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IGM - The Irony is Not Lost.
WTM often contradicts himself, and his post is a perfect example. He forgot to mention that I also said BUY when PLUG was at $2.50 and ran to $75.
If anyone had listened to me with PLUG and a dozen other stocks they would be very wealthy. If you go back you see that was spot on with secondaries, earnings, nothing burgers (MULAG is my favorite) a batting average well over .800.
Funny that WTM's TOP FOUR Stocks are at/near ALL TIME LOWS !
Funny that my TOP FOUR PICKS are ALL at All Time Highs !
I think many of us fell in love with the idea of Fuel cells and Hydrogen and got caught up in the hype to the point we ignored what should have been the obvious signs like Andy selling the accounting issues and the string of missed projections and earnings. Just waited for things to turn and believed way too much in Andy and his pumping the company and making promises and statement never kept, deals that never materialized and endless bad decisions. Watching Fox Business at lunch a congressman came on and said Trump should get rid of the 1.3 trillion spent on the green energy package and get Government back to the pre covid spending. If he's right and this is delayed it could very well happen. The DNC likes to make big promises they can use as campaign slogans but never really act on. The Progressive end of the Party did not like the bill and either did big oil, so they sought to make it harder and slow of kill development with tighter rules. I'm sure like most things you can just follow the money. H2 just may end up another niche market or another experiment that ends up back on the shelf unless a new discovery makes it cheaper than batteries.
"JB, you've been right a lot lately."
if he has been right a lot and has made excellent calls, what more credibility is needed???...lol
"The low credibility is due to the fact that as far as I can remember and can discern from your posts, you've have always been negative on PLUG."
which has proven to have been the CORRECT call...how is that a negative??...
"If someone like UK, Steve, BB, and others, had made the above recommendation, I would have likely listened to them, because they have credibility."
but since they didnt, you lost money...so how has your definition of "credibility" worked out for you?....maybe rethinking your thought process is what is needed...maybe the problem isnt JB...maybe its you....
HELLO!
yup...it appears that the water produced by gas or hfcv are about the same...
JB, you've been right a lot lately. Your best call/advice/recommendation was to sell PLUG when the share price was at $65 (near the peak), and Andy sold millions of dollars worth of shares. Unfortunately for us, due to your low to no credibility, which persists to this day, I didn't listen to your advice. The low credibility is due to the fact that as far as I can remember and can discern from your posts, you've have always been negative on PLUG. A few of your posts, at times, seem to contain positive information, but it's either unclear if you are serious or sarcastic, make cover your ass type statements, or are just vague enough to not be clear one way or another.
If someone like UK, Steve, BB, and others, had made the above recommendation, I would have likely listened to them, because they have credibility.
the 45v would have already been implemented but so many didnt agree with how regulatory agencies wanted it implemented that it has been delayed even further...thats just how it goes...the delay could last until after the election...and if trump wins, those who caused the delay will likely wish they had just accepted the 45v that was presented by the regulatory agencies...in the end, it will be a big win for hydrogen or a big loss...time will tell...they wanted more and they are risking getting nothing...
the DOE loan is a loan...its not free cash...if it looks like that $1.6 bil wont really solve plug's woes or even help much, then its a bad loan and it wont be made...my guess is the DOE is giving plug time to show that their money wont simply go down the drain...because at this point, that is the outcome they are seeing....this has nothing to do with the presidential election at all...
It happens every time.
Pumpers stir up froth (Buy the Rumor ) .
And then the News disappoints (Sell the Facts).
ECL = Nothing Burger
A combustible engine will put out more water than that from condensation during the winter I don’t believe water is a problem
WTM - I am in AWE !
Your Top Four stocks are AT or Nearing ALL TIME LOWS ! How do you do it ?
I couldn't find 4 worse stocks if I tried . You have a remarkable talent.
If there any other stocks that have caught your eye please let us know ... especially if they are way overvalued.
As for you honest question, there is no truth or proof that 45v and the DOE Dough are being purposely delayed.
Honest question It has been cited, and now appears to be materializing, that both 45V and the DOE loan, are purpously being delayed until the upcoming Presidential election in November. Can anyone please explain to me the logic behind that decision/strategy? I personally cannot think of a single good reason to do so.
I guess timing is everything and we were ahead of the curve and things move slower than expected in life and then before you know it things have changed. You can be a pioneer and still lose out to a new upstart with a better mousetrap or an old company that is wiser with deep pockets. Andy was way too aggressive and blew a huge wad of cash without knowing the regulatory hurdles and how slow things would move.
Collectively Fuel Cell Stocks are at ALL TIME LOWS !
But Hydrogen Stocks are at ALL TIME HIGHS !
You guys picked the WRONG HORSE.
WTM - NKLA is at ALL TIME LOWS !
Another Hydrogen FAIL.
What are Hydrogen Fuel Cell Class 8 Trucks & Nikola's Biggest Challenges
Cars and Culture with Jason Stein
30.7K subscribers
Posted Sep 23, 2024
Steve Girsky, CEO of Nikola Corporation, talks about some of Nikola's biggest challenges and why hydrogen fuel is a viable option for heavier vehicles.
Watch the FULL EPISODE here
4,000 seems awful light....i saw many estimates that said 20,000 drops are in 1 liter...one said 10,000...i didnt see any that were less than those...other than yours...
"so a Nikola hydrogen FCEV truck would release about one drop of water every foot traveled"
assuming one can drive around non-stop...but in reality, there are stoplights, stop signs and many other reasons why vehicles have to come to a stop for 30 seconds or more...if you have 10 or 20 fcev constantly stopping at every red light all around a city for 30 seconds or more, all day and all night, thats going to cause a whole lot more water on the streets than you are anticipating...
Hi All : PLUG got the hiring sign out on the website for St. Gabriel, LA
Global hydrogen industry reports $75 billion in committed capital but climate targets at stake due to project delays
Sep 17, 2024
https://hydrogencouncil.com/en/global-hydrogen-industry-reports-75-billion-in-committed-capital-but-climate-targets-at-stake-due-to-project-delays/
California Hydrogen Business Council
7,916 followers
5 hours ago
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/california-hydrogen-business-council_hydrogen-hydrogenprojects-decarbonization-activity-7244382582765678592-fWj8/
The Hydrogen Council has published the Hydrogen Insights 2024 report and found significant progress has been made in the sector, with $75 billion in committed capital and a growing number of advanced projects.
The report had four main findings:
- Investments: Seven-fold increase in capital committed to hydrogen projects reaching FID in the past 4 years.
- Growing Project Maturity: Clear shift from announcements to advanced project stages.
- Navigating Uncertainty: Regulatory decisions and policy, or lack thereof, create challenges.
- Moving Forward: To accelerate decarbonization, an 8-fold increase of investments in hydrogen is required until 2030, compared to the current investment of USD $75bn past FID. Addressing this challenge calls for a joint effort by government and industry.
Banger - The Germany section was Huge, fully 1/3 of the exhibition.
Bosch likes to do things their own way, and felt they would have been diluted .
And don't just blame Sanjay and Twiggy. Marsh is the CEO and he should have acted as the CEO .
Andy's incompetence is why PLUG is circling the Toilet.
Bosch I would have considered as they are in the valves and monitoring technologies for gases as well as the fuel cells.
I hope it is a sign that for now PLUG Is being very picky as to what they spend their marketing budgets on.
I assume they were there last year and would start to be concerned if not there next year - but if they are still in the producing business then I will be very happy.
As you keep pointing out they have short term issues that need $$ to be resolved. Sanjay ( and Twiggy) talked Andy into being too greedy in their strategy, could have started small and funded things more easily. [Not that Andy needed too much encouragement]
Banger - None of those you listed are bulk Hydrogen producers.
Even Olin was there as a Hydrogen producer.
The only Hydrogen producer not visible in any way was PLUG.
So Jack
Were other hydrogen players there such as :
Bosch?
Ballard?
Bloom?
I know PLUG as a vertically integrated company covers more of the infrastructure for gas but would hope Bosch at least was present.
As a follow up to my previous post I found the following information, 1 liter or 1 kg water = 4,000 drops (see reference below). In my previous post I calculated that a Nikola hydrogen FCEV truck releases 1 kg water per mile driven. From the information below, one liter of water or 1 kg of water is 4,000 drops, so a Nikola hydrogen FCEV truck would release about one drop of water every foot traveled, not enough to be a concern for causing roads to freeze in the winter in northern regions, in my opinion.
By these drip estimates: One gallon = 15,140 drips. One liter = 4,000 drips. Source https://water.usgs.gov/edu/activity-drip.html
B_B - The big difference is that a hydrogen vehicle "exhales" much more water vapor than a human.
It is, after all, warm as it leaves the exhaust and disperses in the air in the same way as water vapor from human exhalation.
Hydrogen Cars in Winter: Will Exhaust Cause Roadway Ice?
June 1, 2024 6 By John Max
…
will ice buildup occur in a cold water vapor exhaust system or will it lead to sheet of ice forming on roadways?
Experts aren’t concerned
Those with experience with hydrogen fuel cells aren’t concerned about this issue, and there are many reasons for this. The first is that they know that conventional gasoline-powered internal combustion engines already produce a certain amount of water vapor in their emissions, and this is not a problem in those systems.
The next is that those familiar with fuel cells understand the volume of water vapor that is being produced by the systems. Unless the exhaust pipe for the water vapor were to be pointed directly down at the road and positioned close to the road surface – a design that is neither practical nor under consideration by any known vehicle manufacturer – then it won’t end up on the pavement in any meaningful way. It is, after all, warm as it leaves the exhaust and disperses in the air in the same way as water vapor from human exhalation.
…
https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-cars-exhaust-roadway-ice/8565024/
Not PLUG Related :
But Linde, Air Products and Air Liquide are all trade at or close to their ALL TIME HIGHS.
LINDE is one of the least shorted stocks in the world.
PLUG is in the Top Ten MOST Shorted stocks in the world.
IGM - Talk about leaving an ocean liner for a leaky Sun Fish.
PLUG is a very Broken Company and a very Broken Stock. At the Hydrogen conference last week, no one was painting a Rosey picture for Plug. The fact that PLUG was MIA spoke volumes.
It will take a great many skills and a new CFO to fix all that is broken at Plug, and I doubt Fullerton is a miracle worker. I have to question anyone who thinks they have management talent and moves to Latham, NY.
A Big Fish in a Dry Pond.
For now I am waiting on the DOE Dough. If we get No DOE Dough, it's game over for Plug.
WTM - Water Vapor, even heated water vapor, condenses into water / puddles as it cools, and even more so in winter/cold climes.
Fortunately we will never see the clouds and fog a rush hour of hydrogen cars would produce on a cold winter's morning.
Steve, I've often wondered the same. I believe there is a simple solution to this issue, use the excess heat from fuel cells to vaporize the water exhaust into water vapor, and thus a non-issue. It obviously costs time and money to engineer it into FCEV vehicles, and I'm not sure if it is done or not. The video of the hydrogen FCEV bus idling and forming a puddle of water from the exhaust, would indicate that these buses are not doing so, and that would be a problem in the winter time in northern places where the exhaust water would freeze. What I'm not sure about, is if that bus while on route would be spilling enough water to be a concern.
I've never done the calculation, but it could go something like this. A Nikola hydrogen FCEV truck travels about 8 miles on one kilogram of hydrogen, and one kilogram of hydrogen when consumed in a fuel cell would produce 9 kilograms of water (based on formula for water H2O, atomic mass for H = 1, and O = 16). So a Nikola truck would spill 9 kgs of water every 8 miles, or just over 1 kg of water per mile. Is that a lot or not, that's the part I don't know. How many drops of water per foot of road?
Steve - We studied the costs / economics of New Builds
Interesting, when we studied GSE's for a major manufacturer, battery electric beat hydrogen even when there was onsite hydrogen dispensers.
I had a question about water emission. What happens in the winter when these freeze on streets and you have ice patches? Would they cause a road hazard or need salt to melt on the roads?
Thing is Jack, Amazon already has the fueling sites there. As part of their 'Go Green" movement H2 still fits right in. I do not know how long an H2 robot would last before refueling versus a robot and the time it would take assuming both were automatically filled but assume it would be like forklifts and save time. Not doubting your study, but there could be other reasons and goals they are trying to obtain.
Fullerton has worked at very profitable and well run companies, with Amazon having almost unlimited resources...its almost hard to not do well under those circumstances...
with plug, hes going to have his work cut out for him...he will be dealing with a poorly run company with limited resources and almost no money...these are things he is totally unfamiliar with...
maybe he will do well...maybe he wont...too hard to say either way...but to point to his success at Amazon and think he can do well at Plug because of it?...i think a monkey could well at Amazon...
JB your thoughts and mine are the same when pertaining to Andy Marsh...what are your thoughts of Dean Fullerton as CEO of Plug??
Good NEWS : Buy This Hydrogen Stock. Best In Breed
Sorry, Nothing to do with PLUG :
https://seekingalpha.com/news/4152297-overweight-quality-stocks-with-positive-eps-revision-ms?mailingid=36827774&messageid=2900&serial=36827774.28176&source=email_2900&utm_campaign=rta-stock-news&utm_content=link-3&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha&utm_term=36827774.28176
SEPTA to try out hydrogen fuel cell buses as early as this fall
The 10-bus pilot is part of the agency's efforts to transition to a climate-friendly fleet. But it has attracted criticism from some environmentalists.
By Sophia Schmidt September 23, 2024
...
SEPTA’s 10 hydrogen buses will be fueled at the Midvale station in Nicetown. SEPTA signed a three-year contract for hydrogen from Plug Power, which opened a liquid green hydrogen production plant in Georgia this year. The fueler, its maintenance and three years worth of fuel delivery will cost SEPTA over $5.6 million.
...
https://stocktwits.com/B_B_/message/586824892
JB, thank you for the detailed and insightful response.
WTM - We did the original study in early 2023 for two major distribution centers our client was building (one on each coast).
Note : At that time, we did recommend fuel cells for the forklifts/heavy indoor material handling.
This year (first half of 2024) we updated and revised our study with updated pricing, for the five New Centers they are building. It is very difficult to make an economic case for hydrogen vs electricity in most applications. This is why Walmart and Home Depot still use batteries in their store forklifts. It is one third to one fifth the cost of hydrogen/fuel cells.
Note : The Comparative economics were even more skewed in 2024, but we still recommended fuel cells for indoor material handling.
JB, when was that "comprehensive study on material handling robotics" done?
JB, William is correct, the article mentions Plug Power.
Quote "SEPTA signed a three-year contract for hydrogen from Plug Power, which opened a liquid green hydrogen production plant in Georgia this year. The fueler, its maintenance and three years worth of fuel delivery will cost SEPTA over $5.6 million."
Link https://fuelcellsworks.com/2024/09/23/fuel-cells/septa-to-try-out-hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses-as-early-as-this-fall
- less warehouse space
- less vehicles/units
- refueled in just a few minutes
- require less maintenance
- more time in operation and less time out of service
- can carry more weight
- performance does not degrade in low temperature
- cost-effective
WTM - Nothing in that dated news will affect PLUG's share price. I read that story weeks ago, Bill's "news" is just a rehash .
PLUG does not make green hydrogen in the Philly area, and by the time there are hundreds of hydrogen busses, PLUG will be long gone.
WTM - How long can PLUG last if there is NO DOE DOUGH ?
JB, when was the study you referred to in your post performed?
Keep reading PLUG has a 5.6 millions contract to suppy the Fuel for the Buses
JB, I disagree. At a minimum, could be a potential Plug customer for green hydrogen. If not now, perhaps in the future, as they could potentially replace hundreds of diesel buses, with hydrogen buses.
Hi All this one may have already been posted : https://fuelcellsworks.com/2024/09/23/fuel-cells/septa-to-try-out-hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses-as-early-as-this-fall
B_B - Humans are just one component .
Run the numbers using real world variables and let us know if you can beat 3 to 1.
5 September 2024: the latest of which allows for fully automated refuelling
Jun 20, 2024: Notice in the BMW photo, a human.
Sorry Boys - My firm did a comprehensive study on material handling robotics for a major client, and humans and hydrogen can't compete .... Not Even Close.
Although I can't disclosure all of the details (a confidential study), when you add in the cost of an automated hydrogen dispenser, storage and most importantly the cost of any color hydrogen ; Fuel cells cannot compete with rechargeable batteries.
Steve - You don't need one dock for every robot . Think 4-5 robots per docking/recharge station, because these units recharge faster than they discharge.
Notice in the BMW photo, a human. No humans means electric power is the only opex, and electric power is one fifth the cost of hydrogen.
Good luck with your hydrogen Fuel Cell Roomba's and let me know when PLUG sells one.
ANOTHER MULAG.
wrong Jack. If you have 1000 robots needed and only 500 working at a time you might only need, say 750 refueling at different times to do the same work. Therefore, you save space and cost of the robots. The H2 robots may last longer and have shorter refuel times like do forklifts. There just maybe an economic answer here that we are not seeing.
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Page is currently being updated - watch for more information about their recent acquisitions and competitors
Welcome to Plug Power
http://www.plugpower.com/Home.aspx
Plug Power is the leading provider of clean hydrogen and zero-emission fuel cell solutions that are both cost-effective and reliable.
In 2020/21 Plug Power cemented two major partnerships
https://www.plugpower.com/plug-power-and-sk-group-partnership/
https://www.ir.plugpower.com/Press-Releases/Press-Release-Details/2021/Groupe-Renault--Plug-Power-Join-Forces-to-Become-Leader-in-Hydrogen-LCV/default.aspx
The architect of modern hydrogen and fuel cell technology, Plug Power is the innovator that has taken hydrogen and fuel cell technology from concept to commercialization. Plug Power has revolutionized the material handling industry with its full-service GenKey solution, which is designed to increase productivity, lower operating costs and reduce carbon footprints in a reliable, cost-effective way. The Company’s GenKey solution couples together all the necessary elements to power, fuel and serve a customer. With proven hydrogen and fuel cell products, Plug Power replaces lead-acid batteries to power electric industrial vehicles, such as the lift trucks customers use in their distribution centers.
Extending its reach into the on-road electric vehicle market, Plug Power’s ProGen platform of modular fuel cell engines empowers OEMs and system integrators to rapidly adopt hydrogen fuel cell technology. ProGen engines are proven today, with thousands in service, supporting some of the most rugged operations in the world. Plug Power is the partner that customers trust to take their businesses into the future.
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