividend ' of $11.50 ( in our example here ). Numbers do not lie.