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lmorovan,
I saw it as an offensive remark, and I responded.
equating the words of NJMARK50 to those of God
wow, do you also worship him? LOL.
Get serious, please.
lmorovan,
You capitalized "Judge." To whom were you referring when you wrote that?
If you meant God, then I thank you for equating the words of NJMARK50 to those of God. Although NJMARK50 speaks truth and backs his statements with Scripture, he is not God.
If you did not mean God, then that statement was blasphemous.
The Judge has spoken:
http://www.investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=10676471
Typical religious fanatic response:
Posted by: NJMARK50
In reply to: whitemanfromtown who wrote msg# 5308
Date:4/10/2006 3:34:42 PM
Post #of 5358
WMFT: "Jesus loves me this I know"
All of this biblical discussion, one persons view on certain segments of the Bible vs. anothers. Isn't the most important message in the new testament Bible summed up from a title of a childrens song:
"Jesus loves me this I know"
Response: What if someone were to respond to you with 'that is not to be taken literally'?
In His Name,
NJMARK50
excel, LOL, I have a nasty habit of slicing down difficult concepts and ideas and put them in ordinary, plain and simple language. Will take notes from the books and explain them as I understand them.
Read two of them. Hard to get through but definetly worth the time.
From our sister doyourdd:
"Monsoonman: Elmo has been on the Bible board, go check it out...He not only twist's things about CDEX, he has been twisting God's word..Looks like he could get tossed off that board..."
Well, not tossed. Yet. But the post was deleted.
Last night I went to Barnes & Noble and purchased 3 books by Lee Strobel: The Case for a Creator, The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith. Initial review is: excellent material. Will share my impressions as soon as I get into the books.
Exposing the DaVinci Code by the same author, is expected to hit the shelves soon. Don't miss it.
lmorovan: Response to Signs of the Times
"Christ cannot contradict Himself by giving us specific signs that will precede His second coming and then all of a sudden, appear in the clouds before the signs are completed."
Response: I agree. The signs indicated in Scripture tell what must happen before His Second Coming.
However, It is difficult for me to understand how the Day of the Lord, which I believe commences at the Rapture, will be "as a thief in the night" if all we have to do is look for these events to be accomplished before He can return.
I believe the solution is that these are 2 separate events and there is no contradiction.
Leaving for church.
In His Name,
NJMARK50
When human interpretation enter in direct conflict with the clear, down to earth words of Christ, then Christ's words take preeminence. And Christ is vividly explicit in the signs of the end times and the consummation of His second coming in the first three Gospels. Christ was talking to His disciples, who at the time were the Church of Christ. And they were all Jewish. Christ was talking to Israel and through it to all who will believe, mainly, the Gentiles. There are no two plans of salvation, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. Christ told the disciples "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me". I have never read any exceptions from this statement of Christ.
Christ cannot contradict Himself by giving us specific signs that will precede His second coming and then all of a sudden, appear in the clouds before the signs are completed.
"Immediately after the distress of those days" ' the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
lmorovan: Response to Limitations of God
"I cannot believe in a God with limitation. He either is Omnipotent or He is not. He either is Omniscient or He is not. He is either Omnipresent or He is not. All of God's attributes are absolute, lest He is incomplete. I cannot believe that."
Response: I suggest you reexamine what you believe. You already have stated that your omniscient God forgets our sins. If that be the case, then how can he be omniscient?
"The rapture and the Second Coming of Christ happen at one time."
Response: The tribulation is referred to in Scripture as the 'time of Jacob's trouble'. Who is Jacob? It is Israel. This is the time when God concludes His program w/ Israel, not the Church. This 7 yr period is the Tribulation period, referred to as Daniel's 70th week.
Do you believe that Christ could return today? To state that He cannot, and that we must go through this 7 year period of God's wrath, denies it. Yet the early Church lived w/ the expectation that Christ could return immediately. (Imminency)
I believe that the promises made to Israel do not apply to the Church, and will ultimately be fulfilled.
I Thes 4.16 states that the resurrection of the Church takes place at the Rapture. The resurrection of Israel is associated w/ the coming of the Messiah (Is 26.19), the conversion of Israel (Rom 11.15), and the inauguration of the Kingdom (Lu 14.14-15), with the Tribulation coming before it (Dan 12.1-3).
If the Rapture & the Second Coming occur at the same time, and since none of these events have occurred, it could not happen now. As stated earlier, it appears that the early Church were consumed w/ the idea that the Lord could return immediately, not after 7 years of Tribulation. I believe they were correct.
"If God is not Sovereign to chose who will be saved, then God is not Sovereign."
Response: I need to disagree w/ you on this point. Are you stating that God was not Sovereign w/ Adam & Eve, but is now sovereign w/ mankind? If God is sovereign and chooses who is to be saved, then all He needed to do was the sovereign act of making sure that Adam & Eve never sinned. Yet billions of people are going to a Christless eternity of eternal torment because He didn't.
Are you saying that God's sovereignty was effected by the sin of man? God was, is, and always will be sovereign. But He chose to limit His sovereignty by allowing Adam & Eve to choose. Or, are you proposing that God chose to have Adam & Eve sin, therefore making Him the author of sin?
"From where I stand, God either is or is not"
Response: I agree. Either God was sovereign at the time of the Fall or He wasn't. Then it would appear that 1) He chose to make them sin and is the originator of sin, or 2) He limited His sovereignty to allow mankind to choose of its own free will. I believe the latter.
I must leave until next weekend. I will take a look at the other board, and see if I can respond to any questions there before I retire from the boards for the week. Have a great week.
In His Name,
NJMARK50
I cannot believe in a God with limitation. He either is Omnipotent or He is not. He either is Omniscient or He is not. He is either Omnipresent or He is not. All of God's attributes are absolute, lest He is incomplete. I cannot believe that.
_________________________________________________________________
The rapture and the Second Coming of Christ happen at one time. I have studies the pre-tribulation doctrine and find it inconsistent with the very words of Christ. When Christ talks about the end times, he is talking to the disciples, and through them, to us all. Never did Christ say that the believers will be taken away before the great tribulation, to the contrary. The Church will be on Earth during the whole tribulation, or Christ neglected to mention such an important event as a rapture before the signs of the end time. You can't have it both ways. Either Christ is right or He is wrong.
_______________________________________________________________
If God is not Sovereign to chose who will be saved, then God is not Sovereign. I cannot accept that. John saw the Books that were opened in the day of the Judgment, and he saw the Book of Life. All the names of the saved ones were in the Book, and not one more will be added nor will it be taken off of it. From God's perspective, past, present and future are all consummated things. And were consummated even before Creation.
Mankind has chosen, once and for all through Adam to go to hell. No man after Adam had any say in that. And without God's intentional purpose to save a people for Himself, no one could be saved. God does not improvise and changes His mind or plans as time goes by or as we compel Him to do so.
I am sorry we don't agree with certain concepts. From where I stand, God either is or is not. There is no middle ground in Him. And He never negotiates His attributes.
lmorovan: Response to God & Sin
"You say that it is not against God's nature to forget. I disagree for the simple reason that if He forgets anything, he is not All knowing."
Response: God can choose to limit some of His attributes. For example, He has chosen to limit His sovereignty by giving men a free will. Likewise, as you have stated, He has chosen to forget our sins, because when He looks upon us believers, all He sees is the blood of His Son.
But I believe His holiness is a different story. Being holy is like being pregnant, if I may use that analogy. A woman cannot be a little pregnant - she is either pregnant or not pregnant.
In regards to holiness, one is either holy, without any sin, or unholy. Once one commits one sin he is no longer holy. God could not choose to limit His holiness, because once He did, He would no longer be God. Therefore I must disagree w/ your analogy about my ability to commit a crime, because I have the sinful nature to do so. God does not.
Response to your comments regarding the Holy Spirit: Pls accept my apology for not understanding your points concerning the Holy Spirit. I made an incorrect assumption about what your were trying to say.
"Jesus never rebuked the Pharisees for not repenting."
Response: You are totally incorrect on this. In Matt 12.41, Christ states this: "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it; because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here."
Jesus is rebuking them because the Ninevites repented at the teaching of a foreign missionary, who only preached to them for 40 days, and yet, the Pharisees continued to reject the preaching of One greater than Jonah for 3+ years. True, he criticized them for doing wicked things, but the only wicked thing which condemns a person to hell is not accepting Christ as Saviour.
"Of course they didn't use those words. But it was them who developed the doctrine of election,...: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
Response: This passage is not referring to the rapture of the Church, but rather to the Second Coming of Christ w/ His Bride (Church) at the end of the Tribulation for the believers who survived through the Great Tribulation.
When discussing the "elect" we must be mindful of three things: 1) The unsaved are going to be held responsible for not accepting God's offer of grace & mercy; 2) God's election is according to His foreknowledge (1 Pet 1.2); 3) We are to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure;...". If election determined our final fate before the foundation of the world, then how do we make our election sure?
"...you cannot state that, before teaching them what is the Gospel, who are the lost, who are the saved, why did God elected some for Salvation and some for eternal damnation..."
Response: I did not say nor do I believe that God has predestined people to go to the lake of fire. Without free will, man is not a morally responsible sentient being.
"Now, if God's will is for all men to be saved, what could possibly prevent Him from doing so? Paul tells us about it in Ephesians 1:4,5: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will."
Response: God chose us to be 'holy & blameless' after we are saved. This verse does not imply that He chose some to be saved. And verse 5 states that He predestined those of us who responded positively to the Holy Spirit's call "will be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ,..."
Pls look at Romans 8.29 - "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son,..."
Does it make sense to say that God foreknew what He had already predestinated?
God's predestination of the elect could not precede His foreknowledge, for then He would not be omniscient. Likewise, His foreknowledge could not precede His purpose, for His purposes had always existed.
(Acts 15.18 - "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world ('aion' - 'eternity')." God has known from eternity what things would happen in the hearts and minds of men, and for that matter, in the entire universe.
I believe what "could possibly prevent Him from doing so" is the free will of man. God has chosen to limit His sovereignty by allowing men to willfully choose & thus accept or reject His offer of salvation.
In His Name,
NJMARK50
NJMARK50, this is getting really interesting.
You say that it is not against God's nature to forget. I disagree for the simple reason that if He forgets anything, he is not All knowing. He forgives all repented sins, past present and future, but He cannot forget them, because that would be a weakness. Furthermore, the sins we have committed in our lives are recorded in the Books in Heaven just as everything we ever say, do, think or feel. And those Books will be opened in the Final Judgment, and each will be judged according to what has done.
"The thought of God sinning is contrary to His nature & to His Word."
"Therefore, He could not sin."
Agree. But no where did I say that God sins.
Say, are you capable of killing a little child? Of course you are, just as anyone is. But just because you have that capacity doesn't mean that you will actually do it. Yet, because you don't do it doesn't mean you don't have the capacity to do it.
_______________________________________________________________
About the "firestorm", LOL. No need for it. Indeed, the Holy Spirit must be addressed as He, and I do so. Perhaps i did not express myself in a clear manner, but that doesn't mean that I will ever disrespect God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit by not capitalizing.
"When the Holy Spirit approaches a human being it causes one of two possible reactions: acceptance or rejection. It is not our choice to reject Him or accept Him. That has been preordained even before Creation. The Grace of God is indeed irresistible, but only the chosen ones are able to "feel" or "react" to it."
In the first instance I was referring to the Holy Spirit's approach, therefore I wrote "it", the approach. In he second instance I was talking about God's Grace, not God. That's why I wrote "it".
Then why did Christ Himself rebuke the Pharisees for not repenting?
Jesus never rebuked the Pharisees for not repenting. He rebuked them for doing wicked things. We must always remember that every time Christ speaks to someone in the Bible, He speaks to us too. When He criticize them for doing wicked things, He criticizes us for doing wicked things. The fact that they may not be part of the elect (we don't know that, and will not know that until we are present in the Final Judgment, considering that at least one of them, Nicodemus, may have repented of his sins and be saved) doesn't mean that Jesus didn't have to rebuke them. He rebukes everyone who sins, elect or not.
_______________________________________________________________
Response: Agreed, but as I stated, faith came before regeneration, not vice versa, which is what you are claiming.
Never did I claim that regeneration comes before faith, to the contrary.
Paul did not proclaim, nor did any of the other Apostles at any time for that matter, that if and only if one were elected He could be saved.
Of course they didn't use those words. But it was them who developed the doctrine of election, first spoke by Jesus in Matthew 24:30,31 and also in Mark and Luke: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
As a parentheses notice that in the verse the Son of Man is capitalized while further is referred as "he".
One might ask why don't those who share the Gospel w/ the lost say that the unsaved can be saved only if they are part of the Elect?
They should indeed. But you cannot state that, before teaching them what is the Gospel, who are the lost, who are the saved, why did God elected some for Salvation and some for eternal damnation and so on.
_______________________________________________________________
"Salvation begins with God enabling us to hear His call and receive the Holy Spirit who begins the process of regeneration"
Response: Can you support that w/ Scripture?
Of course.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.
"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people." Acts 2:17
"And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:21
The Father draws them. The Father will pour His Spirit (the Holy Spirit). Only those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Now, if God's will is for all men to be saved, what could possibly prevent Him from doing so? Paul tells us about it in Ephesians 1:4,5:
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will".
Have a good day(s) and come back soon.
Blessings to you and yours!
LMOROVAN: RESPONSE TO
"As support, I ask you, is God capable of forgetting anything?"
Response: I believe your analogy breaks down in that God forgets our sins and removes them as far as the east is from the west, but that is not contrary to His nature.
The thought of God sinning is contrary to His nature & to His Word. Again, James 1.13 - no man is tempted of God & God cannot be tempted w/ evil.
Job 34.10 - "Far be it from God, that He should do wickedness, and from the Almighty, that He should commit inequity."
Hab 1.13 - "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst look on inequity.
Scriptures thus states that God's character cannot commit, behold, or look upon sin. Therefore, He could not sin.
Jesus described His Father in Matthew as 'perfect'. Being perfect He would not be capable of sinning. Adam & Eve were sinless & innocent, but not perfect. They were created w/ the ability to choose between good & evil, and, unfortunately, chose to disobey God.
What we must understand is that we cannot understand the character traits of an Infinite Being. Many believe that God's traits limit each other. For example, His love is limited by His holiness, so therefore He must punish sin in spite of His love.
I believe this thinking is in error. God's traits somehow are not compromised at all. He is always all-loving. He is always all-holy. How these attribute coexist, I cannot comprehend, but they do.
"When the Holy Spirit approaches a human being it causes one of two possible reactions: acceptance or rejection. It is not our choice to reject Him or accept Him. That has been preordained even before Creation. The Grace of God is indeed irresistible, but only the chosen ones are able to "feel" or "react" to it."
"Response: This is going to start a firestorm, but let's do it!"
Just a quick comment first. The Holy Spirit is part of the Triune God, and therefore should be addressed as "He", not "it". Matt 28.19 says: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Since Scripture states we are to baptize in one name, not names, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are co-equals in the Godhead, yet have different roles.
Let's discuss the idea that it is not our choice to reject Him or accept Him. "Yet, how can they accept something that have not been enabled to accept?"
Response: Then why did Christ Himself rebuke the Pharisees for not repenting? According to your line of thinking, Christ is indeed criticizing them because He had not bestowed upon them the ability to accept what He was saying. That makes no sense!
"...because the Bible tells us so, we must accept that, in His Sovereign decision, the jailer and his household were part of the people predestined to Salvation."
Response: Agreed, but as I stated, faith came before regeneration, not vice versa, which is what you are claiming. Paul did not proclaim, nor did any of the other Apostles at any time for that matter, that if and only if one were elected He could be saved.
One might ask why don't those who share the Gospel w/ the lost say that the unsaved can be saved only if they are part of the Elect?
"Salvation begins with God enabling us to hear His call and receive the Holy Spirit who begins the process of regeneration"
Response: Can you support that w/ Scripture? I concur that salvation is of God only. However, I do not see in Scripture the idea that God enables 'us to hear His call & receive the Holy Spirit who begins the process of regeneration'. I see that the Holy Spirit calls 'all men', that God 'is not willing that any should perish', and that God's desire is that 'all men through Him might believe.'
I must bow out of our discussions until this weekend. God has graciously given me a little downtime where I have been able to check out the boards & respond. I now must return to the work at hand.
In His Name,
NJMARK50
NJMARK50, I had all day a warm and fuzzy feeling in expectancy to your reply. For some reason I cannot explain, I was looking forward for your answer like a child looking forward to receive a precious gift. And you sharing your time and wisdom with me, and the others I guess, is indeed a precious gift.
You say you are surprised that I believe God has the capability to sin, and I understand why. It was never meant to affirm that God would ever sin. That is absolutely impossible because He would cease to be God, and that is yet another impossibility. The human languages cannot express certain concepts, and of course, I could always be wrong when trying to do so. We try hard to understand certain limitations that God Himself has, especially in view of the universally accepted concept that God is Omnipotent. And Omnipotence cannot place limitation because if it does, then it is not Omnipotence anymore.
This was the perspective I wrote those words. Perhaps if you would have continued the statement with the rest of its context it may have been easier to grasp.
As support, I ask you, is God capable of forgetting anything? Yet we are told that when we repent of our sins and turn around from our sinful ways and accept the gift of Salvation freely offered by our Lord Jesus Christ, God will cast our sins in the deep of the sea and remember them no more. Is He actually forgetting them? I don't think so, not in the terms of human forgetfulness. God, in my opinion, will never ever hold any of our sins against us, and that is what I understand by God forgetting our sins.
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By "doing any good of ourselves" I meant doing any good that could come out of ourselves. And likewise, I meant doing any good that could be seen as good by God's standards, not human. Of course we can do good. Even secular people can do and do good. I stated that "Unless we are regenerated by the Power of the Holy Spirit, we are incapable of doing any good of ourselves,". I do not believe I stated that we must first be regenerated before responding to the drawing of the Holy Spirit. It is obvious that if the Holy Spirit causes the regeneration, it is He who must start and perform the regeneration, hence, His call or drawing occurs first. If my words were not clear, I must apologize. The sequence of events in the process of Salvation is: God enables us to hear His "voice"; God calls us; the Holy Spirit enables us to hear the call; the regeneration process starts.
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We are all born as a triune being, body, soul and spirit. In His Eternal Wisdom and Sovereignty, God has predestined a people for Salvation. When the Holy Spirit approaches a human being it causes one of two possible reactions: acceptance or rejection. It is not our choice to reject Him or accept Him. That has been preordained even before Creation. The Grace of God is indeed irresistible, but only the chosen ones are able to "feel" or "react" to it. The Pharisees and the people in Jerusalem were Israelites; they did know the law, some because they spent their lives studying it, some because were taught by the others. Yet, how can they accept something that have not been enabled to accept? Just as a magnet attracts a metal object, the Holy Spirit attracted the ones that were chosen by God for Salvation, and rejected the others. I know it's not an easy concept to grasp or fully understand, but when I encounter a concept that goes beyond my human capability to understand, I pull myself out of it and try to see it from God's perspective, from a perspective of total and absolute sovereignty. My personal capability to understand or not becomes irrelevant.
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We do know that the jailer and his household were saved that night. And because the Bible tells us so, we must accept that, in His Sovereign decision, the jailer and his household were part of the people predestined to Salvation. (Please also notice that only the KJV of the Bible states "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..." while most other say "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ...")
As I pointed before, Salvation begins with God enabling us to hear His call and receive the Holy Spirit who begins the process of regeneration.
May His Name be always praised!!!
lmorovan: Response to God & Sin
"Likewise, does God have the capability to sin? Of course He does."
Response: I am surprised that you believe that. One of the attributes of God is His 'omni-holiness'. He is all holy & incapable of sin, even if He wanted to, which He does not.
"...just as He didn't impose His will on Adam and Eve, He will not impose it on us."
Response: I could not agree w/ you more.
"Unless we are regenerated by the Power of the Holy Spirit, we are incapable of doing any good of ourselves," & "...But His offer is so overwhelming that it is irresistible and we have no other choice but to follow."
Response: What do you mean by 'doing any good of ourselves'?
I would agree that we are unable to do any acts which would merit us salvation. But, if you are saying that we are unable to respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit, without first being regenerated, then I would ask you where in Scripture does it state that?
As I stated on another board, how is it then that Stephen chastised the Pharisees, and Christ Himself rebuked the residents of Jerusalem for resisting the Holy Spirit? If grace is irresistible, then were Stephen & our Lord wrong? Hardly! God's offer of salvation was not "so overwhelming" that these people could not resist it. Pls give me your interpretation of these two accounts.
Paul, in responding to the Philippian jailer in Acts 16.31 says this: 'Believe on ('upon the basis of') the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...'
Pls note that Paul did not say that because the jailer had been first regenerated, he was saved, but rather stated that he must believe first then he would be saved. So faith precedes regeneration, not vice versa.
In His Name,
NJMARK50
NJMARK50,
RESPONSE: Are you implying that when we sin, it is God's will that we sin & we have no choice because of it?
Was it God's will that Satan tempt Eve? Was it God's will that Eve fell into the temptation? Was it God's will that Eve caused Adam to sin? I believe it was not. But, because God created Adam and Eve with a perfect nature, the free will, the will to chose between good and evil was also part of their perfection. The same applies to Lucifer when he was created perfect, and that perfection included the free will of choice.
Does Satan have the capability to do any good? Of course he does. But doing good is not in his sinful nature, actually, it goes against his own nature. Satan would cease to be Satan if he did anything good.
Likewise, does God have the capability to sin? Of course He does. But committing a single sin is not in His Holy nature, actually, it goes against His own nature. God would cease to be God if he committed the slightest sin.
The day Adam and Eve decided to exercise their free will by disobeying God's commandment, they ceased to be the perfect creation God meant them to be. Through the fall, mankind chose to follow Satan and that day Satan became the ruler of the world.
It was not God's will that mankind became evil. But just as He didn't impose His will on Adam and Eve, He will not impose it on us. And we will continue to do what our nature is, that is, continue to sin.
"The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." Psalm 14:2,3
Unless we are regenerated by the Power of the Holy Spirit, we are incapable of doing any good of ourselves, but all kinds of wicked and sinful acts. Even our best actions are as filthy rags before God.
That is why God has called those He elected even before creation to hear His voice and head His calling. Even then, He doesn't forces us to follow Jesus. But His offer is so overwhelming that it is irresistible and we have no other choice but to follow.
Any action of free will could change things that could affect many people, either for good or bad. That would imply that God would have to constantly and continuously change His Sovereign Will, to adjust it to the changes people effect in His plan. And that would imply that God's original plan was not perfect or incomplete, which is, by all means, an oxymoron.
Urgent Action Required on "Multicast Must-Carry" Legislation
http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7.html?nid=56
Where is the churches heart? Why don't people feel welcome?
First u need to look at where their money goes..........
http://investorshub.com/boards/read_msg.asp?message_id=10014740
CharleyMike, I agree to a point. God decision is always the first and the last one. But I believe, in this case, it is our responsibility and duty as followers of Christ to do so. If we don't bring them in, who will? They will never come by themselves, we have made sure that they are rejected, forgotten, neglected, despised, ignored and unwanted.
And we call ourselves Christians?
excel, good answer. Even as the obese are allowed in the Church (gluttony is also a sin), so should be all other sinners as well. The problem that arises is:
Most sinners (smokers, drunkards, prostitutes, drug addicts, homosexuals, etc.) feel intimidated by the Churches. Why is that? They all believe that the Church is for the righteous, and even those who don't, have been rejected many times by the very members of the Church. (Shame, shame, shame)
Have you ever seen a Church sign that says "all sinners are welcomed"? Or "if you are not a sinner stay away"?
I believe if Jesus would return "incognito" He will never enter a Church, He will hang around with the homeless, the drug addicts, the prostitutes and homosexuals.
"BTW. Should put this ? on Bible board also."
Please, do so.
You and your trick questions. LOL!
If they aren't allowed I'll never step inside of that church.
Let's put it this way.
Jesus main work after there was a group of believers were who?
He didn't come to heal the well.
BTW. Should put this ? on Bible board also.
Don't you reckon that's God's decision?
Actually, we should be trying to get them there, and keep 'em there long enough, or coming back often enough, for the Lord to help them overcome those things, if that's his will, and their desire.
Y'know, even if they think they have no intention of changing, the exposure to those who have would probably be good for them.
I don't believe the departure point is important on this journey. It's method of transportation and the arrival at the destination that counts.
"Believe, and you shall be saved!"
Nothing else matters, or in the words of some long forgotten oracle: "All else is vanity".
Bring 'em on in. Maybe, by example, and with His help, we can show them a better way.
Should a smoker be allowed in the Church? Or a drunkard? Or a prostitute? Or a drug addict? Or a homosexual/lesbian?
Anybody got to see the series "Jerusalem Countdown" by John Hagee. It's mind boggling and so true. We are indeed living the end times.
Larry I take it that website is yours?
www.ChristianParents.com
Have to check it out when I'm not so tired.
larice, absolutely agree. Given the flexibility of some "poetic license" that add many graphic, historic and cultural details to enrich the story, it certainly brings us to appreciate te abundance of teachings regarding the life of Abraham.
I saw it. Abram is one of the best. A man can learn a lot if he pays attention to follow that show. I'm getting all my family to see it and discuss some of the turning points and crisis points in that story. Lessons for anyone who cares about living.
Larry Rice
www.ChristianParents.com
anybody got a good one to buy in the am Let me know
lol. I do like this one show with these two 20 somethings that are essentially world touring.
There is no such a thing as the perfect church, the perfect ministry, the perfect channel or the perfect network. Where ever we go, we will always find imperfection. I question everything and everybody and confront it with the Word of God.
I am particularly against "circus" like ministries such as the one Benny Hinn and a few others perform. Usually I have them on mute and watch or hear other messages while they are on. But they are in minority and last only a little time.
I cannot chose to ignore teachers and preachers like John Hagee, Rod Parsley, Joel Olsteen, Jessie Duplantis, Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort, David Jeremiah, Greg Laurie, Charles Stanley, Luis Palau, Max Lucado, James Kennedy and so many others.
You ever get the chance to watch the dude who started "The Fathers Love Letter" make sure u do.
I know he comes on there every once in a while.
Benny? Don't get me started. LOL!
Yep. Just so sad the others have to turn it into a circus.
um. yea. I watch it for kicks often and cause Im to cheap to get cable so have just ABC and TBN. I particularly like the healers ... they suggest what to do or how to react then "heal" and the healy follows the blatent suggestion .. then everyone goes "ahhhhhh"
--- Benny Hinn is particularly funny.
I agree that not all programs are strictly following the teachings, but most of them do. I do what Paul told us to, take the good and discard the bad. It is by the power and work of the Holy Spirit that we are able to discern. But there is a wealth of teaching and preaching that is helping me to grow and understand.
Good luck with your board. I don't watch that network very often due to some of the ones on it ruining it for the rest using God's name for a personal piggybank.
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