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lol that would be cool but I would be afraid to do it. Ive probably paid 10k in these fees over the past 2 years. Paid 600 a couple times and 400 a few. Bunch of 200s and a lot of 125s.
Stockholm syndrome?
What I'm going to say now will sound naive, but...
Since the DTC fees might come weeks after the trade is settled at T+3, it may still be possible to catch the brokerage off guard by requesting a wire transfer of all the funds before the fees come in.
A clever way to kick a crooked brokerage's ass:
1) Open a CASH account, then pull the money leaving like $200 or so.
2) Buy 5000 shares of 9 subpenny non-DTC POS.
3) Buy 5000 shares of yet another non-DTC which also is so crappy as to be labeled non-transferable/worthless (no TA for 6 years), leaving like $2 in the account.
A month later, they'll charge $7 or so for holding a non-transferable stock. With no money in the account, they'll proceed to the sale of the stock...triggering a deadly chain reaction.
Its not just a Penson issue. Other brokers that use other clearing firms are doing it like Legent and Ameritrade has been doing restrictions for years for non DTC.
Hey ole boy. just put this link in your database..
http://www.dtcc.com/downloads/membership/directories/dtc/alpha.pdf
It may be old and needs updating but it is a start on something i am working on..
I hope to find brokers who are not at all involved with this mess and then put up a list of them but time is my issue at the moment.
It appears not only is Penson a problem but when you look at firms you have to make sure they do not use the DTCC list at all .. they may self clear but use DTCC and then your stuck again..
To me it is the 1% against us 99% and when we find one or two firms
who meet the need then we can approach them with a hand full of investors who know the risks and rewards.. Sure I am all good with
keeping the NShort sell and the cowboy CEOs out of the deal but hurting
regular folks just ticks me off. So we will see..
side note if your tech savvy you can find me and my site. I have a lot of readers and a lot of them like what I publish. Find it and then shoot me a pm if you sign up i will let you in.
glty
Pilot
We might have to resort to mediation cos the brokers ain't helping.
Of course, putting a debit account in the red is accounting fraud.
but instead of fixing the problems that cost us money they make it harder to trade stuff we already bought they are adding more insult to injury
FIX THE PROBLEM Already
Good question. I had a issue a long time ago with that with a broker. I put a small buy in for a shell but the broker had a glitch and a stupid system. They allowed market buys on shells which most brokers I have ever heard of dont allow it.(I dont remember having it a market anyways but they wounldnt accept my argument for that) And they allowed me to buy at extremely high prices on a market buy when I only had a few dollars in there to get some. It was cash account. So they tried getting me to pay thousands of dollars on a 30 dollar trade and I only had like 35 bucks cash.
I asked them how I could go thousands of dollars in the red with a cash account and they were stumped. They ended up eating the fees once I threatened them with going to the court house for mediation.
One question $hellKing. What if someone on a CASH account buys $25 or so worth of a non-DTC stock then sells it without having further money in the account (except for the sell-side commissions)? The broker would have to eat the fees for lunch? (as CASH accounts can't be in the red)
$GPGD has been Chilled for Deposit (asked several brokers) right after I bought the shares, even when there is no evidence of dilution either. 303M shares and the insider lockdown is completely obvious.
No info about $GPGD at the DTCC website either. The whole system is inconsistent and completely messy.
Yeah just another delusion/illusion of humans.
Well I hope this cycle ends. After restriction, an opening should come for us.
Methinks we could ALL do without the 'unkown' factor. Seems stocks run MUCH better when the o/s can be confirmed and especially, when it's found to be stable.
Same for me on $GPGD. The worst thing is that the Zecco idiots have taken the 10% 20-day ADV rule without the $50k limit. Zecco doesn't allow trading more than 10.000 shares right now unless the order is sent by phone (which I can't as my spoken English is too basic). Do you imagine trading like that in a flurry of activity? Wait it's seventy-no!! it's fifty-wait!!! it's eighty-three.
So far I've found out the whole formula. The NSCC deposit requirement for Penson (for stocks under $0.01) is $0.01*number_of_shares.
That means the requirements to set my sell order of 405000 shares would be $4050, far below the $50k limit that could trigger a buy-in. That rule however can screw the triple zero players which move several million shares.
Thats a good point too. Guess its good to look at it in other ways. This could be beneficial. Though it would take away that "unknown" factor that every human just loves in the pinks. Thinking there is some treasure to be found in a gagged TA and a diamond co.lol
Yep I know someone who cant even sell most stocks in their USAA account. It tells them the trades exceed the "daily limit".... Yeah like 5k shares exceeds anyones daily limit....
The brokers were saying there were too many fly by night TA's too. Everyone remembers BHUB and a bunch of other stocks that were using that Canadian TA....
Yup, that is definately one of the areas of fault in the whole system. Another is that they are even allowed to be gagged. If a company desires to be traded publicly, it should be an emphatic right that s/h's have access to the numbers. Period. Gag the TA, get halted.
I've gathered a few points which expose that Penson's behavior could actually be considered ILLEGAL.
It started with their recent penny stock policy change caused by NSCC illiquid requirement.
there should be more pressure for Transfer agents to do their job correctly and keep an accurate number of shares out there they are suppose to keep track of who owns a companies shares if suddenly shares show up in a person account and didn't come from someone else that owned them would be simple easy fix to find out who is selling shares that doesn't own them and catch the counterfeiter
"Transfer agents perform three main functions:
Issue and cancel certificates to reflect changes in ownership. For example, when a company declares a stock dividend or stock split, the transfer agent issues new shares. Transfer agents keep records of who owns a company's stocks and bonds and how those stocks and bonds are held—whether by the owner in certificate form, by the company in book-entry form, or by the investor's brokerage firm in street name. They also keep records of how many shares or bonds each investor owns.
Act as an intermediary for the company. A transfer agent may also serve as the company's paying agent to pay out interest, cash and stock dividends, or other distributions to stock- and bondholders. In addition, transfer agents act as proxy agent (sending out proxy materials), exchange agent (exchanging a company's stock or bonds in a merger), tender agent (tendering shares in a tender offer), and mailing agent (mailing the company's quarterly, annual, and other reports).
Handle lost, destroyed, or stolen certificates. Transfer agents help shareholders and bondholders when a stock or bond certificate has been lost, destroyed, or stolen.
"
They are already cleaning house with revokes and suspensions. My guess there will be a substantial reduction in shells to sift through in the coming years. Used to be able to go through 10 or 15k but prob will be a lot less later.
So we get a ton revoked then the non dtc so we will have a smaller playing field. Maybe all the scammers and counterfeiters will just move on. Guess thats why they have the whole new "transparent" marketplace theme now on PS.
It'll suck at first....for those who get caught in questionable securities.
Maybe so. I guess this will straighten out the market for us and less scamming shares out there. It will suck for many at first but will turn out to be good in the long run.
Guess its like red light traffic cams. probably get some accidents at first but in long run less pedestrians will get run over.
In view of the greater good, I think the DTCC is taking the rights steps, even if it does piss me off that I couldn't trade BBDA today.
Thats cool bc some of these cos look like legit revenue building cos. A lot of them are new issue stocks so I would imagine they can do a audit and get things in order, otherwise they really cant use the shell/co. Most brokers wont even trade them so no trades = no dollars for them on the open market.
IMO, the dilemma of the unregistered shares is correctable, but only after a complete audit of where all those shares went, and how they were sold.
With registered shares, there's a paper trail the SEC can fairly easily follow. With unregistered shares, a CEO could be selling heavily discounted shares to his 'consulting' nephew to help cover college tuition.
When a company registers shares, they are required to sell them only to accredited investors. Not so, with unregistered shares. That's in part, where the big problem lies....the distribution of those unregistered shares.
Yup, they send ya in a circle. No one wants to be open and honest about it. It's pretty frustrating when no one can give ya a straight answer. The company says one thing, the broker says another. Bottom line is, if ya can't trade it, ya can't trade it. Getting stuck in certain stocks may become a growing problem, with the way some of these companies are getting locked out.
Thats not such a bad rule I guess. Got to stop some of these RS offenders. I can see 1 after a RM but some people do them 5 or 7 times. These rules will slow them down and chill them.
If I remember reading Correctly any stock that R/S will have to become re DTC eligible but I don't think it is that hard of a thing get RE DTC eligible
This really sucks because I own some pink sheet stocks that were going to be huge but have been left in the gutter bc of the DTC issue. No doubt some of these would of been enormous runners.
Heck I have bought some non DTC stocks still recently. The list is pretty large. They have a lot of OTCQB shells that arent DTC eligible. I hope all new CEOS get this memo so from now on we dont have to worry about these issues.
I wonder if these companies that have sold unregistered shares can reverse those transactions? I got a few OTCQB stocks that havent really traded yet but are on the list. Some of them are over a dollar.
Yes they are but Penson charges the fees and claims a stock is non DTC when infact they are and wouldn't cost someone that must to trade
a few months back I was told by Zecco that PHAR was a non DTC stock and that I could not trade it cost me a bunch because I couldn't sell it when I wanted to.....
I emailed the company Phar and they found it was infact a problem with PENSON not allowing it even though they were DTC eligible
Penson and the DTCC are two entirely different entities and I highly doubt the DTCC is going to institute changes merely for Penson's sake. It's the DTCC's changes that have forced Penson to levy these new fees.
While I have no love whatsoever for Penson, they're not to blame for non-DTCC eligibility. That blame falls squarely in the lap of every publicly traded company guilty of stock fraud or unregistered shares (if there is even a difference).
You watch, the DTCC won't be the only one charging outrageous fees to clear questionable stocks. Come a day, no one will want to touch them. Not E trade, not Scottrade, not Fidelity. Not unless of course, you wanna pay $200-$700 p/trade.
THAT LIST ISnt correct penson adds one and leaves them there weather or not they are dtc or non dtc also penson wants you to think that it is because of these fake shares when infact they maybe behind the fake naked short selling from stuff I have read I would highly bet penson has been doing illegally stuff but now doesn't want to get caught so they act like the good guys trying to fight what they have infact been doing
Attn. ALL Pinksheet Investors/Traders!
Please read this in it's entirety. It concerns YOU!
Currently, some investors are experiencing considerable difficulties/expenses for trading in pinksheet stocks. Rest assured, these same problems will likely be coming to you/your own clearing house, be it in-house or otherwise, as the trade-clearing costs for pinksheet companies are fast becoming too unbearable for brokerage firms to absorb themselves.
While these 'issues' currently pertain to DTCC-cleared investors, it ultimately pertains to anyone who trades pinksheet stocks. IMVHO, the DTCC's actions are just the beginning to the end of ALL pinksheet companies that sell unregistered shares. The House of (crooked pinksheet) Cards is just beginning to fall.
Penson's non-DTC eligible stock issues:
After having been slammed exorbinent 'fees' twice by Penson for physical clearing, I have begun to understand why Penson has taken this course, and believe it may become an issue with all brokers, big and small, in due time.
While the full story is somewhat longer, the gist of it all stems from publicly traded companies that have sold unregistered shares, ie; shares not registered with the SEC. The DTCC (the clearing house for Penson) is finding some/many of these shares to be counterfeit and are now determining it is better to simply not clear electronic trades made on ANY company with unregistered shares in the market. Instead, the trade must be accounted for physically, which is where the exorbinent costs arise. These actions (physical clearing) saves the DTCC from the possibility of being stuck with bogus shares by, basically, using the principle 'better safe than sorry'.
It is likely that all other brokerage firms who clear trades themselves, will eventually follow suit. However, this will pose a major problem for them, as they will find they hold counterfeit shares and certainly won't want to be forced to cover that loss, if they cannot dump them elsewhere first. The DTCC is smart. They're ahead of the inevitable 'implosion'. They're eliminating their risk exposure first, before it becomes an 'across the board' dilemma. You won't find the DTCC holding any counterfeit shares. When all the other brokerage firms begin charging clearing costs, watch for the implosion of all non-reporting companies. Non-reporting companies will either be forced to begin reporting, or they'll fold for lack of funds required to become current.
While Penson is being casted as a crook for these exorbinent fees, the blame truly falls in the lap of every company that has issued shares without registering those shares with the SEC.
(For traders of pinksheet stocks, it may do well to know in advance if prospective or current positions in companies have ever issued unregistered shares. It is entirely possible to buy a DTC eligible stock today, only to have it delisted tommorrow, thereby incurring the exorbinent fees. If the trade-clearing issue becomes widespread, as it appears it will, you may find your broker (regardless of who they are) not willing to allow you to sell, ie; total loss. Kiss the value of your shares good-bye. Worse yet, to add salt to the wounds of your loss, those worthless shares will remain in your account, constantly reminding you of the dangers of pinksheet investing)
It is not inconceivable that stock can be counterfeited any more than real money can/has been counterfeited. We have all heard CEOs say they are not selling new shares despite the daily appearance of dilution. There may very well be truth to this, in some/many instances.
While the 'news' of counterfeit shares may or may not be new to you, you can rest assured the SEC does NOT want the practice to be publicly known, anymore than they wanted to acknowledge naked shorting.
Since the pinksheet market is minimally SEC unregulated, it has become the Wild, Wild West of the stock market, more than ever before. Investors clamour for SEC oversight, but fact is, the SEC is not going to oversee pinksheet stocks anymore than the DEA will oversee/regulate drug trafficking, or the ATF, gun-running. In other words, you're on your own. The Roundtable meeting scheduled (10-17-11) will likely result in very little, if anything at all. Billions of shares have been counterfeited and sold, and there is just no way to rectify that. Bottom line is, naked shorting and counterfeit shares are coming to a head and the DTC is the first to put their foot down.
Below is the most comprehensive list available of non-DTC eligible symbols, updated 10-13-11, by myself. Be aware that this list is continually growing as the DTC discovers companies that have issued unregistered shares.
Remember, this is currently only a Penson issue, but the heart of the problem lies with unregistered (and potentially counterfeit) shares, which virtually ALL brokerages must deal with sooner or later, due to high clearing costs and the inability to 'just pass it (shares) on to the next buyer'.
Pinksheets is the shark-infested waters of the stock market. If you swim with the sharks, expect to get bitten if you're lucky. Eaten, if not.
AAVG
ACHM
ADCS
ADOT
AEMD
AFTI
AGIJ
AKYI
ALGF
ALTO
AMNG
AMNE
ANDI
ANWM
APRM
AQUS
ATPT
AXGC
BEDA
BEHL
BIHC
BKPR
BLUG
BNPD
BRMC
BRZL
BVRG
BYOC
CAEJ
CCME
CDGT
CDIV
CDOI
CGFIA
CHJI
CIST
CLDR
CLYW
CMGR
CMGR
CNEX
COPI
COUV
CPHG
CPMCF
CTTD
CWRN
CYGX
DGMA
DGRI
DIAAF
DMTA
DTGP
DTSL
DVME
ECDP
ECMH
EDLT
EDWY
EFIR
EGOC
EHSI
ELCR
EMLL
EMPZ
EMXC
ENTS
EVSO
EWKS
EWPI
FFGO
FTRM
FNXC
GBRC
GETC
GELVD
GGII
GGMC
GHLV
GLER
GPPL
GRBG
GRDO
GRPS
GSLO
GSHN
GTLA
GTLL
HELI
HIRU
HLXW
HMGP
HNSS
HPNN
HRNF
HSCO
IDOI
IHGP
IMDS
IMJX
IMGR
INAR
INDR
INNP
INOL
ITCJ
IVVI
IVOI
IXMD
JVDTQ
KKUR
KORE
LCOL
LEXG
LFXG
LGSL
LHPT
LKEN
LLBO
LLEG
LVLV
MCCI
MCDA
MCLN
MDOR
MDRG
MDYO
MGLG
MHLI
MNDP
MNSI
MSGI
MSOA
MTEK
MVBY
MWIS
NSHJ
NTBS
NUBL
NWMT
NYMH
OCBM
ONCP
OPGX
ORRV
OPMG
OPTZ
OTOW
PCLO
PELE
PGCN
PHMB
PGNE
PIHN
POPN
PPJE
PPTO
PRMO
PRPM
PPYH
PSGI
PSRU
QMIN
QOIL
QURS
RBDC
RCCH
RGTX
RINO
RLAB
RMBM
RMTD
RSOU
SDRG
SGLS
SFIO
SLIF
SLRW
SMCE
SMHS
SMPP
SNRS
SNRY
SOLI
SOPV
SPLT
SPQS
SPZI
SSHS
SSTC
SREA
SUMM
TAON
TCLN
TEMN
TGGI
TIVU
TLAG
TSNP
TWVH
TYTN
UBEX
UBRG
UCHB
UDSG
UFBV
UNCO
UNGS
UNDT
UPCP
USOG
UTEM
VCTY
VIPR
VIVK
VLCO
VLXC
VSHE
WGAN
WHKA
WNCG
WRIT
WSCH
WWBP
WWNG
XDSL
XNEZ
Are there any updates to this list? Or is this it for awhile?
Thank you
Bill
I think penson is adding stocks to the list even if they aren't really non dtc
Cool, finally a board that may actually help me understand what this DTCC list is all about.
I'm in a stock that is on this DTCC list and I can freely trade it with no additional fees. Transfer of shares is immidiate despite the fact that I (as well my account) are located overseas. What is the significance of this list or the fact that a stock is listed there.
New non-DTC list UPDATED 9/16/2011
(thanks to Mikey aka xbigshot)
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=66764285
Great info!!! I am the boat so have not moved my account from Zecco but will be doing so asap.. But where to has anyone found a really good one that I can trade pennys without getting ripped off. Or has Pension and DTCC shut the market down with the new rules???
Who are you using to trade now???
Thanks..
Maybe a list on the sticky /??
Re: your PM-- If you would do that, that'd be AWESOME! Thanks a lot bro : ) And yes, it did recently run.
My guess those brokers will be leaving Penson.
What Triggered Pensons Problems...
whats funny about it is that 3 months later we are paying the price for their own stupid mistakes ;-\
> May 21 2011 Penson Clearing Firm Rattles Investors
LOL...don't worry, the more traders are informed the better it is, Penson can eat it :)
Max, sorry I duplicated your post/link... was just catching up on the topic and saw you had already covered it!
Thanks,
John
Penson Important Info Links
Penson is a clearing firm for lots of discounted brokers and causing lots of problems for otc/penny traders.
> Penson under investigation Over Possible Violations Of Securities Laws
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=66717518
> Multi Class Action Lawsuits Against Penson Worldwide
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=66717401
> Penson's restructuring plans & Letter of New Low price Security Policy
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=66717970
> MicroCap Stocks under a Dime "Article" (Non-DTCC / PENSON / Broker situation)
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=66687899
> Penson Discontinues Execution for Certain Non-DTCC Eligible Securities (Non-DTCC stock list & searh tool)
http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=66063696
$POS
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This is a board to keep track of all Pension/DTCC worthless securities that will/may be purged. This may vary depending on the brokers. Many of the Penson brokers are charging $7.50 each month per worthless stock that you own. So if you own 3 worthless stocks you will be charged $22.50 each and every month you hold them. They are also called non-transferable, so they may not let you transfer these holdings if you happen to find a non Penson broker and want to keep your shares....
Dear Valued Customer,
Starting January 2008, Penson Financial Services, Inc. will begin purging any worthless security on the DTCC Non-Transferable list (worthless 6 years or more). Clients who do not want to have their worthless securities purged may opt-out, but must do so by December 21, 2007.
Post any stock that you have been told by your broker to this board and I will keep a record of it in the IBOX.
THE LIST:
APGX AROU AQUX
BNEZ
CIBM CKDN CLDRQ CVTL
DLNKQ
FHCI
GVEC
HLXC
ICNT IMCX ITCC
KELLQ
NCRU NMFS
PSYC
RSVP
STCL
THDS
VERD
VLNT
WCEC WRSI
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